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Autonomy Under Indian Constitution: An Old Pragmatic Approach To Kashmir or a Recipe for Disaster?

@Stephen Cohen I quoted the act under which India and Pakistan as two separate and distinct dominions were enacted by the British at the time in order to legitimize the whole act of signing of the act of accession at of Oct 1947, to which India and Pakistan were still bound as per law as it was only subsequently that India enacted the laws as you have enunciated above.

Don't hurry the thread. We have to identify and nail the mistakes as and when made. That is why, hold the horses, let us analyze why India undertook to act in a manner which was contrary to the laid down provisions. Mind you, India was dominion still being formed and only in 1975 has India evolved as a nation truly.

Will be posting more relevant extracts, add on if something is being missed. Am trying to get us all to go into a chronology of the chaos and the mistakes as also instances of lost opportunities in the whole issue till date. Will tag and indulge in plagiarism (with due credits and tags) on work already posted and analyses. Slow and painful, but we seem to be differing in our perceptions

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

Legally speaking there are Two major narratives

Kashmiri narrative and Indian narrative

Kashmiri narrative says that after 1953 ; Article 370 was eroded ; and diluted

Today Kashmir has no real autonomy -- That may be true from their perspective

But from Indian perspective Kashmir is STILL the Most autonomous state of India

What we did after after 1953 was to extend certain basic features of the Indian state
such as the WRIT of Supreme Court ; All India Sevices like IAS and IPS
Election Commission of India to Hold Elections and above all the power of the Central Government under Article 356 to dismiss a state government

IRONICALLY the expansion of the rights and powers of Indian Parliament and Central Government -- relating to Kashmir was done by NEHRU and Indira Gandhi

They were quite open and explicit about it --That they have eroded Article 370

And today Congress is talking of autonomy for Kashmir

All kinds of tools and techniques were used ; pliable CMs ; dismissing State Governments
Imprisoning Sheikh Abdullah ; rigging elections by the Congress

The ends justified the means
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So after violence erupted in 1989 such steps taken by Nehru and Indira look
perfectly justified and appropriate otherwise we would not have been able
to Control Kashmir

Kashmiris have been OBSESSED about Their being different and Autonomy
and the Article 370 right from 1953 onwards

Even before the violence began they used to talk of Betrayal by the Gandhis
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It is all about the Kashmiri Mindset

The violence would have have happened anyway --it was waiting to happen

It is just that we can tackle it legally and constitutionally now

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Indira Gandhi said to The Abdullahs -- The CLOCK cannot be turned back --way back in 1975

And that is how it is going to be
 
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Sorry.
I didnt receive any notification.

On topic:
I do not support Mr. Chidambaram's idea of letting Kashmir be an autonomous state. He must have said it with a good intent, but he's forgetting the fact that albeit building autonomy could temporarily ease the tension and offer the opportunities for further negotiation, BUT it is not easy to forecast the future of autonomy. In other words, dangers could underly the face of peace.
Do you want Kashmir to be in a perpetual state of war?
Other than alienating Kashmir from rest of India we have so far not achieved anything tangible by giving (special) autonomous status to Kashmir.

Let them (people of Kashmir) frame their own laws as much as possible and as long as it does not conflict with the Constitution.

The first part of his statement marked in red conflicts with his second statement. If every state in the country is allowed to have its free will in making laws then how long do you think India will survive?

We (UPA government) did mishandle

Too late for this confession.

"We have to assure that we will respect identity, history, culture, religion..."

Does he mean to say that other states and its people do not have any?
I know, many here would ask me to consider the situation under which Kashmir joined hands with India. But so far, the special status given to kashmir by Indian government, has been its biggest blunder.
Had Kashmir been like any other state in India then others would have been able to buy property in the state, they would have been able to establish their businesses and bring properity to the state. But the damn article 370 and its perils dont just end there. Kashmiris have a super citizen status in India. For example, in many states like Maharshtra, Kashmiri students get a priority in admission when compared to other states. Why the favour?


abolish the controversial AFSPA or at least amend it and make the state police overall incharge of law and order situation.

Once again, that would be a vacuous thing to do.
Kashmir unlike other states has incessant law and order issues, J&K police is not well equipped nor well trained to handle it.
 
Once again, that would be a vacuous thing to do.
Kashmir unlike other states has incessant law and order issues, J&K police is not well equipped nor well trained to handle it.

That is the crux. What @Joe Shearer and I have been saying, it is a law and order issue, yet we see many members making it a demand for separatism, I have tried to tag people who have engaged @Joe Shearer the other day on his approach, the approach has to be under the original guarantees which the Indian state made when it need not have made, at the time of signing of Instrument of Accession and what the Constitution of India permits.
 
That is the crux. What @Joe Shearer and I have been saying, it is a law and order issue, yet we see many members making it a demand for separatism, I have tried to tag people who have engaged @Joe Shearer the other day on his approach, the approach has to be under the original guarantees which the Indian state made when it need not have made, at the time of signing of Instrument of Accession and what the Constitution of India permits.
Afaik me and the said member hold very divergent views on this issue, after his profane remark I don't engage in any discussion with him.
Anyways, I haven't read the thread/discussion you're talking about. Was it about the appeal to sign a petition?

the approach has to be under the original guarantees which the Indian state made when it need not have made, at the time of signing of Instrument of Accession and what the Constitution of India permits
Right.

I haven't read other posts on this thread to know your opinion. Allow me sometime. :)
 
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@Levina not on this thread, the comments have been across various threads especially by @Joe Shearer , whose sane observations have been construed as anti-national (?) at times.

Its across the threads, and at times our own country members have been vehement in their attitude as nationalists become. Kudos to their nationalism, it is needed for the nation. But we have to be an informed nation, who has to take rational decisions knowing the facts and not merely responding to rhetoric and misrepresentation of facts by others and falling in to the trap of doing so ourselves, thereby deluding ourselves.

So chronologically we are trying to put up things. Will need collating data .. will keep doing it but need time.
 
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Grant a large degree of autonomy to J&K: Chidambaram
PTI | Jul 20, 2016, 09.44 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Proposing a radical solution to the situation in Kashmir, senior Congress leader and former home minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday night advocated restoring the "grand bargain" under which Kashmir had acceded to India by granting a large degree of autonomy, warning that otherwise the country will have to pay a "heavy price".

"I think their approach is wrong. We have ignored the grand bargain under which Kashmir acceded to India. I think we broke faith, we broke promises and as a result we have paid a heavy price," he told Karan Thapar on India Today.

He said the best solution, according to him, was that New Delhi should give an assurance to the people of Kashmir that the "grand bargain" promised during the time of Kashmir's accession "will be honoured fully".

Chidambaram said, "I may be wrong, I may be right but what is necessary is to give the assurance that the grand bargain will be fully honoured. Let them (people of Kashmir) frame their own laws as much as possible and as long as it does not conflict with the Constitution.

"We have to assure that we will respect identity, history, culture, religion..."

Citing India's advice to Sri Lankan on devolution of asymmetric powers to Tamil areas of the north and east, the former minister said implement what we are preaching to Sri Lanka.

Chidambaram said the situation in Kashmir has been mishandled by successive governments in Srinagar and New Delhi.

"We (UPA government) did mishandle. But we corrected ourselves in 2010. Now, both the governments in Delhi and Srinagar mishandled (it) very, very badly," he said.

Asserting that Kashmir "required a unique political solution", Chidambaram blamed the ruling PDP-BJP alliance for the present crisis saying they (alliance) should have never come to power.

"The alliance itself is a grave provocation for the valley. It is a legitimate government. They have the numbers. The legitimacy of the government has not taken away the fact that these two partners forming government has given a sense of fear among people of Kashmir."

Asserting that 'Azadi' means different things to different people, Chidambaram said what is necessary is to give an assurance that grand bargain will be fully honoured.

"Let them frame their own laws as long as it does not conflict with the Constitution. As much as possible we have to assure that we will respect the identity, history, culture, religion.... and allow them to be part of India."

Asked if Prime Minister Narendra Modi can implement such a proposal as he is known as a doer, he said "I don't know what his fundamental beliefs are. If his fundamental belief is that India must be a majoritarian state whatever I said will be a complete waste on him."

He said that the decision of former Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed to allign with the BJP was a "blot" on his political career. "It was a serious mistake," he said.

Chidambaram rued that for a long time the the Corps Commander of the Army was the overall incharge of security of Kashmir and not the chief minister or the director general of Jammu & Kashmir Police.

"... handing over security to defence ... making GOC virtually the overall command ... these shifts should not have happened ... it happened over the period. I found that GoC was overall incharge not CM or DGP ... but CM's writ does not run ... We pulled back considerably but there was no follow up," he said.

Chidambaram said when he was the home minister he wanted to move the Army and paramilitary forces to border areas, abolish the controversial AFSPA or at least amend it and make the state police overall incharge of law and order situation.

As many as 10,000 personnel of the forces were moved out. "However, it was not followed up," he said.

Chidambaram admitted that he could not push forward a proposal for withdrawal of AFSPA from parts of the state because of opposition from the defence establishment.
"I could not convince the defence establishment and political leadership. Opinion within the government was sharply divided. Political leadership could not overrule the defence opinion even though paramilitary forces came on board," he said.

He regretted that no follow up action was taken on the reports of the interlocutors for Kashmir appointed when he was the Home Minister.

"I think the interlocutors reports should have been acted upon. We have not implemented bulk of the recommendationm..," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...my-to-JK-Chidambaram/articleshow/53306302.cms


@Joe Shearer Tagging you for your comments sir. Merge it somewhere if need be.

@kaykay @Omega007 @Arsalan@Stephen Cohen @Levina @SrNair @Nair saab

Well ,
First of all Congress should at least show some spine (dont have to show Indira type 'Iron fist' but at least a pinch)when they deal with national security issues .
Noone going to gives extra care to some attention seekers .Kashmiris are also include in the 1. 3 billion demography of India.Like any other Indians they have also some right in our national resources .But dont have to loose nations self respect by bending and giving extra consideration to them .
Kashmiris are like any other Indians .If they cant accept that fact then they can go and find some other place in this world .Noone prevent them to do that .
But no govt should show a bad precedent like former Govt's did in Kashmir .
We should fully employ our clout to ensure that .

And i would say we should slowly reduce the extra perks that giving o them .

The failure of politicians is due to complexity of this state problem as well as the lack of will power and politically it needs to be addressed but without giving more power under special status

There are people that takes severe advantage in this hanging issue .
A lots of corrupted in valley and central govt are taking the benefits of unaudited funds spent in Kashmir.

Chidambaram was and will in future be, if he returns to power, a high-handed ruler: the memoirs of Subba Rao bear testimony to that.

But what he has said is independent of that, and is tainted if we club his statement with Gujral and other half-witted and addle-brained idiots.

In every case of a civil discontent culminating in armed uprising, commanders of the force of state who have been responsible for quelling the uprising have, if successful, been dependent on longer term success on the efforts of politicians in particular and of the civil administration in general to undo the conditions that led to the uprising in the first place. Look what we did with Sheikh Abdullah; spoilt child of the freedom struggle though he was, whose fault was it that he did not get a sharp warning when first he started going to the rulers of Pakistan direct for a settlement, without even consulting the Indians?
Why was his administration overthrown in such an outrageous manner?
Why was he replaced by a ridiculous, unrepresentative coxcomb?
Why did Delhi try to rule the Valley indirectly for decades after this?
Why were efforts not made to develop Kashmir to the same extent as other parts of India?
Who was responsible for the seventy-year old failure to make her earn a fortune through development of her hydel generation potential?
Why is the education level so poor?
Why does the vast majority of funds granted disappear without a ten percent survival on the surface?
Why did the centre delay in bringing Seshan's electoral reforms to the state?
Why was Farooq Abdullah brought back to power through crooking the elections, without allowing the dissidents to contest fairly?

I could go on, but the facts are clear.

The problem in Kashmir is not Pakistan. It is not the Hurriyat. It is not the obstinate refusal to be reasonable of the man in the street. It is not the Kashmir Police, or the CRPF, or the BSF, forget about the Indian Army. The problem in Kashmir is the dead hand of the bureaucracy in Delhi, and it is the infantile incompetence of minister after minister at the centre. And it is the total corruption and unreliability of the local politicians.



Kashmiris don't want plebiscite, they want good governance and they want freedom to be ruled by the rule of law.



Stick to the Resolution and its terms and conditions. Thinking up new innovations is not going to work.



Yes, it has. At the meetings of the Plebiscite Commission: you are probably not even aware that the body existed and that it met and that Pakistan then proceeded to put a spoke in its wheels.

And the Resolution clearly mentions that Pakistan should withdraw totally, and India should withdraw partially, retaining enough troops to maintain law and order.

What you are suggesting is a new formula, imposed on the situation that the UN had then considered, and is precisely the way Pakistan has blocked a solution. By putting up her own set of terms and conditions after accepting an international body's settlement.



Today that is what it has become.

This is not what it was.

The symptoms have become the disease.



(1) Yes. India has voluntarily surrendered every advantage, and still faces criticism for blocking a settlement.
(2) The most cynical act by the most cynical family of Pakistan. ZAB signed away any invocation of external or multilateral institutions, BB fanned the flames that her father had doused, and Baby B is breathing fumes already, and practising flaming.
(3) Pakistan is not 'required' to do these things, but they are the obvious things that ought to be done.
(4) Technically impeccable, but this will never be accepted.



It is IMPOSSIBLE to do away with Article 370.

Please read Noorani and work it out for yourself.

That is what I am talking about .And you just nailed it Joe .

For decades ,the so called special status of Kashmir was enabling our corrupt bureaucrats ,politicians and local Kashmir politicians in ploughing the unaudited funds allowed to J&K at the expense of other taxpayers in India .
For other Indians a good portion of money in centre's treasure is going to nowhere and for Kashmiris it is not only a
trouble life but a question mark to their life ,jobs and also future .

For Hurriyat the end of problem means an empty illegal money bag because bribes from inside and outside will end up forever .They also wont get same luxurious treatment .
 
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Today that is what it has become.

This is not what it was.

The symptoms have become the disease.

If Nehru and Indira eroded Article 370 by all possible means ; it shows that
Indian Government was from the beginning knowing that a full fledged insurgency
would happen in future

There fore they did what was prudent at that time

Strengthening the Hold of the Indian Government through Constitutional means

Secondly Kashmir always had an external dimension right UPTO the UNO
in addition to the internal dimension

So it was necessary for India to get its Legal and constitutional FRAME WORK in order
in case it became an embarrassment for external affairs ministry
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@hellfire @Nilgiri @Rain Man @Joe Shearer

The more you think of it ; the more you realise the Extremely
Important ; delicate ; Complex and Farsighted JOB done by Nehru and Indira in
eroding Article 370 and GETTING ready for a future insurgency

They knew that We would have to ANSWER this question that the world would ASK one day

That " What is Kashmir 's Constitutional status "

In comparision ; Chidambaram looks like a VILLAGE IDIOT when he talks of Autonomy
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The Insurgency in North East started in the FIFTIES

It was always a matter of WHEN and NOT IF ; that it would happen in Kashmir too

First Pakistan tried the Direct route through Wars and then what happened in 1989 was
simply IN EVITABLE

You can safely Say that Indian Government NEVER TRUSTED the Kashmiris

Hence we ERODED Article 370 and Rightly so
 
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the comments have been across various threads especially by @Joe Shearer , whose sane observations have been construed as anti-national (?) at times.
It takes some galls to call a terrorist as freedom fighter or Kashmir as India occupied kashmir.
Anyways, ignoring helps.
But we have to be an informed nation, who has to take rational decisions knowing the facts and not merely responding to rhetoric and misrepresentation of facts by others and falling in to the trap of doing so ourselves, thereby deluding ourselves.
So are you in favour of Kashmir's autonomy?
 
It takes some galls to call a terrorist as freedom fighter or Kashmir as India occupied kashmir.
Anyways, ignoring helps.

So are you in favour of Kashmir's autonomy?

Am collating all information in a chronological order so that all members can understand what transpired till date. It is not only frustrating but downright dismaying that you claim a territory as part of your country, yet paint the people there in one broad stroke of being anti-national.

It is also frustrating to see Indian media and even senior government/army officer's make a mess when firing takes place across RS Pura and in Jammu, Sambha and Kathua, which is a recognised international Boundary as per the Karachi Agreement of 1948 and officially we call it LC ceasefire violation thereby making a legally recognised part of India disputed. The Pakistanis have smartly realised their faux pas and started terming it the 'working boundary'.

An example of perpetuation of ignorance and harming of national interests.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/paki...-international-border-in-samba-sector-1235833

That this habit of shooting ourselves in our foot is a norm for us Indians, is something that frustrates me, I see the ignorance here itself. My aim is only to seek all members' help so that we all understand the facts as they stand. Hence all data that I can find I shall be posting. We (Indians) loose our narrative with our ignorance. I don't see anyone challenge the figure of 700000 troops in J&K which comes up ever so often except for @Joe Shearer who debunks the figure every odd day. That is because Indians themselves are unaware and don't want to learn.

Things which are clear for me:

1. Indian Accession Act of 1947 was the legal binding document at the time which formed the base for existence of both India and Pakistan.

2. The accession of Maharaja of Kashmir to Dominion of India was valid and legal under Para 3(a) of the Indian Accession Act of 1947.

I shall add on to above list once I post the relevant documents. The facts have to be ver clear for all concerned. This war (over Kashmir) is over - Pakistan has lost it diplomatically at the international forum, militarily it is never going to be in a position to force the issue. It remains on India to loose it perceptually, something which we are en-route on seeing the political apathy and ham handed approach there.

Statement of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah on Indian States
1946

(Extract)

The Indian States problems are closely linked up with those of British India. They are common both to British India and Indian States. The British are well aware of the position, indicated by the two lines of defence on which British Imperialism could rely. The first line of defence lies in the question of the Congress League understanding, with the implication of Hindu-Muslim unity. The second line of defence rests on the position of the Princes who, in the eye of British Imperialism, should be safeguarded.

With such a prospect before the people of India, it is necessary both for the people of British India and those of the Indian States to coordinate and merge the movements into a single channel. In order to do this, the people's organizations in the States should be strengthened.

The problem of the people in the States is primarily one of removing autocracy and establishing full responsible government. That objective cannot be achieved unless a united front is offered by the people. After the State's people's Conference at Udaipur I feel that the people in the States are now awakened more than ever before. There is now a more widespread political consciousness among them. It is true that sentiments have lately played a great part in the politics of the Country, particularly in British India. Take the instance of the cry of Pakistan. It was born of distress. Now it is stripped of all reasons. The question before the Muslims will be whether the realization of Pakistan is a blessing to them. I personally think that Pakistan will not help the Muslim masses but hinder them in their struggle for political and economic emancipation. In our State this question however, does not arise, because an overwhelming
majority of the people are Muslims and there is no need to fear Hindu domination.


The statements and acts of Sheikh Abdullah in the years preceding Independence are of extreme importance as he was the recognised leader of the masses of the J&K. His shift in position on the question of Kashmir at varying times is an interesting study by itself.

Quit Kashmir speech of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah
May, 26, 1946


The tyranny of the Dogras has lacerated our souls. The Kashmiris are the most handsome people, yet the most wretched looking. It is time for action. To end your poverty, you must fight slavery and enter the field of Jehad as soldiers. The fight slogan of our struggle is not only for our State but for the whole of India. India is fighting against Imperialism. The slogan was given on the banks of River Ravi ... Then came the slogan of 'Quit India.' The British gained hold of India by the force of arms and by treachery. The rulers of the Indian States who possess one-fourth of India, have always played traitors to the cause of Indian freedom.

The demand that the Princely Order should quit is a logical extension of the policy of 'Quit India.' When the Indian freedom movement demands the complete withdrawal of British power, logically enough the stooges of British Imperialism also should go and restore sovereignty to its real owners - the people. When we raise the slogan of 'Quit Kashmir,' we naturally visualise that the Princes and Swabs should quit all the States. I am sure this demand applies similarly to a State like Hyderabad where the people will, I am sure, raise their voice, 'Quit Hyderabad.'

Those Hindus who think along with Mr. R.C. Kak that the Dogra rule should remain, should never forget that we are treated in Kashmir as a bought-up race without distinction of religion. Handcuffs jingle. They do not make us afraid. God will dive us faith in victory. The voice of truth will prevail. Prophets have spoken for the truth, which has always triumphed finally.


Sovereignty is not the birthright of a ruler. Every man, woman and child will shout 'Quit Kashmir'. The Kashmiri nation has expressed its will. I ask for a plebiscite on this question.

That was the first time a demand for plebiscite was made. It is pertinent to note that Sheikh Abdullah at this time was himself not in favour of Pakistan and indeed felt that the formation of Pakistan would not be any major step in looking after the interests of Muslims especially.

His demand for plebiscite was from the rule of the Dogras, something which India may have re-affirmed at the tome of signing of the Instrument of Accession.


Press Statement: Chowdhry Hamidullah Khan

President Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference

10th May, 1947


The British Paramountcy of the States has come to an end. It has been transferred to the people. No solution has so far been found out for conceding the demands of various communities living in India. If Kashmir has to keep itself aloof from carnage and bloodshed, it should lose no time in adopting a strong and bold policy. His Highness the Maharaja Bahadur should declare Kashmir independent immediately.

A separate constituent assembly to frame the constitution for the state according to the wishes of the people, should be established at once. His Highness the Maharaja Bahadur will receive the cooperation of Muslims in carrying out this policy. The Muslims form 80% of the population. They are represented by the Muslim Conference. The Muslims will welcome the Maharaja Bahadur as the first constitutional ruler of independent and democratic Kashmir.





Resolution Kisan Mazdoor Conference

September 5, 1947


The most important national problem facing the people of Jammu and Kashmir at the present moment is whether the State should accede to India or to Pakistan. The future of the country depends on the solution of this problem. If it is solved in a right way the four million State people can live peacefully and comfortably in future; they will then also make sound progress. Otherwise the State shall have to face civil war and ruin. Five months ago meetings of the Working Committee and the General Council of theKisan Mazdoor Conference were held at Achhabal on 6th and 7th April.

A resolution was adopted in these meetings advising the Maharaja of Kashmir that after establishing friendly relations with both the Congress and the Muslim League he should declare the independence of the State and that simultaneously he should introduce complete responsible Government in the country. Things have moved with lightening rapidity during past five months. On 3rd June the British Government announced a plan of India's independence which has been accepted by both the Congress and the Muslim League. According to the plan the subcontinent has been partitioned on the very day of independence. Today the two dominions of India and Pakistan are in existence. The basic principle which guided the partition of the country according to 3rd June plan was that all the provinces and districts where Hindus are in majority have been included in the Indian Union and all those regions where Muslims are is a majority have been put together to form Pakistan.

The provinces of the Punjab and Bengal have been divided into two parts each under the operation of the same principle. The district of Sylhet in Assam has also been included in the province of East Pakistan according to it. British statesmen and the Indian politicians particularly the Congress leaders have advised the native rulers that they should join either of the two dominions and should in no case remain independent. Lord Mountbatten in his capacity as Viceroy made an important pronouncement that while deciding to accede to either dominion the Princes should take into consideration the geographical position of their respective States, that is, tile right decision for a State will be to accede to the dominion which is adjacent to it.

The Working Committee of the Kisan Mazdoor Conference has fully and carefully considered the developments of the last five months. It has also consulted the majority of the members of the General Council of the Conference. The Committee is of the opinion that there is now no alternative before the State but to join Pakistan. If she does not do so, the country and its people shall have to face immense trials and tribulations.

Hundreds of the States have already acceded to either the Indian Union or Pakistan in accordance with the principle on the basis of which the subcontinent was partioioned. At present only two of the States...Kashmir and Hyderabad...remain which have taken no decision yet. Recent developments show that these two states also cannot remain aloof for a long time and soon they shall have to decide about their future.

The overwhelming majority of Kashmir's population is Muslim. The State is contiguous with Pakistan territories. All the three big highways and all the rivers of the State go into Pakistan. For these reasons the Working Committee is of the opinion that the State should cede to Pakistan. This alone will be the natural and the right course to adopt. The state cannot remain independent; nor can it, owing to its overwhelming Muslim population and being adjacent to the Pakistan territories, accede to India. The Working Committee hold the view that the majority of the population desire to accede to Pakistan and the welfare of the 39 Lakhs of peasants and workers also lies in this.

The Working Committee appeals to all the people of the State in general, to whatever section, caste or creed they belong, and the working classes in particular that they should unanimously request the Maharaja to declare the State's accession to Pakistan.

If the Maharaja entertains any doubts about the obvious public opinion that the State should accede to Pakistan then he should order a referendum in which all adults should have the right to vote on the issue whether the State should accede to India or to Pakistan.

The Working Committee hopes that the people from all parts of the State will support this democratic method of solution so that peace is maintained and the country can progress.




Resolution of Kashmir Socialist Party

September 18, 1947


The Kashmir Socialist party has given their best and closest consideration to the question whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir should accede to India or to Pakistan or it should remain independent. The Party is of the opinion that in view of the developments during the last few months the natural and the best course for the State to adopt would be to join Pakistan and not India. For obvious and substantial reasons the Party believes that the State cannot remain independent. After mature consideration the Party has arrived at the decision that in the best interests of the poor and backward people accesion to Pakistan is desirable. The Party impresses upon the Maharaja that without any further unnecessary delay he should make an announcement accordingly.




Kashmir-Pak Standstill Agreement

Telegram from Prime Minister, Kashmir State, to Sardar Abdur Rob Nishtor, States Relations Department, Karachi

12th August, 1947




Jammu and Kashmir Government would welcome Standstill Agreements with Pakistan on all matters on which these exist at present moment with outgoing British Indian Government. It is suggested that existing arrangements should continue pending settlement of details and formal execution of fresh agreement.




Telegram from Foreign Secretary, Government of Pakistan, Karachi,
to Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir


15th August, 1947



Your telegram of the 12th. The Government of Pakistan agree to have a Standstill Agreement of Jammu and Kashmir for the continuance of the existing arrangements pending settlement of details and formal execution of fresh agreements.
 
Am collating all information in a chronological order so that all members can understand what transpired till date. It is not only frustrating but downright dismaying that you claim a territory as part of your country, yet paint the people there in one broad stroke of being anti-national.

It is also frustrating to see Indian media and even senior government/army officer's make a mess when firing takes place across RS Pura and in Jammu, Sambha and Kathua, which is a recognised international Boundary as per the Karachi Agreement of 1948 and officially we call it LC ceasefire violation thereby making a legally recognised part of India disputed. The Pakistanis have smartly realised their faux pas and started terming it the 'working boundary'.

An example of perpetuation of ignorance and harming of national interests.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/paki...-international-border-in-samba-sector-1235833

That this habit of shooting ourselves in our foot is a norm for us Indians, is something that frustrates me, I see the ignorance here itself. My aim is only to seek all members' help so that we all understand the facts as they stand. Hence all data that I can find I shall be posting. We (Indians) loose our narrative with our ignorance. I don't see anyone challenge the figure of 700000 troops in J&K which comes up ever so often except for @Joe Shearer who debunks the figure every odd day. That is because Indians themselves are unaware and don't want to learn.

Things which are clear for me:

1. Indian Accession Act of 1947 was the legal binding document at the time which formed the base for existence of both India and Pakistan.

2. The accession of Maharaja of Kashmir to Dominion of India was valid and legal under Para 3(a) of the Indian Accession Act of 1947.

I shall add on to above list once I post the relevant documents. The facts have to be ver clear for all concerned. This war (over Kashmir) is over - Pakistan has lost it diplomatically at the international forum, militarily it is never going to be in a position to force the issue. It remains on India to loose it perceptually, something which we are en-route on seeing the political apathy and ham handed approach there.

Statement of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah on Indian States
1946

(Extract)

The Indian States problems are closely linked up with those of British India. They are common both to British India and Indian States. The British are well aware of the position, indicated by the two lines of defence on which British Imperialism could rely. The first line of defence lies in the question of the Congress League understanding, with the implication of Hindu-Muslim unity. The second line of defence rests on the position of the Princes who, in the eye of British Imperialism, should be safeguarded.

With such a prospect before the people of India, it is necessary both for the people of British India and those of the Indian States to coordinate and merge the movements into a single channel. In order to do this, the people's organizations in the States should be strengthened.

The problem of the people in the States is primarily one of removing autocracy and establishing full responsible government. That objective cannot be achieved unless a united front is offered by the people. After the State's people's Conference at Udaipur I feel that the people in the States are now awakened more than ever before. There is now a more widespread political consciousness among them. It is true that sentiments have lately played a great part in the politics of the Country, particularly in British India. Take the instance of the cry of Pakistan. It was born of distress. Now it is stripped of all reasons. The question before the Muslims will be whether the realization of Pakistan is a blessing to them. I personally think that Pakistan will not help the Muslim masses but hinder them in their struggle for political and economic emancipation. In our State this question however, does not arise, because an overwhelming
majority of the people are Muslims and there is no need to fear Hindu domination.

The statements and acts of Sheikh Abdullah in the years preceding Independence are of extreme importance as he was the recognised leader of the masses of the J&K. His shift in position on the question of Kashmir at varying times is an interesting study by itself.

Quit Kashmir speech of Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah
May, 26, 1946


The tyranny of the Dogras has lacerated our souls. The Kashmiris are the most handsome people, yet the most wretched looking. It is time for action. To end your poverty, you must fight slavery and enter the field of Jehad as soldiers. The fight slogan of our struggle is not only for our State but for the whole of India. India is fighting against Imperialism. The slogan was given on the banks of River Ravi ... Then came the slogan of 'Quit India.' The British gained hold of India by the force of arms and by treachery. The rulers of the Indian States who possess one-fourth of India, have always played traitors to the cause of Indian freedom.

The demand that the Princely Order should quit is a logical extension of the policy of 'Quit India.' When the Indian freedom movement demands the complete withdrawal of British power, logically enough the stooges of British Imperialism also should go and restore sovereignty to its real owners - the people. When we raise the slogan of 'Quit Kashmir,' we naturally visualise that the Princes and Swabs should quit all the States. I am sure this demand applies similarly to a State like Hyderabad where the people will, I am sure, raise their voice, 'Quit Hyderabad.'

Those Hindus who think along with Mr. R.C. Kak that the Dogra rule should remain, should never forget that we are treated in Kashmir as a bought-up race without distinction of religion. Handcuffs jingle. They do not make us afraid. God will dive us faith in victory. The voice of truth will prevail. Prophets have spoken for the truth, which has always triumphed finally.


Sovereignty is not the birthright of a ruler. Every man, woman and child will shout 'Quit Kashmir'. The Kashmiri nation has expressed its will. I ask for a plebiscite on this question.

That was the first time a demand for plebiscite was made. It is pertinent to note that Sheikh Abdullah at this time was himself not in favour of Pakistan and indeed felt that the formation of Pakistan would not be any major step in looking after the interests of Muslims especially.

His demand for plebiscite was from the rule of the Dogras, something which India may have re-affirmed at the tome of signing of the Instrument of Accession.


Press Statement: Chowdhry Hamidullah Khan

President Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference

10th May, 1947


The British Paramountcy of the States has come to an end. It has been transferred to the people. No solution has so far been found out for conceding the demands of various communities living in India. If Kashmir has to keep itself aloof from carnage and bloodshed, it should lose no time in adopting a strong and bold policy. His Highness the Maharaja Bahadur should declare Kashmir independent immediately.

A separate constituent assembly to frame the constitution for the state according to the wishes of the people, should be established at once. His Highness the Maharaja Bahadur will receive the cooperation of Muslims in carrying out this policy. The Muslims form 80% of the population. They are represented by the Muslim Conference. The Muslims will welcome the Maharaja Bahadur as the first constitutional ruler of independent and democratic Kashmir.




Resolution Kisan Mazdoor Conference

September 5, 1947


The most important national problem facing the people of Jammu and Kashmir at the present moment is whether the State should accede to India or to Pakistan. The future of the country depends on the solution of this problem. If it is solved in a right way the four million State people can live peacefully and comfortably in future; they will then also make sound progress. Otherwise the State shall have to face civil war and ruin. Five months ago meetings of the Working Committee and the General Council of theKisan Mazdoor Conference were held at Achhabal on 6th and 7th April.

A resolution was adopted in these meetings advising the Maharaja of Kashmir that after establishing friendly relations with both the Congress and the Muslim League he should declare the independence of the State and that simultaneously he should introduce complete responsible Government in the country. Things have moved with lightening rapidity during past five months. On 3rd June the British Government announced a plan of India's independence which has been accepted by both the Congress and the Muslim League. According to the plan the subcontinent has been partitioned on the very day of independence. Today the two dominions of India and Pakistan are in existence. The basic principle which guided the partition of the country according to 3rd June plan was that all the provinces and districts where Hindus are in majority have been included in the Indian Union and all those regions where Muslims are is a majority have been put together to form Pakistan.

The provinces of the Punjab and Bengal have been divided into two parts each under the operation of the same principle. The district of Sylhet in Assam has also been included in the province of East Pakistan according to it. British statesmen and the Indian politicians particularly the Congress leaders have advised the native rulers that they should join either of the two dominions and should in no case remain independent. Lord Mountbatten in his capacity as Viceroy made an important pronouncement that while deciding to accede to either dominion the Princes should take into consideration the geographical position of their respective States, that is, tile right decision for a State will be to accede to the dominion which is adjacent to it.

The Working Committee of the Kisan Mazdoor Conference has fully and carefully considered the developments of the last five months. It has also consulted the majority of the members of the General Council of the Conference. The Committee is of the opinion that there is now no alternative before the State but to join Pakistan. If she does not do so, the country and its people shall have to face immense trials and tribulations.

Hundreds of the States have already acceded to either the Indian Union or Pakistan in accordance with the principle on the basis of which the subcontinent was partioioned. At present only two of the States...Kashmir and Hyderabad...remain which have taken no decision yet. Recent developments show that these two states also cannot remain aloof for a long time and soon they shall have to decide about their future.

The overwhelming majority of Kashmir's population is Muslim. The State is contiguous with Pakistan territories. All the three big highways and all the rivers of the State go into Pakistan. For these reasons the Working Committee is of the opinion that the State should cede to Pakistan. This alone will be the natural and the right course to adopt. The state cannot remain independent; nor can it, owing to its overwhelming Muslim population and being adjacent to the Pakistan territories, accede to India. The Working Committee hold the view that the majority of the population desire to accede to Pakistan and the welfare of the 39 Lakhs of peasants and workers also lies in this.

The Working Committee appeals to all the people of the State in general, to whatever section, caste or creed they belong, and the working classes in particular that they should unanimously request the Maharaja to declare the State's accession to Pakistan.

If the Maharaja entertains any doubts about the obvious public opinion that the State should accede to Pakistan then he should order a referendum in which all adults should have the right to vote on the issue whether the State should accede to India or to Pakistan.

The Working Committee hopes that the people from all parts of the State will support this democratic method of solution so that peace is maintained and the country can progress.



Resolution of Kashmir Socialist Party

September 18, 1947


The Kashmir Socialist party has given their best and closest consideration to the question whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir should accede to India or to Pakistan or it should remain independent. The Party is of the opinion that in view of the developments during the last few months the natural and the best course for the State to adopt would be to join Pakistan and not India. For obvious and substantial reasons the Party believes that the State cannot remain independent. After mature consideration the Party has arrived at the decision that in the best interests of the poor and backward people accesion to Pakistan is desirable. The Party impresses upon the Maharaja that without any further unnecessary delay he should make an announcement accordingly.




Kashmir-Pak Standstill Agreement

Telegram from Prime Minister, Kashmir State, to Sardar Abdur Rob Nishtor, States Relations Department, Karachi

12th August, 1947




Jammu and Kashmir Government would welcome Standstill Agreements with Pakistan on all matters on which these exist at present moment with outgoing British Indian Government. It is suggested that existing arrangements should continue pending settlement of details and formal execution of fresh agreement.



Telegram from Foreign Secretary, Government of Pakistan, Karachi,
to Prime Minister of Jammu and Kashmir


15th August, 1947



Your telegram of the 12th. The Government of Pakistan agree to have a Standstill Agreement of Jammu and Kashmir for the continuance of the existing arrangements pending settlement of details and formal execution of fresh agreements.

If we have to explain Indian actions after 1947 with respect to Kashmir
then we must go back further into the Freedom movement and Pakistan movement

Indian leaders had Fresh memories of all that happened in the years leading upto 1947

So they were WISE in HINDSIGHT

Hence we eroded Article 370 ; and DID not trust the Kashmiris

We knew that Pakistani influences would work their way into Kashmiri hearts and they
would ask for freedom -- after some years

We only did what was in Our Interest
 
@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

Legally speaking there are Two major narratives

Kashmiri narrative and Indian narrative

No, there is only a single narrative, and that is the narrative offered by the rule of law.

Kashmiri narrative says that after 1953 ; Article 370 was eroded ; and diluted

Today Kashmir has no real autonomy -- That may be true from their perspective

But from Indian perspective Kashmir is STILL the Most autonomous state of India

"We raped you, but let you live. What more can you expect?"

What an infamous explanation. It is not for achieving the status of the MOST autonomous state of India that anyone has set his or her objective. It is for the preservation of the foundation of the legal rights of India to Kashmir. By eroding this foundation, we are eroding our rights to Kashmir itself, and allowing it to reduce itself to the might of the majority and the rights of conquest.

This relativistic approach is beyond contempt.

What we did after after 1953 was to extend certain basic features of the Indian state
such as the WRIT of Supreme Court ; All India Sevices like IAS and IPS
Election Commission of India to Hold Elections and above all the power of the Central Government under Article 356 to dismiss a state government

There was NOTHING wrong with these extensions (almost nothing); there was EVERYTHING wrong with the illegal manner in which they were introduced. Article 370 returns to the root of the accession, by stating that whatever changes in the three lists of subjects were to be made, would be made with the consent of the J&K State Assembly, not by puppet Governors; that latter expedient is only a fig-leaf, although it is a tangible, visible fig-leaf that serves its purpose.

It is worth pointing out that by extending the writ of the Supreme Court to the practise of jurisprudence in the State, an avoidable source of confusion has been created. Who will adjudicate cases of violation of the legal basis of accession? The J&K High Court, or the Supreme Court? It should be the J&K High Court, and that High Court has made an observation or two already showing that its views are oriented to the legality of the matter under consideration, taking into view the nature of the accession of the Kashmiri State to India.

IRONICALLY the expansion of the rights and powers of Indian Parliament and Central Government -- relating to Kashmir was done by NEHRU and Indira Gandhi

They were quite open and explicit about it --That they have eroded Article 370

What is ironic about it? Nehru's tenure saw the worst breaches of the legal position; it goes back to Rajendra Prasad arguing without avail that getting him to sign Ordinances bringing laws into Kashmir by the back door was grossly illegal. He was 'persuaded'; so were subsequent individuals who resisted.

The Congress was the worst cancer to attack the legality of the situation.

And today Congress is talking of autonomy for Kashmir

Oh, now the source of the verbal pyrotechnics becomes clear.

All kinds of tools and techniques were used ; pliable CMs ; dismissing State Governments
Imprisoning Sheikh Abdullah ; rigging elections by the Congress

The ends justified the means

I have no comment about such abysmal folly and stupidity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So after violence erupted in 1989 such steps taken by Nehru and Indira look
perfectly justified and appropriate otherwise we would not have been able
to Control Kashmir

There was NOTHING in the steps and measures taken that prevented them from being taken without the gratuitous interference with Article 370's restrictions on the actions of the central and state governments.NOTHING.

This is just a post-facto justification of Nehru's inherent centralising tendency.

The dismissal of the Kerala Government that he deputed Indira to undertake would have been IMPOSSIBLE in today's Election Commission and Supreme Court. We have actually evolved considerably, especially after the coming of Seshan and before him, Lyngdoh.

Kashmiris have been OBSESSED about Their being different and Autonomy
and the Article 370 right from 1953 onwards

Even before the violence began they used to talk of Betrayal by the Gandhis
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is all about the Kashmiri Mindset

The violence would have have happened anyway --it was waiting to happen

It is just that we can tackle it legally and constitutionally now

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Indira Gandhi said to The Abdullahs -- The CLOCK cannot be turned back --way back in 1975

And that is how it is going to be

There is no point in dealing with rubbish like this. I have no comment.
 
The dismissal of the Kerala Government that he deputed Indira to undertake would have been IMPOSSIBLE in today's Election Commission and Supreme Court.

Kerala is different from Kashmir

Kerala was never going to secede ; We knew what was in Kashmiri Hearts

We PRE EMPTED them ; what is wrong in it

There is no point in dealing with rubbish like this. I have no comment.

But I have many things to say

Countries are KNOWN for their successes and Mocked for their Failures

Look at China ; They have made Tibet and Xinjiang as half Han --( I dont have a better term )

Such Wishy washy weepy bleeding hearts attitudes DO NOT give you territory

You have to be RUTH LESS for getting Land and keeping it

We must remember

Veer Bhogya Vasundhara (वीर भोग्य वसुंधरा ) "The Brave Shall Inherit the Earth"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ironically We can also Learn from Pakistan in this respect

By the way you are 65 Plus

You should have protested in 1975 against Indian betrayals and perfidies

Full Marks to Nehru and Indira -- They made the MOST out of a BAD situation
 
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I think Indian Parliament can negotiate with State Assembly of Kashmir for more political autonomy. I mean, there is nothing shame in giving autonomy to Kashmir, due to their status and the way they joined their Indian Union.

1. My idea is based on Quebec Canada type agreement on Kashmir.
2. Kashmir can have its own laws and regulations without violating on India's principles on Secularism and fundamental rights enshrined in Indian constitution.
3. Kashmir must start giving green cards on the lines of Quebec to those who invest and those who marry Kashmiris.

It can be improved.
 
Just to inform those following this thread that I have to suffer in silence until my next billing cycle starts. All my high-speed connections in this cycle are exhausted, and I have too much on my plate to follow up and trim the plan.

However, it is necessary to mention in brief
  1. @hellfire has managed to get to the heart of the matter. The plebiscite demand originated not as a Kashmiri demand, but as the demand of all the subjects of the princely states. Preliminary steps to organise in those states were sternly discouraged by the British, but some movements flourished in spite of this evident displeasure; Abdullah led one of them, perhaps the most successful in the states. This, incidentally, is one of the reasons for selecting Mountbatten; as the King's close relative, and as a genuine war-hero and officer in high regard in the Royal Navy, a polo player with a book to his name (he wrote under the name 'Marco') and an affable host to many of the princes when they were in the UK: Mountbatten had huge influence with the princes. Most of them. There were always ugly, surly characters, but by and large, Mountbatten's charm prevailed. Hari Singh did what he did after huge counselling (not persuasion for India, but genuine counselling).
  2. Everyone changed positions a lot in 1935 to 1947, Sheikh Abdullah among them, but he was in good company. Jinnah changed positions, Nehru changed positions, Patel changed positions but more or less in sync with Gandhi, and Gandhi shifted and turned and bent and stretched as much as anyone else, if not more. The trouble was that nobody knew for sure, until Dicky Mountbatten returned from the UK as Viceroy, with the advice from his 'sammandhi' (George's daughter had married Mountbatten's sister's son) ringing in his ears, and Attlee's phlegmatic empiricism embedded in his mind. Abdullah was far from alone. The real heroes, Bacha Khan for one, never budged a millimetre from their principled stand.
More when I have band-width. And time to use it.
 
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