Chinese Aero Engine information thread

[Beast]

Notice in the last min of the video, he mention the domestic build engine has an increase of thrust of 50% compare to its predecessor of F-7P. F-7P used WP-13 engine which has a dry thrust of 44kN and after burner of 64kN.

Powerplant: 1 × Liyang Wopen-13F afterburning turbojet

• Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,921 lbf)
• Thrust with afterburner: 64.7 kN (14,550 lbf)

If a 50% increase will mean 66kN dry thrust, While after burner is may close to 90kN.

We have seen the CCTV documentary of Shenyang Liming making WP-14 kunlun engine which a project never abandon like many think recently. And its likely equipped plane is JL-9G. J-8F production line has ended. It is very unlikely they are continue such powerful engine for a discontinued plane. JL-9G do not equipped with a obsolete engine like WP-13. It is equipped with powerful WP-14 Kunlun engine and its 50% more powerful than previous engine.

The video also mention it is precisely the powerful domestic engine that enable JL-9G to perform very well in flight. I think precisely the good performance and low maintenance of JL-9G that enable it to be accepted as one of the main advance trainer of PLAAF. Same as the reason why Sudan buys this plane for its AF. Such powerful engine may even enable to cruise at near Mach 1 speed. Excellent thrust to weight ratio. JL-9G is a plane not to belittle.

 

[Deino]

Which means WS10 will never fit on J10 in volume right?

I don't think so and consequently I'm eagerly awaiting any images of the next batch.

Concerning that hybrid-WS-10/AL-31-look alike ... there's plain and simple no proof (but I will never argue with the fans of this theory). Like I said so often, You cannot mate a certain core of engine A + the nozzle of engine B. Each part has to be designed and optimised specificly. therefore each engine esp. from different manufacturers is different, regardless what some say.

Deino

 

[帅的一匹]

I don't think so and consequently I'm eagerly awaiting any images of the next batch.

Concerning that hybrid-WS-10/AL-31-look alike ... there's plain and simple no proof (but I will never argue with the fans of this theory). Like I said so often, You cannot mate a certain core of engine A + the nozzle of engine B. Each part has to be designed and optimised specificly. therefore each engine esp. from different manufacturers is different, regardless what some say.

Deino

I never believe the WS10 core with Al31 Petal story, that's why I want to confirm with rcrmj. Is it because Russia had TOT Al31FN to China, or let's put in another way, China had reverse engineered the Al31.

Or maybe China inducted thousands of AL31FN?

J-10B/C do not used AL-31FN engine. There are domestic made uprated hybrid engine that only external looks like AL-31FN.

AL-31FN engine cannot give the kind of 145kN > thrust required by PLAAF. Russian has no means to uprate the engine to help China project. There are basically the same engine used on J-20.

What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?

 

[Deino]

I never believe the WS10 core with Al31 Petal story, that's why I want to confirm with rcrmj. Is it because Russia had TOT Al31FN to China, or let's put in another way, China had reverse engineered the Al31.

Or maybe China inducted thousands of AL31FN?

To admit I'm still not sure but from all i know there seems to be indeed the capability in line with the J-20's engine to manufacture all or maybe all important parts of the AL-31FN locally. I MO it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished by reverse-engineering, as such I expect indeed some sort of ToT, if not a licenced co-development of an uprated engine.

What's special of Al31 nozzle that We must copy it!?

Surely only to fool such AL-31FN-supporters like me

 

[帅的一匹]

If WS10b with silver nozzle can produce more than 145KN thrust, then why we need Al31FN petals?

To admit I'm still not sure but from all i know there seems to be indeed the capability in line with the J-20's engine to manufacture all or maybe all important parts of the AL-31FN locally. I MO it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished by reverse-engineering, as such I expect indeed some sort of ToT, if not a licenced co-development of an uprated engine.



Surely onyl to fool such AL-31FN-supporters like me

I think those AL31FN are bought off the shelf from Russia, that's it.

I'm a pessimistic.

Is there any possibility Saturn joint manufacture Al31FN in China for J10b/c?

As we have mammoth market to fulfill.

I prefer to believe what rcrmj told me.

there are also rumors that CAC is a big fan of Russian Al31FN, they don't like SAC's WS10 series.

Also I think it's related to the production capacity of WS10 engine.

Still need patience to wait.

 

[rcrmj]

J-10B/C do not used AL-31FN engine. There are domestic made uprated hybrid engine that only external looks like AL-31FN.

AL-31FN engine cannot give the kind of 145kN > thrust required by PLAAF. Russian has no means to uprate the engine to help China project. There are basically the same engine used on J-20.

no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs

 

[帅的一匹]

no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs

Why we don't fit WS10G on J10c? Production capacity?

Said WS10b flying with J20 has 145KN plus max thrust? Someone claim its 155KN.

So many ?????in my head

@rcrmj please help out

Beg you please

 

[rcrmj]

Why we don't fit WS10G on J10c? Production capacity?

Said WS10b flying with J20 has 145KN plus max thrust? Someone claim its 155KN.

So many ?????in my head

@rcrmj please help out

Beg you please

I'd be a top brass if I'd know all of these infos`````well, I dont want say or predict on things that I have no clue`````so, everything is according to plan, please be patient```

and on this planet and at this very period US is the only benchmark of our defense technological advancement````Russia, Europ and Israel are all past tense

 

[Beast]

no, there are Al-31, and the ones used on J-10B/C or J-11B dont have 145kn thrust`````the most powerful ones we have at the moment is around 140KN, and its a WS-10G, but not used on any in service J-10B/Cs

No, the J-10B/C has different thrust requirement since it's single engine. Same as J-15B which require more thrust to allow higher take off payload unlike J-16, J-11B which do not require such powerful engine since they do not require to take off from carrier. Russian AL-31F engine cannot satisfy Chinese engine thrust requirement plus Russian has already stated they will not sell more high thrust engine to China and it need to tie with the whole package deal of Su-35. There is a reason why we have the su-35 saga which drag so long and only ink on early 2016. The waiting of Russian engine will be too long for any usage in PLAAF.

And now you claim it's Russian AL-31F engine which is no logic.

China aviation realize the need for competition between engines in order for China engine industries to prosperous. They allow to different engine project to run together and compete with each other. Competition will spur creativity and productivity.

Domestic made AL-31F hybrid and WS-10 engine compete against each other. J-10B/C can never fly with Russian engine. Becos it do not satisfy PLAAF requirements.

 

[rcrmj]

No, the J-10B/C has different thrust requirement since it's single engine. Same as J-15B which require more thrust to allow higher take off payload unlike J-16, J-11B which do not require such powerful engine since they do not require to take off from carrier. Russian AL-31F engine cannot satisfy Chinese engine thrust requirement plus Russian has already stated they will not sell more high thrust engine to China and it need to tie with the whole package deal of Su-35. There is a reason why we have the su-35 saga which drag so long and only ink on early 2016. The waiting of Russian engine will be too long for any usage in PLAAF.

And now you claim it's Russian AL-31F engine which is no logic.

China aviation realize the need for competition between engines in order for China engine industries to prosperous. They allow to different engine project to run together and compete with each other. Competition will spur creativity and productivity.

Domestic made AL-31F hybrid and WS-10 engine compete against each other. J-10B/C can never fly with Russian engine. Becos it do not satisfy PLAAF requirements.

you cant argue with facts and reality, there is no such imaginary WS engines used on J-10B/C or J-15s``and your 'needing more thrust' for B/C or J-15 is cute``but do you have the detailed calculation of 'how much' more trust does B/C or J-15 need in order to be able to 'fly'? and why they 'need' that 'extra'?

the landskape of China's turbofan engine industry is not what you have pictured in your mind with rumors```we dont have such 'luxury' like the U.S to have two sets of projects to compete with one tender especially in turbofan industry!

and as I said long before and the fact about importing Su-35 is far from what you can pin on the 'engine issue'! 你以为35上面的飞、火、推就真的那么厉害么？ 土鳖早就做到飞、火、推、控一体化的技术了，全球目前独此一家，而且是真正的一体化！

 

[Beast]

you cant argue with facts and reality, there is no such imaginary WS engines used on J-10B/C or J-15s``and your 'needing more thrust' for B/C or J-15 is cute``but do you have the detailed calculation of 'how much' more trust does B/C or J-15 need in order to be able to 'fly'? and why they 'need' that 'extra'?

the landskape of China's turbofan engine industry is not what you have pictured in your mind with rumors```we dont have such 'luxury' like the U.S to have two sets of projects to compete with one tender especially in turbofan industry!

and as I said long before and the fact about importing Su-35 is far from what you can pin on the 'engine issue'! 你以为35上面的飞、火、推就真的那么厉害么？ 土鳖早就做到飞、火、推、控一体化的技术了，全球目前独此一家，而且是真正的一体化！

Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.

Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?

If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.

Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.

If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.

China definitely has a lot of luxury of having multiple project to improve, even the so called mysterious WS-14 kunlun engine which thought to be cancel, is still exist and probably equipped in large number for PLAAF JL-9 advanced trainer. It's thrust Level is 50% more than its predecessor. Quite an achievement.

 

[帅的一匹]

Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.

Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?

If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.

Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.

If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.

The problem is that China can't produce the core of Al31, and we also not interested in doing so.being patience, its production scale problem.

 

[Beast]

The problem is that China can't produce the core of Al31, and we also not interested in doing so.being patience, its production scale problem.

The core is fan blade. I think I do not need to explain further. If you see the recently documentary of shenyang liming factory talking abt the 2 technician. The most difficult parts to
produced is the fan blade which need to withstand the extreme high temp inside the engine while still need to repeatly function well.

You like it or. not , the engine on J-20 is local assemble and manufacture engine. Then why such engine cannot be apply on J-15 or J-10b/c Al-31FN since the engine seems to share similar dimension?

 

[rcrmj]

Sure you know J-10B/C is gearing towards matching eurotyphoon and Rafael which both have high thrust and supercruise. Russian AL-31FN 125kN engine fitted will not meet the criteria.

Same as J-15 need to take off from short skip of bow of carrier. How to have more payload? Definitely by having a more powerful thrust. Tell me why J-11B and J-16 are fitted with WS-10 engine while others are not?

If you used some basic common sense. My theory fits best.

Russian is weak in metallurgy but not design. The weak material of fan blade by Russian means lower lifespan and less thrust but their design of AL-31F may still leaves a lot of room for improvement.

If China with many achievement in metallurgy tech incorporate into AL-31F, I am sure the improvement of AL-31F will be significant. The BS of China fan blade has low lifespan and less tolerant are just repeated nonsense from
China slayer. If local China factories can supply fan blade to GE and PW engines. China fan blade technology has already reached a certain top level comparable to west. By applying this to compensate Russian weaknpoint(metallurgy). China will have a much superior 100% made in China engine compare to Russian AL-31F engine.

如果你真的要说常识，那么你这些所谓的‘theory’根本站不住脚，圈内的人根本不会像你一样考虑问题的。什么推力高了一点就可以超巡，什么筷B和中秋上了太行那么飞鲨跟棍B也一定要上太行·····我问你，如果土鳖上千架的3代跟3代半机都要等着刚刚成熟的太行（也就近两年），就它那一两条生产线能搞到猴年马月？你知道现在军队的压力有多大么？你知道90年开始到几年前空军和海军怎么被美帝调戏跟侮辱的么？这些耻辱的事情你到底了解多少？每一年跑废掉的发动机有多少要补上的你知道么？

棍B的研发不是为了要对付某一种或者两种鸡鸡，它需求来自于PLAAF战略和战术上面的需求，国土防空的需求，技术能力的需求跟经济实力的需求。还有不要说双风能超巡的事情了，太不专业了。四代机的超巡跟它们的偶尔超巡，或者加力超巡根本是两回事情，西方媒体拿这些来吸引眼球打广告，你就不要听风就是雨的瞎起哄了。照你这么说我们现在的J-10A也可以超巡，而且还不慢。还有对于真正的超巡，推力只是一部分，而且不是最重要的一部分，气动设计才是知道么。肥电的推力吓得惊人，但是由于它发动机涵道比和气动的原因，它是超巡不起来的，超音速飞行都困难，就是起来效率也低！

再讲到滑跃的J-15，它现在就用31系列的，而且起降性能真的不赖，没比弹射的超虫差多少···载7吨多的弹药在前点起飞一点问题都没有，9吨的都飞过！（7吨多的有效载荷可以有效完成很多不同任务了）一架飞机在航母上起降的效率跟很多指标有关，推力只是一种（特别对于滑跃来讲），比如说上扬角，风俗，航速，加速等等的都有关系。更何况J-15以后主要会在弹射航母上服役，推力的要素更加的缓解了（不是说不重要）····所以你这个论点也站不住脚！

俄罗斯（苏联）的材料不行，我们的就行了？十几年前我们就是一片空白，人家搞了50年的材料学和材料冶金工业你觉得以土鳖国企那种尿性能十几年赶上去么？你知道冶金行业是被国企长期垄断的，他们不像国家重点军工企业，上面有明确的指标压着的，关系到国家安全，所以在航空、航天和舰船领域会有很好的发展（但是之间出了很多狗血的事情，绊倒一大批老顽固的事情就不说了）。

但是造一架飞机跟发动机是一个国家的整体工业实力的体现，冶金和机械精密制造往往是我们最弱的，我们跟美帝最大的差距也就在这里。我可以这么跟你说，就算现在米帝把F-119的全套图纸拿过来，我们做出来的F-119也根本达不到他们10年前的指标跟性能！我们在材料的耐久度，部件的紧合度上面差距还很大。前线的朋友经常吐槽，飞着飞着就掉东西了，拆开一看这个裂了那个断了··········所以我们有现在这样的成绩实属不易，庆幸的是会越来越好，体制内的大力改革，再加上有大量的民营企业做的零部件被采用（通过各种渠道进口的西方部件也很多！）··我们的雷达，光电，感应为什么会发展的那么好是有原因的。

作为军迷想自己国家好无可厚非，积极乐观的态度也很好。但是现实不是我们一厢情愿的，就像我以前说过，土鳖现在的军工没有像有些人想象的那么不堪，也不像有些人意淫的那样好！我们有些好的绝对世界领先，但是落后的还是有很多，更多的是以前拉下来的东西，现在都在恶补当中！

还有最后我想再说一下棍B/C或者目前的J-15都是用31系列的，别再意淫WS了····以后有可能会上WS，但绝对不会是现在这些服役了的！

 

[帅的一匹]

如果你真的要说常识，那么你这些所谓的‘theory’根本站不住脚，圈内的人根本不会像你一样考虑问题的。什么推力高了一点就可以超巡，什么筷B和中秋上了太行那么飞鲨跟棍B也一定要上太行·····我问你，如果土鳖上千架的3代跟3代半机都要等着刚刚成熟的太行（也就近两年），就它那一两条生产线能搞到猴年马月？你知道现在军队的压力有多大么？你知道90年开始到几年前空军和海军怎么被美帝调戏跟侮辱的么？这些耻辱的事情你到底了解多少？每一年跑废掉的发动机有多少要补上的你知道么？

棍B的研发不是为了要对付某一种或者两种鸡鸡，它需求来自于PLAAF战略和战术上面的需求，国土防空的需求，技术能力的需求跟经济实力的需求。还有不要说双风能超巡的事情了，太不专业了。四代机的超巡跟它们的偶尔超巡，或者加力超巡根本是两回事情，西方媒体拿这些来吸引眼球打广告，你就不要听风就是雨的瞎起哄了。照你这么说我们现在的J-10A也可以超巡，而且还不慢。还有对于真正的超巡，推力只是一部分，而且不是最重要的一部分，气动设计才是知道么。肥电的推力吓得惊人，但是由于它发动机涵道比和气动的原因，它是超巡不起来的，超音速飞行都困难，就是起来效率也低！

再讲到滑跃的J-15，它现在就用31系列的，而且起降性能真的不赖，没比弹射的超虫差多少···载7吨多的弹药在前点起飞一点问题都没有，9吨的都飞过！（7吨多的有效载荷可以有效完成很多不同任务了）一架飞机在航母上起降的效率跟很多指标有关，推力只是一种（特别对于滑跃来讲），比如说上扬角，风俗，航速，加速等等的都有关系。更何况J-15以后主要会在弹射航母上服役，推力的要素更加的缓解了（不是说不重要）····所以你这个论点也站不住脚！

俄罗斯（苏联）的材料不行，我们的就行了？十几年前我们就是一片空白，人家搞了50年的材料学和材料冶金工业你觉得以土鳖国企那种尿性能十几年赶上去么？你知道冶金行业是被国企长期垄断的，他们不像国家重点军工企业，上面有明确的指标压着的，关系到国家安全，所以在航空、航天和舰船领域会有很好的发展（但是之间出了很多狗血的事情，绊倒一大批老顽固的事情就不说了）。

但是造一架飞机跟发动机是一个国家的整体工业实力的体现，冶金和机械精密制造往往是我们最弱的，我们跟美帝最大的差距也就在这里。我可以这么跟你说，就算现在米帝把F-119的全套图纸拿过来，我们做出来的F-119也根本达不到他们10年前的指标跟性能！我们在材料的耐久度，部件的紧合度上面差距还很大。前线的朋友经常吐槽，飞着飞着就掉东西了，拆开一看这个裂了那个断了··········所以我们有现在这样的成绩实属不易，庆幸的是会越来越好，体制内的大力改革，再加上有大量的民营企业做的零部件被采用（通过各种渠道进口的西方部件也很多！）··我们的雷达，光电，感应为什么会发展的那么好是有原因的。

作为军迷想自己国家好无可厚非，积极乐观的态度也很好。但是现实不是我们一厢情愿的，就像我以前说过，土鳖现在的军工没有像有些人想象的那么不堪，也不像有些人意淫的那样好！我们有些好的绝对世界领先，但是落后的还是有很多，更多的是以前拉下来的东西，现在都在恶补当中！

还有最后我想再说一下棍B/C或者目前的J-15都是用31系列的，别再意淫WS了····以后有可能会上WS，但绝对不会是现在这些服役了的！

模子！老卵！big fan of you.....