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A friend in need is a friend indeed - Turkey, China.

Chall bey phuddi kay manhoos Indian. Ja gand marwa amreeka say. Idher ziyada critical analysis na peesh kiya karr, haramkhor!
Lol first time I've seen a Pakistani go all Lahori here on PDF :enjoy:

I think its very unfortunate that there is a fair share of Pakistanis only seeing conservative Turks as their brothers while they call secular Turks ''wanna be Europeans'' etc. even in this very forum.
For Turks there is no question on how to view Pakistan the sentiment is the same whether he is secular or conservative.

I will just say something that is often being ignored but its very saddening to see the salafism spreading in Pakistan which causes the situation i described above, it didnt bring any good for Pakistan and will just make things, if anything, then worse.
Most ppl in Pak that I've come across hold Turkey in high regard. I guess the ones u r describing who think of secular Turks as wannabe Europeans would be more inclined to be hardcore KSA fans...

I love KSA(the land) for the meaning it holds for me...but I don't like the KSA regime. They will sell Pakistan or any other country(even their own ppl) in a heartbeat if it came down to it.
 
The Pakistanis that you mention are arseholes of the nth degree. They would even sell Pakistan or their own mothers in a heartbeat if any Arap country was in trouble.

Forget them. And by the way, they are a minuscule minority and are being pounded nowadays, day and night.

I think its very unfortunate that there is a fair share of Pakistanis only seeing conservative Turks as their brothers while they call secular Turks ''wanna be Europeans'' etc. even in this very forum.
For Turks there is no question on how to view Pakistan the sentiment is the same whether he is secular or conservative.

I will just say something that is often being ignored but its very saddening to see the salafism spreading in Pakistan which causes the situation i described above, it didnt bring any good for Pakistan and will just make things, if anything, then worse.
 
I think its very unfortunate that there is a fair share of Pakistanis only seeing conservative Turks as their brothers while they call secular Turks ''wanna be Europeans'' etc. even in this very forum.
Well, that sadly is true but trust me "wannabe Europeans" tag is lampooned against Pakistani's who have more 'open outlook'. Indeed that sentiment merely exposes the backward minds of such people. What you must keep in mind is that geography in many ways has been advantageous to Turkey. By being on the cusp of Europe you were exposed to the advances that European Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. We remained in the dark. Whereas exposure innoculated you and helped to reform your society under Ataturk we remained in the dark. Until one day in walked the British invaders. That was a shock but instead of innoculating and adapting the post colonial period only gave us a reaction. A reactionery thinking that opposed any aspects of Enlightenment.

To be sure the British left behind a small class of educated and progressive individuels. Jinnah, Sir Allama Iqbal etc being good examples. Ayub Khan continued that tradition but by 1970s the reactionery group began to gain traction and the process picked pace as it soon began to recieve Saudi petro-dollars. Salafism mated with reactionery mullahs. The small progressive and powerful elite might have come out on top but the Cold War era geo-strategy favoured cultivating far right reactionery mullahs as a hedge against communists. The Rawalpindi Conspiracy had put the fear of god into the secular elite of a communist plot to take over. With US, Saudi patronage the mullahs were built up and the Afghan jihad of 1980s effectively consolidated the postion of the reactionery mullahs.

By this stage Pakistan had in fact almost fallen under the sway of mullah power. Although they have not ruled the country but their influence has penetrated (akin to Gulenists) into every aspect of the state. Even those who are not religious now are obliged to wear religion on the sleaves.

But I think we have passed the high water mark in about 2014. The ruling elite now understand that the state is in danger if they do not get a grip on the reactionery madness fuelled by salafism. The Pakistani Taliban's open war against the state has woken them up. But a aggregate inertia built up over four decades is not easy now to reverse. It will take time. I am confident in another generation Pakistan will be back on the path toward enlightenment. My confidence is hinged on two things.

The international climate now is not conductive to Islamism. The Cold War era habit of cultivating Islamists against communists is now thing of the past. Even Saudia is looking toward reforming.
Pakistan is now clearly aligned into a emerging Sinosphere. The $65 billion CPEC initiative by China is mainfestation of Chinese long term strategic banking on Pakistan. Pakistan is not seen exactly as a shining star in the west. It has India next door a country that is nearly seven times more populous and has the same asymmetry as Belgium/Germany. Pakistan needs to have a strong external ally. Right now China is the only emerging superpower that can fill that role and you see the dependency which will increase as we move forward on China. That country is a uber-athiest state.

Now think about oil and water. You think rampant salafism and Islamism can go with uber-athiesm? The Chinese will exert their influence and part of that is going to clash with the forces of Islamism. Over the long term Pakistan will be forced to adapt. No Pakistan will not go athiest but expect watering down of the forces of darkness in Pakistan. Certainly secularists like me look on with a satisfied grin on how the 'ironclad' friendship will play out. Oil and water do not mix. Something has to give and I know who is going to have to give.

Read this thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...tion-of-muslim-citizens.546917/#post-10296965 how China resolves the issue of Islamists and my post #15.
 
Well, that sadly is true but trust me "wannabe Europeans" tag is lampooned against Pakistani's who have more 'open outlook'. Indeed that sentiment merely exposes the backward minds of such people. What you must keep in mind is that geography in many ways has been advantageous to Turkey. By being on the cusp of Europe you were exposed to the advances that European Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment. We remained in the dark. Whereas exposure innoculated you and helped to reform your society under Ataturk we remained in the dark. Until one day in walked the British invaders. That was a shock but instead of innoculating and adapting the post colonial period only gave us a reaction. A reactionery thinking that opposed any aspects of Enlightenment.

To be sure the British left behind a small class of educated and progressive individuels. Jinnah, Sir Allama Iqbal etc being good examples. Ayub Khan continued that tradition but by 1970s the reactionery group began to gain traction and the process picked pace as it soon began to recieve Saudi petro-dollars. Salafism mated with reactionery mullahs. The small progressive and powerful elite might have come out on top but the Cold War era geo-strategy favoured cultivating far right reactionery mullahs as a hedge against communists. The Rawalpindi Conspiracy had put the fear of god into the secular elite of a communist plot to take over. With US, Saudi patronage the mullahs were built up and the Afghan jihad of 1980s effectively consolidated the postion of the reactionery mullahs.

By this stage Pakistan had in fact almost fallen under the sway of mullah power. Although they have not ruled the country but their influence has penetrated (akin to Gulenists) into every aspect of the state. Even those who are not religious now are obliged to wear religion on the sleaves.

But I think we have passed the high water mark in about 2014. The ruling elite now understand that the state is in danger if they do not get a grip on the reactionery madness fuelled by salafism. The Pakistani Taliban's open war against the state has woken them up. But a aggregate inertia built up over four decades is not easy now to reverse. It will take time. I am confident in another generation Pakistan will be back on the path toward enlightenment. My confidence is hinged on two things.

The international climate now is not conductive to Islamism. The Cold War era habit of cultivating Islamists against communists is now thing of the past. Even Saudia is looking toward reforming.
Pakistan is now clearly aligned into a emerging Sinosphere. The $65 billion CPEC initiative by China is mainfestation of Chinese long term strategic banking on Pakistan. Pakistan is not seen exactly as a shining star in the west. It has India next door a country that is nearly seven times more populous and has the same asymmetry as Belgium/Germany. Pakistan needs to have a strong external ally. Right now China is the only emerging superpower that can fill that role and you see the dependency which will increase as we move forward on China. That country is a uber-athiest state.

Now think about oil and water. You think rampant salafism and Islamism can go with uber-athiesm? The Chinese will exert their influence and part of that is going to clash with the forces of Islamism. Over the long term Pakistan will be forced to adapt. No Pakistan will not go athiest but expect watering down of the forces of darkness in Pakistan. Certainly secularists like me look on with a satisfied grin on how the 'ironclad' friendship will play out. Oil and water do not mix. Something has to give and I know who is going to have to give.

Read this thread https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chin...tion-of-muslim-citizens.546917/#post-10296965 how China resolves the issue of Islamists and my post #15.
I wish all the best for Pakistan, may it get its past glorious days back.
 
There are no friends or foes in international geopolitics. Only the naive mislead themselves so.

Syed, what u said is bitter truth. India and Indians realised this few decades back and so our politicians and bureaucrats stopped glorifying Russia or any other country in thier discouse nation. We try ....in our country national interest .....to have relation with everyone....there is give and take...there is balancing....and yes.....Religion does not decide our relation. ......just mutual interests.


Its about time... Pakistan ploticians stops fooling their public with slogans like Jumma Chuma and Higher than Mountain etc ....which results in shock later and going too much out of the way and giving too much concessions ....while the love is on...here i point to China ....China also ditched u for their National interest ...and will ditch u again and again...no amount of u guys justifying their action will change the facts .

CPEC is in China's National Interest as it is in the interest of Pakistan. You have to negotiate better....they have lot of money and resources....you have to maxinize your returns. You should applaud the officer who put his foot down on that Dam proposal by China as it was not in the interest of Pakistan.

Pakistan is an Islamic country and will remain so because of people and not Mullas or Politicians or Terrorsit organization. Islam is not in danger in Pakistan or India or anywhere. No need to promote purerer islam in Pakistan which gives too much power to Mullas. Both Pakistan and Afghanistan were doing great and were awesome place and were better than India before Ziaulhaque destroyed everything to be in power. That progressive Pakistan and Afghanistan which was powered by people and not Mullas and Army..is what u should spire for.

Too much lecture but if we can fix issues....we can be free countries ....rich countries ...powerful country...
And not used by other nations....stands for both India and Pakistan.
 
Elhamdulillah!!! Infinite thanks and gratitude to the ONE and ONLY ONE LORD of the worlds to show through this FATF fiasco to the entire Alem-i Muslimin whom HE considers as the Last Castles of Islam!!! Moreover, it's again shown that the Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye hasn't been replaced yet, although it's physically gone for almost 100 years but it's spiritual ramifications are still there no matter what's done to erase it!!! And, the Aklman folks will immediately understand where the future leadership of the Islamic world lies. The rest doesn't even count...

La Galibe Ilallah.....


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Not sure why only saudia is made a scape goat and not china.
Both of them were thrown the bread crumbs and both happily accepted it, saudia were lured with full vote, and china with vice presidency.

Nothing was thrown at turkey hence they did not feel any need to change from the vote. Who is to guarantee that if turkey was not lured with something they would not have changed their vote like china and saudia did. But yea so far its turkey alone in that 37 member body that got defeated unanimously.
 
Somehow we are expecting that letting bearded barbarians run amok was going to stand as a great image especially with Sri Trump ji and his son in law’s buddy was going to stand by Pakistan?
China made a very wise decision and Turkey did their best too.
But the problem lies with us and trying to keep liabilites alive. We love those militant folks who have no problems destroying public property and turning us into a pig shithole from the human shithole we already are.

The press button and 4 biwi goats were useful when they were, and when they are not we get rid of them.

Want an example of where we took a sane decision? Those serbs that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of bosnian muslims? We now trade arms and help them profit because those arms are very effective in blowing Indian bodies sky high.

The Baloch tribesmen who planted ieds that killed hundreds of military men and civilians from other provinces and played into the hands of India and fought for tribal kahoots- we pardoned a bunch of them because the reciprocal family killing was only being counterproductive.. instead we found them some mundane jobs and met their roti, kapra makaan to keep them busy.

Those are known as smart decisions because they look to 20 years into the future, not tomorrows weeping for some mat hitting “I cant pray behind him” parroting goat and their prostitute hiring(oh yeah, take time to actually talk to people that monitor these gallum galoch or Kashmir azad or America murdabad chanting leaderships and their actual image will come out).

When India was sending IT guys to the US, our qaum was sending fraudsters and brother-sister marriage guys or hopping on trucks from mexico to be illigal immigrants and tax evaders- even those that got established don’t participate in local legislatures as such because their mosque leadership preached it as haram or darul harb while those that could dont bother and prefer doing the buy house , lease car, make kids doctors and die routine.
And now that the Indian literally runs up and down the US bureaucracy and in case of the Trump admin dots his otherwise white supremacist staff we whine like bitches.

Chootiya qaum hai Pakistani saare- report and curse me all you want but zaleel hona qismat nahin balke nasli masla hai.. and their “intellectuals” included.


To change we need to start thinking as a collective, not as individuals but as molecules of water in a river.
Think of Pakistan 20-30-50 years from now and plan pragmatically for that. Think of us as essentially unimportant but the future as necessary, because this individualism is what created Nawaz and Zardaris and dictatorship.. and creates Saddams and Qaddafis..
this individual has ruined Muslims worldwide.. and left us who we are today.
Either learn to behave as an organism, as a family.. or end the whole deal.
 
Whenever some sane person (he maybe Indian) speaks the truth, it is immediately attacked but nobody finds the reasons for the sane comment or the current situation. According to Indian and American media, China was persuaded to drop their objections in fatf (kindly Google to check) in lieu of vice-president seat in fatf. Because if China would have continued with objections then western countries would have blocked China seat. So logically China is seeing her own country's interests and China is not friend of any nation but see their country's interests first. Similar was the case of Saudi Arabia. Now for Pakistani friends one advice Please increase your International Standing rather than relying on other countries.
 
What interest Turkey has in holding a position against its ally of almost 7 decades in favor of a country it doesnt even officially share a mutual pefence pact at least other than a brotherly feeling and gratitude coming from past?


I think its very unfortunate that there is a fair share of Pakistanis only seeing conservative Turks as their brothers while they call secular Turks ''wanna be Europeans'' etc. even in this very forum.
For Turks there is no question on how to view Pakistan the sentiment is the same whether he is secular or conservative.

I will just say something that is often being ignored but its very saddening to see the salafism spreading in Pakistan which causes the situation i described above, it didnt bring any good for Pakistan and will just make things, if anything, then worse.
We love Turks irrespective of their thoughts
 
Elhamdulillah!!! Infinite thanks and gratitude to the ONE and ONLY ONE LORD of the worlds to show through this FATF fiasco to the entire Alem-i Muslimin whom HE considers as the Last Castles of Islam!!! Moreover, it's again shown that the Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye hasn't been replaced yet, although it's physically gone for almost 100 years but it's spiritual ramifications are still there no matter what's done to erase it!!! And, the Aklman folks will immediately understand where the future leadership of the Islamic world lies. The rest doesn't even count...

La Galibe Ilallah.....


View attachment 457170
Asalam-o-Alakum Thanks Brother for sharing this, but i want to know that i saw this symbol several times that there is one side the flag of Turkey & on the other side flag of Pakistan, can some one share the history of the symbol & is there any Prophesy (PBUH) behind it !
 
I never believed in so called ummah chuma, We should recall our troops from Saudi Arab. just look what palastine did with us they recalled there ambassador bcz he supported Kashmir. fk this so called ummah.

Note: Our Army and government should stop kissing asses of arabs, enough is enough.
Pakistan First.
 
Asalam-o-Alakum Thanks Brother for sharing this, but i want to know that i saw this symbol several times that there is one side the flag of Turkey & on the other side flag of Pakistan, can some one share the history of the symbol & is there any Prophesy (PBUH) behind it !

Green one represent caliphate. Red for ottomans. Nothing to do with Pakistan.

On topic, Thanks to Turkey. I am happy with China too for their vice presidency. We should seriously get rid of all the deficiencies as soon as possible.
 

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