China Space Military：Recon, Satcom, Navi, ASAT/BMD, Orbital Vehicle, SLV, etc.
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BoQ77
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jhungary
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Well, you obviously don't know how a radar screen looks like, it does not display the silhouette of an object, it only display what have been reflected and received back to the radar receiver. Not all of the aircraft leading edge would bounce off microwave transmitted from the radar. I don't have to admit anything, I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT C-5 and Boeing 747 have a similar radar signature profile.
Then do explain how you can indentify on radar
1.) A Civilian airplane that act like a Military Jet (Ala Iran Air Flight 655)
2.) A Military airplane that act like a Civil Jet?
You are basing on an assumption that all jet behave differently. But in a way, it does and it doesn't. And would you go blast any jet you have not visually identified just because it act militaristic on your radar screen? What you think and assume is abnormal.
.
Missile? Bird? UFO? You missed the point, the point is, you don't know and you cannot say for sure. You cannot simply say "Since nothing move as fast as F-22, then this must be F-22" That is, no other word, foolish assumption.
Would you think F-22 flew at the same speed everytime? And give you the same profile everytime? Just because it does not match anything that remotely happen in the area, that does not mean it is a F-22, it only means you don't know what it is...
gambit
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There is no defeating 'Chinese physics'.
jhungary
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well, there are outside chance that they did have radar that see all and know all. We cannot discount this probability. Although I should say it will be as little as I hit the lotto tomorrow....
gambit
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Is it possible to identify/discriminate the 747 from the C-5 ? Or relevant to this Chinese claim: Is it possible to discriminate the F-22's radar signature from the thousands of aircrafts in the world ?
In theory -- yes.
But here is the ideal situation for that to happen...
1- The radar operator must have complete control of the F-22.
2- The F-22 must be EM isolated, as in inside an anechoic chamber.
3- The radar operating freq must be in millimetric (mm).
Regarding item 3, why millimetric ? Actually, it SHOULD be millimetric, not must.
The above is a close up of the cockpit region of the F-117. Assume that I have complete control and EM isolation of the F-117. Using a millimetric radar, I will be able to take fine details of the F-117 all the way down to the rivets. The distance between the radar and the jet's surface will be in single digit meters, not hundreds of km as in the field. I will be able to rotate the jet any which way possible, all the while recording the EM signatures from all the degrees of movements.
From the theoretically ideal situation, now imagine the degradation of the identification process using centimetric wavelengths against a target that is moving of its own volition at hundreds of km away.
But wait...!!! There is more...Chinese AWACS uses high centimetric or even meters lengths freqs and they are able to ID the F-22 with ease.
Yah...The Chinese members here effectively said that China had complete access to every aircraft in US military inventory in order to be able to identify any US aircraft from a single radar scan even with longer freqs.
When I was active duty, I was told that I have a knack for explaining complex technical issues using easily relatable analogies to get the trainees started on his/her path of understanding the career field.
So here goes...
The famous Chinese baseketball player (ret) Yao Ming is 2.3 meters in height. His height is extraordinary for any ethnicity, let alone for the Chinese people.
The average Anglo-European males ranges from 1.5 to 1.8 meter.
If we put Yao Ming and an average European/American man under radar bombardment, this Western radar will show one figure ( not male ) as taller and shorter than the other. Not tall or short. But taller and shorter.
But according to our Chinese members here, under Chinese radar, not only can the Chinese radar show that the figures are males, but also that the taller male is Chinese, and is Yao Ming himself...!!!
As for the shorter male, who cares who he is ?
That is how advanced are Chinese radars.
Desertfalcon
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Quite right. A C5 and B747 will have virtually identical radar returns. An IDO can distinguish between them given flight profile info, flight patterns, etc., but that has nothing to do with identifying them be their radar return.
jhungary
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meh, most of these people don't know what is going on behind the scene. I just come back from a economic topic with some Chinese member, supposedly a Think Tank, which do nothing but troll, I wonder is this is the quality this forum has become.
I mean, I am up for a good fight on these technical thread, but still, none of them are going to give it to me. Feeling kind of bored.
Is it possible to identify/discriminate the 747 from the C-5 ? Or relevant to this Chinese claim: Is it possible to discriminate the F-22's radar signature from the thousands of aircrafts in the world ?
In theory -- yes.
But here is the ideal situation for that to happen...
1- The radar operator must have complete control of the F-22.
2- The F-22 must be EM isolated, as in inside an anechoic chamber.
3- The radar operating freq must be in millimetric (mm).
Regarding item 3, why millimetric ? Actually, it SHOULD be millimetric, not must.
The above is a close up of the cockpit region of the F-117. Assume that I have complete control and EM isolation of the F-117. Using a millimetric radar, I will be able to take fine details of the F-117 all the way down to the rivets. The distance between the radar and the jet's surface will be in single digit meters, not hundreds of km as in the field. I will be able to rotate the jet any which way possible, all the while recording the EM signatures from all the degrees of movements.
From the theoretically ideal situation, now imagine the degradation of the identification process using centimetric wavelengths against a target that is moving of its own volition at hundreds of km away.
But wait...!!! There is more...Chinese AWACS uses high centimetric or even meters lengths freqs and they are able to ID the F-22 with ease.
Yah...The Chinese members here effectively said that China had complete access to every aircraft in US military inventory in order to be able to identify any US aircraft from a single radar scan even with longer freqs.
When I was active duty, I was told that I have a knack for explaining complex technical issues using easily relatable analogies to get the trainees started on his/her path of understanding the career field.
So here goes...
The famous Chinese baseketball player (ret) Yao Ming is 2.3 meters in height. His height is extraordinary for any ethnicity, let alone for the Chinese people.
The average Anglo-European males ranges from 1.5 to 1.8 meter.
If we put Yao Ming and an average European/American man under radar bombardment, this Western radar will show one figure ( not male ) as taller and shorter than the other. Not tall or short. But taller and shorter.
But according to our Chinese members here, under Chinese radar, not only can the Chinese radar show that the figures are males, but also that the taller male is Chinese, and is Yao Ming himself...!!!
As for the shorter male, who cares who he is ?
That is how advanced are Chinese radars.
LOL, Jesus, I just laughed out really hard after reading your post....
BoQ77
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F-22 in Estonia
An F-22 Raptor takes off from Ämari Air Base, Estonia, Sept. 4, 2015, following a brief forward deployment. The F-22s have previously deployed to both the Pacific and Southwest Asia for Airmen to train in a realistic environment while testing partner nations’ ability to host advanced aircraft like the F-22. The F-22s are deployed from the 95th Fighter Squadron at Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida. The U.S. Air Force routinely deploys aircraft and Airmen to Europe for training and exercises. (U.S. Air Force photo/ Tech. Sgt. Ryan Crane)
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New Possible Chinese Radar Installation on South China Sea Artificial Island Could Put U.S., Allied Stealth Aircraft at Risk - USNI News
New Possible Chinese Radar Installation on South China Sea Artificial Island Could Put U.S., Allied Stealth Aircraft at Risk
By: Sam LaGrone
February 22, 2016 3:19 PM • Updated: February 22, 2016 6:56 PM
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS Asian Maritime Transparency Initiative, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
A possible new Chinese radar installation in the South China Sea could put American and allied stealth aircraft at risk as part of a wider detection network similar to U.S. efforts to find Russian bombers in the Cold War.
Late January satellite imagery from the Center for Strategic and International Studies and DigitalGlobe show the installation of what’s likely a high frequency radar installation the Chinese disputed holding of Cuarteron Reef near the Philippines.
The imagery from DigitalGlobe shows a field on the island with 65 foot-tall poles in a field on reclaimed land on the reef – China’s southern most holding in the region – that are similar to other maritime HF radars, Greg Poling, head of the center’s Asian Maritime Transparency Initiative told USNI News on Monday.
“Why would you have 20-meter poles spread across this features if it’s not high frequency radar? ” Poling said.
“Maybe a giant tarp?”
It’s unclear from the imagery if the site on Cuarteron is operational and inquires left with the Department of Defense by USNI News on Monday were not immediately answered. The Washington Post first reported the installation early Monday afternoon
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
Bryan Clark, a maritime analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA), said that while a high frequency radar on the island could have some law enforcement value – like similar radars the U.S. uses to detect drug runners in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean — it’s likely an HF radar on Cuarteron has a secondary military use to detect stealth aircraft.
Similar U.S. and Russian radars can detect surface targets at ranges well over the horizon – 80 to 200 miles. However Chinese and Russian versions could also notice the presence of low observable aircraft, Clark said.
“If I’m China, this is what I want to install so I can monitor maritime and aviation contacts,” he said.
“It’s got a nice dual use. It can find other aircraft that would be hard to find with traditional early warning radar frequencies.”
China has already installed similar radars on its coastline that are used to detect the presence of stealth aircraft.
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
A possible HF array on Cuarteron could feed what its detects back to mainland China through data links to provide information to radars capable of better targeting stealth aircraft less real estate to scan and then route that data to anti-air warfare missile systems.
The setup “gives you some indications and warning that there are stealth aircraft in the area,” Clark said.
In particular, U.S. stealth aircraft – like the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber and Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter – are optimized against the high end of the radar spectrum.
Higher frequency radars – on their own — can tell when a low observable or stealth aircraft is in its range but do not have the fidelity to lock weapons. However — as reported by USNI News in 2014 — Russia and China both are perfecting lower band radar that could successfully target low observable aircraft working in conjunction with an HF early warning system. The radars could also provide information to Chinese fighters a general idea where to intercept an adversary.
In addition to the U.S., Australia and Japan are in the process of acquiring F-35s.
An F-35C Lightning II carrier variant joint strike fighter conducts a touch and go landing aboard the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN-68). US Navy Photo
The U.S. used a similar idea when it create the Distant Early Warning line to detect Russian bombers starting in the late 1950s.
“It’s the same idea as the DEW Line,” Clark said of an HF array on Cuarteron.
“You could look at this as extending the range of their early warning radars.”
Chris Carlson, a retired U.S. Navy captain and analyst told USNI News that the installation on Cuarteron was much smaller than other similar mainland arrays and its unclear how well the secondary function of the radars would work at the size seen in the images released on Monday.
Additionally, given the location near the Philippines, the alleged HF installation on Cuarteron could also monitor U.S. aircraft movements in the country at long range — all in a package with which China can claim for civilian law enforcement uses, Clark said.
“They can say this is for fishery enforcement and maritime domain awareness and that’s what China will probably claim,” he said.
Beijing has repeatedly said the new installations on the reef, also home to a lighthouse completed in October, are to provide “better public services and goods for the international community,” according to a Monday press briefing with Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Hua Chunying.
Last week satellite imagery of Woody Island in the Paracel chain near Vietnam revealed more than 30 mobile anti-air warfare missiles had been placed on the island – raising questions on China’s peaceful intent in the region.
Beijing implicitly defended the move of the HQ-9 system to Woody Island – confirmed last week by Foreign Minister Wang Yi.
“The Chinese side is entitled to safeguard its territorial sovereignty and maritime rights and interests,” Hua said later in her Monday briefing.
“China’s deployment of limited defense facilities on its own territory is its exercise of self-defense right to which a sovereign state is entitled under international law. It has nothing to do with militarization. It is something that comes naturally, and is completely justified and lawful. The U.S. should view that correctly instead of making an issue of that with deliberate sensationalization [sic].”
New Possible Chinese Radar Installation on South China Sea Artificial Island Could Put U.S., Allied Stealth Aircraft at Risk
By: Sam LaGrone
February 22, 2016 3:19 PM • Updated: February 22, 2016 6:56 PM
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS Asian Maritime Transparency Initiative, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
A possible new Chinese radar installation in the South China Sea could put American and allied stealth aircraft at risk as part of a wider detection network similar to U.S. efforts to find Russian bombers in the Cold War.
Late January satellite imagery from the Center for Strategic and International Studies and DigitalGlobe show the installation of what’s likely a high frequency radar installation the Chinese disputed holding of Cuarteron Reef near the Philippines.
The imagery from DigitalGlobe shows a field on the island with 65 foot-tall poles in a field on reclaimed land on the reef – China’s southern most holding in the region – that are similar to other maritime HF radars, Greg Poling, head of the center’s Asian Maritime Transparency Initiative told USNI News on Monday.
“Why would you have 20-meter poles spread across this features if it’s not high frequency radar? ” Poling said.
“Maybe a giant tarp?”
It’s unclear from the imagery if the site on Cuarteron is operational and inquires left with the Department of Defense by USNI News on Monday were not immediately answered. The Washington Post first reported the installation early Monday afternoon
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
Bryan Clark, a maritime analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA), said that while a high frequency radar on the island could have some law enforcement value – like similar radars the U.S. uses to detect drug runners in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean — it’s likely an HF radar on Cuarteron has a secondary military use to detect stealth aircraft.
Similar U.S. and Russian radars can detect surface targets at ranges well over the horizon – 80 to 200 miles. However Chinese and Russian versions could also notice the presence of low observable aircraft, Clark said.
“If I’m China, this is what I want to install so I can monitor maritime and aviation contacts,” he said.
“It’s got a nice dual use. It can find other aircraft that would be hard to find with traditional early warning radar frequencies.”
China has already installed similar radars on its coastline that are used to detect the presence of stealth aircraft.
A Jan. 24, 2016 image of Cuarteron Reef in the South China Sea with what is likely a high frequency radar array. CSIS, DigitalGlobe Image used with permission.
A possible HF array on Cuarteron could feed what its detects back to mainland China through data links to provide information to radars capable of better targeting stealth aircraft less real estate to scan and then route that data to anti-air warfare missile systems.
The setup “gives you some indications and warning that there are stealth aircraft in the area,” Clark said.
In particular, U.S. stealth aircraft – like the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit bomber and Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter – are optimized against the high end of the radar spectrum.
Higher frequency radars – on their own — can tell when a low observable or stealth aircraft is in its range but do not have the fidelity to lock weapons. However — as reported by USNI News in 2014 — Russia and China both are perfecting lower band radar that could successfully target low observable aircraft working in conjunction with an HF early warning system. The radars could also provide information to Chinese fighters a general idea where to intercept an adversary.
In addition to the U.S., Australia and Japan are in the process of acquiring F-35s.
An F-35C Lightning II carrier variant joint strike fighter conducts a touch and go landing aboard the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN-68). US Navy Photo
The U.S. used a similar idea when it create the Distant Early Warning line to detect Russian bombers starting in the late 1950s.
“It’s the same idea as the DEW Line,” Clark said of an HF array on Cuarteron.
“You could look at this as extending the range of their early warning radars.”
Chris Carlson, a retired U.S. Navy captain and analyst told USNI News that the installation on Cuarteron was much smaller than other similar mainland arrays and its unclear how well the secondary function of the radars would work at the size seen in the images released on Monday.
Additionally, given the location near the Philippines, the alleged HF installation on Cuarteron could also monitor U.S. aircraft movements in the country at long range — all in a package with which China can claim for civilian law enforcement uses, Clark said.
“They can say this is for fishery enforcement and maritime domain awareness and that’s what China will probably claim,” he said.
Beijing has repeatedly said the new installations on the reef, also home to a lighthouse completed in October, are to provide “better public services and goods for the international community,” according to a Monday press briefing with Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Hua Chunying.
Last week satellite imagery of Woody Island in the Paracel chain near Vietnam revealed more than 30 mobile anti-air warfare missiles had been placed on the island – raising questions on China’s peaceful intent in the region.
Beijing implicitly defended the move of the HQ-9 system to Woody Island – confirmed last week by Foreign Minister Wang Yi.
“The Chinese side is entitled to safeguard its territorial sovereignty and maritime rights and interests,” Hua said later in her Monday briefing.
“China’s deployment of limited defense facilities on its own territory is its exercise of self-defense right to which a sovereign state is entitled under international law. It has nothing to do with militarization. It is something that comes naturally, and is completely justified and lawful. The U.S. should view that correctly instead of making an issue of that with deliberate sensationalization [sic].”
sicsheep
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F-22 cruising speed, altitude, unique/weak radar signature, flight path, combined with the human intel seeing the jets took off from Japan, combine all these factors, you can have a very good chance of identifying the aircraft.
But by radar alone, it is not easy, if radars are 100%, US Navy would have not shot down IR 655. and MH 17 would have not been shot down in Ukraine.
This is why ADIZ is important, if all commercial airline report their flight path/schedule to you in advance, you have a much easier time to identifying what's left.
But by radar alone, it is not easy, if radars are 100%, US Navy would have not shot down IR 655. and MH 17 would have not been shot down in Ukraine.
This is why ADIZ is important, if all commercial airline report their flight path/schedule to you in advance, you have a much easier time to identifying what's left.
randomradio
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