Battle of Asal Uttar - 56 years ago

[Raja Porus]

The only thing patton excelled in was mobility.

Laser range finders, optics allowed Patton to Excel at long range combat.

Total losses were of 90 tanks... Losses occurred due to enemy fire and boggy areas where many tanks got stuck and were captured in running order.

Sir Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed writes that the figure of 97 pattons is exaggerated and the total losses suffered by 1st amrd div upto its withdrawal were about 62 tanks, as follows
- 4th Cavalry: total= 44. ; Lost= 28
- 6 Lancers : total= 42; lost= 19
- 24th Cavalry: total=37; list=15
The remaining 50% which were damaged or mechanically defective were repaired and in action by 19th September due to the efficient repair programme.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Brother indian Centurions Mk7s did not have the 105mm L7 Rifled Gun they were using the 20Pdr 84mm gun. The 20Pdr with HEAT had enough penetration to go through Pattons armor primarily due to poor protection against HEAT.The only thing patton excelled in was mobility.Its just the indians which like to make patton look like it was a invincible tank and supapawa destroyed it successfully.

The Indians talk of the Patton as the King Tiger facing lowly Shermans.

The truth was Centurion was the best tank of the period. The design was league years ahead and would not look out of place against modern tanks like M1-Abrams or Leopard.

The Centurion.

Modern German Leopard.

Is it my understanding that a attacking force should have at least 3:1 advantage?

Laser range finders, optics allowed Patton to Excel at long range combat.

I read that this was source of problem. Most Pak soldiers were barely literate and struggled to handle the capable but complex rangefinders.

Sir Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed writes that the figure of 97 pattons is exaggerated and the total losses suffered by 1st amrd div upto its withdrawal were about 62 tanks, as follows

This is not surprising. India is largely a country that excells at bluster, brag and exageration. The numbers are in keeping with Indian disinfo nature. Patton-Nagar wtf? The Russians destroyed 1,000s of German tanks and Germans destroyed 1,000s of Russian tanks. Yet you don't have places named 'PanzerOblast or T-32Platz. Only these corny Gangus could come up with this PattonNagar.

 

[Raja Porus]

The truth was Centurion was the best tank of the period. The design was league years ahead and would not look out of place against modern tanks like M1-Abrams or Leopard

But the fact is that by 65 India had only three(OR six, I can't remember correctly) regts equipped with centurions while most of our armoured regts were made up of M47/48s. They outnumbered Shermans by far in our armoured Corps.
In the end it was poor understanding of armoured warfare at higher levels, lack of staff course qualified officers at brigade level and overall supervision by the GHQ, mix and match at the last moments and not paying attention to advices by senior and more experienced officers.

I read that this was source of problem. Most Pak soldiers were barely literate and struggled to handle the capable but complex rangefinders

Plus they were inapplicable in close range and of no use at all if the enemy ambushed you or was concealed by sugarcane fields.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

But the fact is that by 65 India had only three(OR six, I can't remember correctly) regts equipped with centurions while most of our armoured regts were made up of M47/48s

The problem was from 1960 onwards Pakistan was swamped with US aid including US military weapons. Within months Pakistan had large force of tanks thanks to US but the manpower required to operate them and officers to manage mobile armoured warfare were lacking. Had those tanks and their officers been crewed by German WW2 Waffen SS they would have started the engines on the outskirts of Lahore and parked up week later in Kolkatta nd got drunk on Indian Gin having sliced Indian in half over 1,000 miles thrust.

 

[Tomcats]

Sir Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed

Do you know where to get his book, i have read its introduction available online and it seems to be extremely comprehensive.

German WW2 Waffen SS

Personally the Panzer Lehr would be more capable not these delusional lunatics imo

 

[PakFactor]

The problem was from 1960 onwards Pakistan was swamped with US aid including US military weapons. Within months Pakistan had large force of tanks thanks to US but the manpower required to operate them and officers to manage mobile armoured warfare were lacking. Had those tanks and their officers been crewed by German WW2 Waffen SS they would have started the engines on the outskirts of Lahore and parked up week later in Kolkatta nd got drunk on Indian Gin having sliced Indian in half over 1,000 miles thrust.

A lot of the modern war doctrines are based on German Officer scholarship and studies. Germany in a sense pioneer Armored Warfare and tactics the rest basically copied. Problem with both India and Pakistan: (1) Being under British yolk never progressed up to levels to manage Armor. (2) No will or ability to pioneer tactics and tech.

Even now you look at PA failure to adopt what the West has learned in last 20 years, but will come up with a thousand excuses.

 

[Tornado23]

yes u r right, 105mm gun on it.. patton 90mm and was not able to penetrate centurion armor

90mm HEAT FS could pen any tanks the indians had. It was just that the cent mk7 was better at doing it

 

[Raja Porus]

Do you know where to get his book, i have read its introduction available online and it seems to be extremely comprehensive

I got mine from the old book banks elin the street behind the Bread n Butter, Saddar, Rawalpindi. Was very lucky Indeed.
I think general Mahmud has just compiled the works of staff course research groups set up each year for more than a decade(1976-1985).

 

[Hephaestus]

l


looks like 3 to 4 regiments got decimated… 90mm M48 ? recoil refiles must have had a field day..
May Lord bless the souls of fallen Mujahids of Pakistan army

May God bless all the soldiers who fight for their motherland.

@maverick1977 You might be interested in reading this also.

Thread by @FinestYew on Thread Reader App

Thread by @FinestYew: Ambush In Punjab: Decline & Fall of the Pakistani Army. Most Indians know of Asal Uttar as the moment in history when Pak Armour rolled into a well laid Indian trap. Few truly grasp...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Adonis]

1. We did lots of mistakes during war of 65 but we level the score few days after in the battle of Chawinda, you did also lots of mistakes during the 65 war, fails and success is a part during the war

2. Destroy your 500 tanks kills half of your attacking force, and you retreated as result

1. We kept on doing mistakes after that too..and continued getting humiliated in 1971 , Siachen, Kargil.... and now the strategy has changed.....they are using 5th Gen warfare and we are still on the receiving end.

2. Correction to your figures...

Battle of Chawinda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tomcats]

May God bless all the soldiers who fight for their motherland.

@maverick1977 You might be interested in reading this also.

Thread by @FinestYew on Thread Reader App

Thread by @FinestYew: Ambush In Punjab: Decline & Fall of the Pakistani Army. Most Indians know of Asal Uttar as the moment in history when Pak Armour rolled into a well laid Indian trap. Few truly grasp...…

threadreaderapp.com

It's not a good thread, i read it yesterday and it's pretty garbage, a lot of rhetoric and questionable claims. Plus he only uses 2 sources, Indian Mil History and a forum post...

 

[Hephaestus]

It's not a good thread, i read it yesterday and it's pretty garbage, a lot of rhetoric and questionable claims. Plus he only uses 2 sources, Indian Mil History and a forum post...

Let's read your side of the story then? Please include P I Cheema's observations as well.

 

[arjunk]

You boast about khem Karan a small border town and not looking at the fact India was threateningly close to capture Big City like Lahore and sat for 8 days on your territory starting right from the outskirts of Lahore and other cities till the peace was declared in Tashkent....

Lahore is 20kms away from the border, even in peace time India is sitting on the "outskirts of Lahore." Back then there was no border fencing and people crossed at will similar to Afghanistan. The BRB canal, where India advanced till, was considered the "border". If India was in such good shape it would've retained some territory or gained some concessions from Pakistan. However, India's gains were inconsequential to Pakistan.

Even in 1971 when India gained 10,000km^2 of territory in Sindh, it was all useless desert land which it ended up giving back in exchange for the smaller amounts of land Pakistan captured in Punjab.

 

[Tornado23]

Funny & typical loser speak. Remember history is always written by WINNERS.

That would be the case had you not just spewed so much filth and crap (aka your media) over the past 70+ years regarding pakistan and india. Its so bad that when researching about the pak indo wars, historians often wrote that there isnt mucb point to get into this topic as its so murky due to the sheer amount of indian propaganda. Well done poluting it.

 

[Tornado23]

Lahore is 20kms away from the border, even in peace time India is sitting on the "outskirts of Lahore." Back then there was no border fencing and people crossed at will similar to Afghanistan. The BRB canal, where India advanced till, was considered the "border". If India was in such good shape it would've retained some territory or gained some concessions from Pakistan. However, India's gains were inconsequential to Pakistan.

Even in 1971 when India gained 10,000km^2 of territory in Sindh, it was all useless desert land which it ended up giving back in exchange for the smaller amounts of land Pakistan captured in Punjab.

I have never found an article about the 71 war regarding the 10,000 km2 or 15000km2 capturex.