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China’s Noisy Subs Get Busier — And Easier to Track

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The military’s latest secret assessment of China’s rapidly modernizing submarines has good news and bad news for the U.S. Navy. On one hand, the roughly 60 submarines in the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) fleet are spending more and more time on combat-ready patrols — signaling China’s increasing naval competence and growing seriousness about influencing the western Pacific Ocean.

On the other hand, the flurry of undersea activity gives American forces more opportunities to tail and examine Chinese subs. And U.S. analysts discovered a silver lining in the gathering strategic storm clouds. Chinese submarines are a hell of a lot noisier than anyone expected. The sound you hear is the Pacific balance of power tipping in Washington’s favor.


As recently as 2007, China’s diesel-powered subs and a handful of nuclear-propelled models managed just a few patrols per year, combined. Two years before that, none of Beijing’s undersea boats went on patrol. For years, the majority of PLAN submarines remained tied up at naval bases, sidelined by mechanical problems and a shortage of adequately trained crews.

As long as the PLAN’s submarines were idle, the U.S. Navy’s spy planes, surveillance ships and snooping subs had few opportunities to assess China’s undersea capabilities — and, most importantly, how much noise the Chinese generate while submerged and moving. Navies can use passive sonars to track submarines by the sounds they make. The louder a vessel, the easier it is to detect. And destroy.

With little information to go on, American intelligence officials had to guess. In cases like that, “you guess conservatively,” a respected U.S.-based naval analyst tells Danger Room on the condition of anonymity. The conservative estimates placed the latest PLAN subs roughly a decade behind the state-of-art for Russian submarines — and potentially 20 years behind U.S. undersea technology.

Now Chinese subs are patrolling more frequently. “Within the last year or two the Chinese have begun to deploy diesel boats more frequently into places like the Philippines Sea,” the analyst reveals. More and better data is flowing in from U.S. forces. With that data, the Navy conducted a fresh assessment of PLAN submarines. The unnamed analyst attended a classified briefing based on the assessment.

The assessment’s biggest surprise: Leaving aside the PLAN’s dozen imported Russian subs, new Chinese submarines can be detected at what’s known as the “first convergence zone,” a ring approximately 25 miles from an undersea vessel where outward-traveling sound waves pack close together.

During the Cold War, the U.S. Navy would arrange its own submarines in lines where each boat was 25 miles from the next, forming a sort of net to catch Soviet subs. With the introduction of the latest generation of quiet Russian diesel subs in the 1990s, the Americans thought that convergence-zone detection was no longer possible. But the Navy’s just discovered that China’s homemade subs are even louder than 20-year-old Russian boats. “Apparently they [U.S. subs] are making first convergence zone detections and holding them,” the analyst reports.

Assuming the Chinese stay with their current sub designs, American submarines should be capable of swiftly defeating Chinese boats in any potential future shooting war — helping clear the way for U.S. aircraft carriers to strike Chinese land targets. Combined with a slowdown in Chinese sub production, and the recent doubling of America’s submarine build-rate, the noise revelation could lead to a radical recalculation of the Pacific balance of power.

The U.S. Navy had a comfortable technological lead over the PLAN even before the increased Chinese sub activity fueled the recent intelligence coup. Now that lead has gotten even wider. And noisier


China's Noisy Subs Get Busier -- And Easier to Track | Danger Room | Wired.com
 
So the fact that a PLAN sub managed to shadow a CBG was an oversight by the Yanks.
 
^^

You get your defence analysis from Wired??

So how did a Chinese sub surface in torpedo range of a US Navy CBG in 2007??

For passive sonar, you just generate noise in peace time so you don't give your acoustic signature away. Duh.

I believe it was "allowed".. funding lobbyists need the drama.. otherwise there was little to justify stuff like the P-8 or the MH-60R.
 
its very difficult to assessa enemey sub in peace ful conditions.
anyway the rate china is moving their techn of 2007 and 2012 will be equal to US techn of 1990 and 2005. they are moving too fast, and closing very quickly. my guess around 2015-2020 US technology will be rivaled by chinese
 
I believe it was "allowed".. funding lobbyists need the drama.. otherwise there was little to justify stuff like the P-8 or the MH-60R.

Only in their ego.

They never tracked our subs. During the 60th PLAN anniversary, they never tracked down our Type 092, let alone the newer SSN and SSBN.
 
its very difficult to assessa enemey sub in peace ful conditions.
anyway the rate china is moving their techn of 2007 and 2012 will be equal to US techn of 1990 and 2005. they are moving too fast, and closing very quickly. my guess around 2015-2020 US technology will be rivaled by chinese

Of course, the sub silencer is only some low level technology compared to the turbofan engine.

China can build the equivalent turbofan engine of F110 and F119 without any problem, so how we cannot build a high quality silencer with nearly 50 years of experience with the nuclear sub?

Does it make sense to you?
 
The Good News About China's New Ballistic Missile Subs Is That They're Ridiculously Loud And Easy To Track

The Good News About China's New Ballistic Missile Subs Is That They're Ridiculously Loud And Easy To Track

The U.S. has known Chinese submarines were less than stealth for years, and a 2009 report by the Navy's Office of Naval Intelligence says the PLAN has two Jin-class ballistic subs in service, and both are louder than Russian Delta III-class submarines produced three decades ago.
But with Chinese subs sitting idle in harbors that was just a guess, until now.

An unnamed intelligence analyst told Danger Room, “Within the last year or two the Chinese have begun to deploy diesel boats more frequently into places like the Philippines Sea.”

Following the Chinese in U.S. subs, the U.S. Navy was surprised to find the Jin boats could be detected at the "first convergence zone," a ring of sonic noise, produced by vessels in motion, 25 miles away from the submarine.

Definitely good news for Naval commanders if push ever comes to shove, and China looks to flew its naval muscle.

A good news for the free world indeed!
 
so what ?? i think never ever US and US slaves appreciate china :china:
 
so what ??
PLA navy subs advertise their presence in the sea from 25 miles away, and be dealt with at will safely and efficiently.

It kinda explains why the PLA was so obsessed with anti-ship ballistic missile concept, since their anti-ship cruise missiles and torpedo could not approach US fleet close enough for an attack.

By making themselves easily available to be sunk, PLA subs contribute to peace in the South China Sea and the Taiwan Straits.
 
PLA navy subs advertise their presence in the sea from 25 miles away, and be dealt with at will safely and efficiently.

It kinda explains why the PLA was so obsessed with anti-ship ballistic missile concept, since their anti-ship cruise missiles and torpedo could not approach US fleet close enough for an attack.

By making themselves easily available to be sunk, PLA subs contribute to peace in the South China Sea and the Taiwan Straits.

they was at 0 in 1947 and when i watch them in 2011 its look to me great achievement dear. wait they will fix it sooner or letter .its not something un-fixable .USA should worry abut there economy more then china now .
 
or,really,h\a US?

Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author » Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007


When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time


---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 AM ----------

since their anti-ship cruise missiles and torpedo could not approach US fleet close enough for an attack.

By making themselves easily available to be sunk, PLA subs contribute to peace in the South China Sea and the Taiwan Straits.

HAHA,next time we might not be that polite to show where we are.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
 

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