Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Yeah, I never really understood the thinking behind buying 8 Chinese submarines in one contract.

Hopefully the Admirals know what they're doing.

 

[Mentee]

Now a Car seller will tell those Professionals how to make Policies and buy Defense Stuff






and Don't even Bother replying to this post as i know it will start from either " Kid " or " you Pakistani's "

@Rashid Mahmood @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 in case you spend half of your life serving in the Armed Force/Defnese , you Guys wasted that, instead you all should have went to US back in 70's and become a Car dealer and that give you enough confidence to Rant about Defense Acquisition/Policies/Strategy.. I am also thinking to Quite my M.phill and Future Plans to get a P.HD and become a car seller

If you don't have anything rational to put on the table then plz quit or prove him wrong by providing a darn ****** Logical opinion, thank you

 

[New World]

Now a Car seller will tell those Professionals how to make Policies and buy Defense Stuff
and Don't even Bother replying to this post as i know it will start from either " Kid " or " you Pakistani's "

@Rashid Mahmood @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 in case you spend half of your life serving in the Armed Force/Defnese , you Guys wasted that, instead you all should have went to US back in 70's and become a Car dealer and that give you enough confidence to Rant about Defense Acquisition/Policies/Strategy.. I am also thinking to Quite my M.phill and Future Plans to get a P.HD and become a car seller

well! this car seller is still much better than you and me.. He is taking country's security more seriously and with logical conclusion, not like some blind patriots..

He might have no idea deeply about the systems and weapons but he might be good strategic planner..

as for as PN planners they are babos in the Armed forces.. they just visit countries and do some personal shopping on the expenses of taxpayers, finish their terms and get retired from active service to start their corporate businesses.

PN was never good in their planning and lobbying.. they just simply wait idle until somebody from airforce or army say them buy something for yourself..

 

[MastanKhan]

Now a Car seller will tell those Professionals how to make Policies and buy Defense Stuff






and Don't even Bother replying to this post as i know it will start from either " Kid " or " you Pakistani's "

@Rashid Mahmood @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 in case you spend half of your life serving in the Armed Force/Defnese , you Guys wasted that, instead you all should have went to US back in 70's and become a Car dealer and that give you enough confidence to Rant about Defense Acquisition/Policies/Strategy.. I am also thinking to Quite my M.phill and Future Plans to get a P.HD and become a car seller

Hi,

Thank you for your input---. It is a sad day for a nation when its young and strong don't have a vision or a thinking of their own

Tom Clancy was an insurance sales man---" The Hunt For Red October "was the best seller in 1984----. It is the book that made russian submarine fleet stand ' naked ' & impotent in front of the world---.

Knowledge is available to ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK IT---.

You have only been on this board for 2 1/2 months---I have been writing here for 11 years now----and not a SINGLE strategic issue that I have written about---I have not been proven wrong---. And how I wish that I was---.

Many a superstars have come and gone eating dust---. You know why----because time will tell the truth---and I will be the first one to apologize and accept my mistake.

Give me one historical reference of a major war or a major conflict where one side was busy making battle shields and forgot to make the swords but still won the war---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Now a Car seller will tell those Professionals how to make Policies and buy Defense Stuff






and Don't even Bother replying to this post as i know it will start from either " Kid " or " you Pakistani's "

@Rashid Mahmood @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 in case you spend half of your life serving in the Armed Force/Defnese , you Guys wasted that, instead you all should have went to US back in 70's and become a Car dealer and that give you enough confidence to Rant about Defense Acquisition/Policies/Strategy.. I am also thinking to Quite my M.phill and Future Plans to get a P.HD and become a car seller

Yes sir, indeed, we watch the prophetic over simplified revelation by people and are reduced to sardonic chuckles.

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 10 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 10 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

Mr. MK,
your assumptions on Pakistan navy submarine program are based on publicly available information. Well, for your enlightenment, the publicly released information on the Pakistan future submarine programs and other underwater endeavors is deceptive on purpose, and conceals specific information. There is reasons for keeping the submarine arm a silent force, which you can continue to argue against. Some of us who are privy to the national secrets, who gave our blood and soul to this country's defence, who lost our dear ones in many high and low intensity conflicts, and continue to lose our children at the hands of terrorism, will continue to support the policy of keeping certain matters secret from public eye, specifically as it pertains to the current and future Submarine fleet.

You, on the other hand, have the right of your opinion, and talk whatever craziness that surrounds in you in your extradition aboard. While I know you have a genuine heart as you spend more time here (on this forum) than with your new comrades, your generalized assertions and opinions are entertaining to only you, and perhaps enlightening to the few souls who consider you as an "expert"

BR

Hi,

Thank you for your input---. It is a sad day for a nation when its young and strong don't have a vision or a thinking of their own

Tom Clancy was an insurance sales man---" The Hunt For Red October "was the best seller in 1984----. It is the book that made russian submarine fleet stand ' naked ' & impotent in front of the world---.

Knowledge is available to ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK IT---.

You have only been on this board for 2 1/2 months---I have been writing here for 11 years now----and not a SINGLE strategic issue that I have written about---I have not been proven wrong---. And how I wish that I was---.

Many a superstars have come and gone eating dust---. You know why----because time will tell the truth---and I will be the first one to apologize and accept my mistake.

Give me one historical reference of a major war or a major conflict where one side was busy making battle shields and forgot to make the swords but still won the war---.

Tall claims indeed. May I respond? The nation is in strong hands and has a vision, while the likes of you are unable, or unwilling to see as it will reduce your own blowing horn to a squeak.

To your 11 years on a builliten board, what credibility do you have? not much I must submit.

Indeed sir, history does not forbid well to super stars. Are you waiting that i bit the dust too? I may retire back to the ashes and dust but you shall as well.

I am yet to see you accept any of your mistakes, including all your vile opinions, your uncouth and insulting assertions, and your anti Pakistan propaganda which maligns the hearts of many young readers. What is your agenda really?

I will give you the reference which you may not be able to digest. The first war of Islam, when the 313 stood for battle on the call of the prophet (p.b.u.h) and his true love, how many swords and horses did they have?

You are a used car salesman, show monger and a tabloid journalist at the most. May the lord guide you to open your mind, and look beyond your "world" as there is always an ocean of information you are/were/will remain unaware of.

 

[That Guy]

I actually agree...mostly.

The navy needs better financial support, as it is becoming abundantly clear that the main threat from India is increasingly from its navy, and not its land forces. The Indian army can be stopped in their tracks with Pakistan's current capabilities, but the India navy outclasses PN. If India were to successfully take Pakistan's shores, and IN has the capability to do so (albeit with difficulty), Pakistan would have to deal with Indian forces coming from sea.

I am VERY VERY SURPRISED that the pakisytani openl;y admitted that a indian conventionl submarine got to within 40km of Pakistan coastline.

In a future war an indian submarine could potentially be firing cruise missles from 200km away

A lot of Pakistanis may be...nationalistic, but a majority are not delusional. If the PA, PAF or PN screw up, the citizens are usually the first ones to be up in arms about the security lapse.

 

[Darth Vader]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 10 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 10 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

Here Comes The Same Story Again ,
Pakistan Military Force missed that , they didnt Do that

Because Thankfully you are not the one whos was incharge of PN or PAF Amazon Shopping Wishlist
Why Didnt PN go For Surface Fleet , Because Even if you add 5 to 6 10000, 20000 Ton Ships to your Fleet They Wont be able to Fight Full Indian Navy , no matter how superior or bigger they are why because Indian Army has Too many Vessel Fleet , Neither Pakistan has that much Capital That Pakistan Can Go Ship vs Ship Against India Now With These Subs China wont wait till all the subs till all of them are ready and sent them in a gift Bag as soon as Subs are ready Pakistan will start getting these Subs Which will give them to train crews and Get hands on Experience
yes Pakistan Lacks Heavy birds but My Dear Friend 1950s are Gone You Could only use heavy bombers against a enemy which doeskin have superior Air Warfare weapons
Tell me Against a MKI or Rafale what system will you deploy , f 16 block 52 , or the Thunder with block 3 Upgrades i m using these two birds these are the most Capable System in Pakistan Arsenal
Why would you buy Heavy Bombers , When You need Air Superiority fighters because Bombers will only give you benefit when you have the Full Air and Ground control and Sure there are no Sams in the area unless you are willingly destroying Good Capable Assets

Before making dream Team you need to Keep eye on The Pakistan Capital , With so little , I m amazed how they are keeping such a big Force with Decent weapon systems

 

[Centurion2016]

I actually agree...mostly.

The navy needs better financial support, as it is becoming abundantly clear that the main threat from India is increasingly from its navy, and not its land forces. The Indian army can be stopped in their tracks with Pakistan's current capabilities, but the India navy outclasses PN. If India were to successfully take Pakistan's shores, and IN has the capability to do so (albeit with difficulty), Pakistan would have to deal with Indian forces coming from sea.


A lot of Pakistanis may be...nationalistic, but a majority are not delusional. If the PA, PAF or PN screw up, the citizens are usually the first ones to be up in arms about the security lapse.

Modern wars are decided by Air & Sea power... as these arms are far more mobile and far more flexible.

A large standing army is slow and inefficient and will end up a stalement.

I do believe in a next indo pak war the indian Navy will cause more damage than the Army & even the Air Force

 

[Lavrentiy]

Yeah, I never really understood the thinking behind buying 8 Chinese submarines in one contract.

Hopefully the Admirals know what they're doing.

I believe the order of 8 submarines is understandable since the Admirals know that the chances of survival are higher for submarines than for surface combatants that will have to face hyper-sonic anti-ship cruise missiles like the Brahmos.

 

[Darth Vader]

I actually agree...mostly.

The navy needs better financial support, as it is becoming abundantly clear that the main threat from India is increasingly from its navy, and not its land forces. The Indian army can be stopped in their tracks with Pakistan's current capabilities, but the India navy outclasses PN. If India were to successfully take Pakistan's shores, and IN has the capability to do so (albeit with difficulty), Pakistan would have to deal with Indian forces coming from sea.


A lot of Pakistanis may be...nationalistic, but a majority are not delusional. If the PA, PAF or PN screw up, the citizens are usually the first ones to be up in arms about the security lapse.

Since The Started Indian Always out numbered Pakistani Forces , So they cant Support Bullet ot Bullet Theory

as for the now Indian Navy Fully Blocking Pakistani Waters its not Gone Happen , because Pakistan Will Defend most of its Sea Area by Medium to Long Range Land Systems
and Pakistan navy will use its Subs for offence , While Deploying its Heavy Ships Close to Land so they could be covered , Thats the one main reason Navy is Going for Fast Long Range Missile Ships
Because if you see there Budget any Sane Person will do the same Thing

 

[That Guy]

Modern wars are decided by Air & Sea power... as these arms are far more mobile and far more flexible.

A large standing army is slow and inefficient and will end up a stalement.

I do believe in a next indo pak war the indian Navy will cause more damage than the Army & even the Air Force

I'd say that only if the Pakistan navy continues to be neglected. There are good signs that Pakistan is starting re prioritize its naval assets, considering just how important sea trade is becoming to Pakistan's future.

 

[YeBeWarned]

If you don't have anything rational to put on the table then plz quit or prove him wrong by providing a darn ****** Logical opinion, thank you

I read his Post twice and i realize there is NOTHING RATIONAL to reply too .. have you even read what he Post ? i doubt ...

well! this car seller is still much better than you and me.. He is taking country's security more seriously and with logical conclusion, not like some blind patriots..

He might have no idea deeply about the systems and weapons but he might be good strategic planner..

as for as PN planners they are babos in the Armed forces.. they just visit countries and do some personal shopping on the expenses of taxpayers, finish their terms and get retired from active service to start their corporate businesses.

PN was never good in their planning and lobbying.. they just simply wait idle until somebody from airforce or army say them buy something for yourself..

Does it matter if his D is bigger than mine ? what matter's here that if you posting something than it must based on Facts and Figures until a Senior member like him avoid it ... I don't have any knowledge on Defense section because that is not what i am Studying for .. if i was i would have replied to him in more Professional way, but i keep things as its my Opinion and not Cry out loud about how Awesome i get after selling some Toyota's in some Small town of US of A ..

now as for your PN comment , i will leave that on Professional as i have no knowledge about the Internal Lobbying which happen everywhere and Corruption which also happens Almost everywhere .. @Oscar must have something informative for you here ..

before you get into this Argument have you even ask Mr MK khan if he wants to be called a Pakistani ? LOL go and try to Ask him , or i recommend you to read his Comments how he refer me and You as " You Pakistani's " .. what i am assuming that this fellow is American and if a person from a Different country who did not even tight Screws in Armed forces and Criticizing + Insulting the Forces based on his Imaginary Rants with 0.00% facts ( as he never Present one ) .. i do have to reply , and i do have the right to ask him this Question that " Who on give you right to Insult our National Hero's And Armed forces blaming them for the ill and corruption while you sit in US and type this load of Crap ..

I do have my Freedom of expression here as well

 

[deckingraj]

I'd say that only if the Pakistan navy continues to be neglected. There are good signs that Pakistan is starting re prioritize its naval assets, considering just how important sea trade is becoming to Pakistan's future.

Actually if we look around that is what happening...Navies around the world are now regaining their lost glory(ww2 changed the trend in favor of Airforce).....thanks to piracy and globalization - securing sea routes are now even more important...also with nukes in South Asia i don't think Airforce can play a major roles without seriously challenging the nuclear threshold....so yes it is about time PN should seriously look at the geo-politics and address her issues....

 

[MastanKhan]

Yes sir, indeed, we watch the prophetic over simplified revelation by people and are reduced to sardonic chuckles.



Mr. MK,
your assumptions on Pakistan navy submarine program are based on publicly available information. Well, for your enlightenment, the publicly released information on the Pakistan future submarine programs and other underwater endeavors is deceptive on purpose, and conceals specific information. There is reasons for keeping the submarine arm a silent force, which you can continue to argue against. Some of us who are privy to the national secrets, who gave our blood and soul to this country's defence, who lost our dear ones in many high and low intensity conflicts, and continue to lose our children at the hands of terrorism, will continue to support the policy of keeping certain matters secret from public eye, specifically as it pertains to the current and future Submarine fleet.

You, on the other hand, have the right of your opinion, and talk whatever craziness that surrounds in you in your extradition aboard. While I know you have a genuine heart as you spend more time here (on this forum) than with your new comrades, your generalized assertions and opinions are entertaining to only you, and perhaps enlightening to the few souls who consider you as an "expert"

BR

Hi,

Respectfully---kaho khait ki---suno khalian ki---.

The first thing in car sales 101 is learn to listen to what is being said by the customer---because there is only the time of first 30---45 seconds where a decision has been made by the customer if they buy from you or not.

See---I do not have any issue with getting 8 submarines in the 10 years time period.

The issue I have is having the 5 billion dollars tied to ONE PROJECT for the term of 10 years.

This project could have been easily split in two 5 year periods---. The first 5 billion split in two--2 1/2 for 4 subs---and 2 1/2 billion for the navy and air force---.

And then at the begining of the 5th year another contract signed for 4 more subs.


The reason of it being signed like this is the COMMISION on 5 billion dollars and kick backs---.

With one item for purchase---the commission / kickback is much larger than if it would have included naval vessels and aircraft as well.

In this day and age---there is nothing deceptive about any program---be it on the surface or under waters---. Each and everything is in public domain---. Libraries in the U S are full of INNOCENT MATERIAL---you just need to know where and what to look for---.

Just like you invested your life in the air force---I invested mine in library books---full time.

You lose the chidlren because your screwed up in your assessment of the enemy---you guys wanted to make a vietnam of the U S in afghanistan---not realizing that over 4 million vietnamese died in that conflict and vietnam is still not the same---.

Not realizing that you were allowing a christian army to invade a muslim nation.

If you had listened to this car salesman some 15 years ago and gone in and killed OBL and his team in afg---and had a strong marketing / propaganda campaign against the fundos / terrorists---and not busy in blaming the U S for the 9/11---you would not have been in this place.

If you had listened to this car salesman---you would have made a much better deal with the U S---and what are the americans---they are CAR SALESMEN---the congressmen---the senators---the staffers---the president---the vice---they are worst than a car salesman.

If you had read the history of the Japans---you would have learnt---either they were a warrior clan---or they were a peasant / farmer clan---.

You would have learnt that the japanese warriors were very bad at making deals---but the peasants were very good deal makers---and so were the koreans.

All this blood shed and sacrifice that you mentioned---because you did not make the right deal---you did not recognize your enemy---you did not fight the enemy hard enough right from day one---.

Why were you not able to recognize the enemy---because of a lack of knowledge---because you have the lack of books in your country---no libraries to enlighten the mind and give you information.

Which one of you talks about Pakistan first and keep the islamic brotherhood away---.

If you had known world history---you would have known that there is blood gore death and destruction---murder and plunder of scales unknown from the lands where the U S military has gone thru---.

They murder and butcher in the name of their god---other nations may stop after awhile---but the U S does not know when to stop.

If you had read history my man---you would have know---not to let the Lion get the taste of Blood---. You would not have allowed the christians to kill the muslims---because once the christians found out---that the muslims die as easily as anyone else---they would not stop the killing---.

My brother---you are a good person at heart---we disagree on many issues---but trust me on this---I know the devil beyond your wildest imaginations---.