Another Chinese incursion, PLA's bomber JH-7 violates India's airspace in Aksai Chin

[Signalian]

@MastanKhan

Your advocacy of procuring JH-7 just got strengthened.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lol. Calm down, man. Just like you and Russia play with each other, China and India also poke each other. India even once attacked China in 1962. They shouldn't have joined in SCS. Better respect the neighbor.

Indian media is known for telling fairy tales. We should hear from neutral sources.

Actually, China attacked India. But that's all right; you do owe the all-weather friends a friendly puff or two.

 

[Signalian]

So it flew in Indian airspace for 107 minutes and the mighty Vayu Sena was shivering in her bunkers with her MKIs and Mirage-2000s?

shhhh......They thought that JH-7 has BVR missiles

IAF locks on non-BVR PAF F-16's only

 

[Joe Shearer]

So it flew in Indian airspace for 107 minutes and the mighty Vayu Sena was shivering in her bunkers with her MKIs and Mirage-2000s?

It all depends, dear Sir.

You do realise that flying around over land that their land forces control is hardly a violation of Indian air space, unless Indian air space continues to be coterminous with the borders claimed and subsequently violated?

shhhh......They thought that JH-7 has BVR missiles

IAF locks on non-BVR PAF F-16's only

You haven't mentioned the possibility that they thought it was a Pakistani plane and felt nervous. What an opportunity lost.

 

[Signalian]

....and it keeps on coming

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Actually, China attacked India. But that's all right; you do owe the all-weather friends a friendly puff or two.

Really?....China has not even attacked any country since their independence. They usually try to avoid war, case in example Tibet or Taiwan........despite so much differences, China never invaded them. Despite so much provoking by US in SCS, China still didn't invade Philippines or any other concerned party. They are continuously building Island and thats it. No war. I have read somewhere that China plays a long game and prevent anger from getting in their heads unlike India.

PM Nehru was stupid and as far as i know Indians also don't respect him much. According to Indians, he did a lot of blunders and attacking China was one of them...Attacking China while expecting Soviet Union help/support (ally of India) went terribly wrong. At that time USSR and China were at odds. Indians thought that USSR will lend them helping hand but it didn't.

British-Australian journalist, Mr Maxwell was the Delhi correspondent of the Times of London during the 1962 war. He declassified reports, blaming India, written by two Indian army officers; Lieutenant General Henderson Brooks and Brigadier General Premindra Singh Bhagat.

Henderson Brooks–Bhagat Report

Your government has tried to hide above mentioned report, which gives us the doubt that report may have some credibility. It was India's top secret report of 126 pages regarding 1962 war with China.

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/HENDERSON_BROOKS1.pdf

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/china-was-the-aggrieved-india-aggressor-in-62/282579

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...list-Neville-Maxwell/articleshow/33094229.cms

Do u agree?

 

[axisofevil]

Lol. Calm down, man. Just like you and Russia play with each other, China and India also poke each other. India even once attacked China in 1962. They shouldn't have joined in SCS. Better respect the neighbor.

Indian media is known for telling fairy tales. We should hear from neutral sources.

Indian attacked China in 1962?

 

[noksss]

So it flew in Indian airspace for 107 minutes and the mighty Vayu Sena was shivering in her bunkers with her MKIs and Mirage-2000s?

Even your mighty Forces were shivering in her bunkers when American did this

http://www.globalresearch.ca/violat...claim-that-it-allows-us-drone-strikes/5306631

 

[barbarosa]

The wrong estimates of powerful India will show some other results in near future

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Indian attacked China in 1962?

Highly likely.....Read my post no. 67.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Really?....China has not even attacked any country since their independence.

You seem very sure of your facts. Before getting into this, would you like to check your information once?

They usually try to avoid war, case in example Tibet or Taiwan

Indeed.

Their avoidance of war in the case of Tibet was quite remarkable.

........despite so much differences, China never invaded them.

Is one to understand from your remarks that the native population of Tibet was overwhelmed by an incursion of ethnic Han 'boat people'?

Despite so much provoking by US in SCS, China still didn't invade Philippines or any other concerned party. They are continuously building Island and thats it. No war. I have read somewhere that China plays a long game and prevent anger from getting in their heads unlike India.

Anger has little to do with why states fight wars. Populations get angry, immature individuals get angry, but states go to war for various reasons. Not one of these reasons is anger.

PM Nehru was stupid and as far as i know Indians also don't respect him much.

It would appear that the Indians you know belong to the younger group, who have been brought up on a staple theology, hatred of Muslims and Christians, and a staple ideology, a wishy-washy version of what the Europeans saw happening in their countries as fascism. There is also an element of blind faith in capitalism mingled with all this; apparently the licensing and centrally regulated mechanism of the early years of Indian independence was the real reason why Indian progress was held back.

According to Indians, he did a lot of blunders and attacking China was one of them...Attacking China while expecting Soviet Union help/support (ally of India) went terribly wrong. At that time USSR and China were at odds. Indians thought that USSR will lend them helping hand but it didn't.

You seem to have some strange friends among Indians. I will not deal with this in detail until you confirm that these are your considered views.

British-Australian journalist, Mr Maxwell was the Delhi correspondent of the Times of London during the 1962 war. He declassified reports, blaming India, written by two Indian army officers; Lieutenant General Henderson Brooks and Brigadier General Premindra Singh Bhagat.

The Henderson Brooks-Bhagat Report is widely known and is all over the Internet, and it does not show aggression on the part of India; it shows bad intelligence, poor reading of Chinese intentions, very bad generalship by a good for nothing who was thrust upon the Indian Army with no justification whatsoever by a baffling decision of the political leadership, and a clear, well-planned campaign on the part of the Chinese, who prepared for the conflict months before India even realised that there might be a problem.

Neville Maxwell wrote his own book about the war, "India's China War". Since you are quoting him at arm's length, you might as well read him.

Henderson Brooks–Bhagat Report

Your government has tried to hide above mentioned report, which gives us the doubt that report may have some credibility. It was India's top secret report of 126 pages regarding 1962 war with China.

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/HENDERSON_BROOKS1.pdf

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/china-was-the-aggrieved-india-aggressor-in-62/282579

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...list-Neville-Maxwell/articleshow/33094229.cms

Do u agree?

The report was credible, but avoided talking about political failures, which were at the root of the events that the report describes.

It did mention some very damaging facts about the politicians and about civil oversight, and as a result, it has been kept confidential.

Hiding it is a strange phrase to use; everybody is aware of the existence of the report, and copies are floating freely about the Internet. It is more a case of the political and civilian overseers of the military fearing an excessive reaction by the military itself, an exaggerated fear, but no doubt inspired by the tragic record of some of our neighbours.

As far as the events of the war were concerned, all the acts of violence were committed - exclusively - by the PLA, until war broke out. If you had been an older member, I would have referred you to the long and elaborate discussion on the events in the eastern theatre, conducted between a Chinese member and myself.

And, no, I don't agree.

Highly likely.....Read my post no. 67.

That post is a treasure-chest of half-baked and badly digested misinformation.

 

[axisofevil]

Highly likely.....Read my post no. 67.

You present it as fact ...come on bro...even the Chinese admitted it was "pre emptive" whatever that means!

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

You seem very sure of your facts. Before getting into this, would you like to check your information once?

Talking about China's involvement in Korean war? There's always an exception. isn't it?

Is one to understand from your remarks that the native population of Tibet was overwhelmed by an incursion of ethnic Han 'boat people'?

I was talking about political differences Chinese have with Taiwan, mainly.

Anger has little to do with why states fight wars. Populations get angry, immature individuals get angry, but states go to war for various reasons. Not one of these reasons is anger.

Agreed.

It would appear that the Indians you know belong to the younger group, who have been brought up on a staple theology, hatred of Muslims and Christians, and a staple ideology, a wishy-washy version of what the Europeans saw happening in their countries as fascism. There is also an element of blind faith in capitalism mingled with all this; apparently the licensing and centrally regulated mechanism of the early years of Indian independence was the real reason why Indian progress was held back.
You seem to have some strange friends among Indians. I will not deal with this in detail until you confirm that these are your considered views.

Basically, through Internet what i read views of Indians regarding Nehru. They were blaming him to give China support in UNSC and criticizing him in foreign policy matters regarding Pakistan too.

The Henderson Brooks-Bhagat Report is widely known and is all over the Internet, and it does not show aggression on the part of India; it shows bad intelligence, poor reading of Chinese intentions, very bad generalship by a good for nothing who was thrust upon the Indian Army with no justification whatsoever by a baffling decision of the political leadership, and a clear, well-planned campaign on the part of the Chinese, who prepared for the conflict months before India even realised that there might be a problem.
Neville Maxwell wrote his own book about the war, "India's China War". Since you are quoting him at arm's length, you might as well read him.
The report was credible, but avoided talking about political failures, which were at the root of the events that the report describes.
It did mention some very damaging facts about the politicians and about civil oversight, and as a result, it has been kept confidential.
Hiding it is a strange phrase to use; everybody is aware of the existence of the report, and copies are floating freely about the Internet. It is more a case of the political and civilian overseers of the military fearing an excessive reaction by the military itself, an exaggerated fear, but no doubt inspired by the tragic record of some of our neighbours.
As far as the events of the war were concerned, all the acts of violence were committed - exclusively - by the PLA, until war broke out. If you had been an older member, I would have referred you to the long and elaborate discussion on the events in the eastern theatre, conducted between a Chinese member and myself.
And, no, I don't agree.

ALRIGHT....but the article i posted in post 67...was from Indian media and those articles were titled by them....as India is aggressor and China is aggrieved. Did u read the interview of journalist from article i posted above? Then please tell me what he was saying in that article? if i didn't understand him correctly.

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/china-was-the-aggrieved-india-aggressor-in-62/282579

You present it as fact ...come on bro...even the Chinese admitted it was "pre emptive" whatever that means!

WHEN DID CHINESE ADMITTED THAT THEY INITIATED THE WAR?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Talking about China's involvement in Korean war? There's always an exception. isn't it?

Fair enough.

I wanted to know where you were coming from and the extent of your knowledge and information.

I was talking about political differences Chinese have with Taiwan, mainly.

And what about Tibet? Or is that too hot a potato?

Agreed.

Basically, through Internet what i read views of Indians regarding Nehru. They were blaming him to give China support in UNSC and criticizing him in foreign policy matters regarding Pakistan too.

Ah, I see. The armchair strategists on the rampage: you may count yourself lucky at having got away with minor, glancing injuries.

Very briefly, first, about China - the matter is really too boring to go into in detail - there are some India-first piss-proud idiots who think that India had a greater opportunity to get into the Security Council, compared to China, which was then Communist and was bitterly opposed by the US, and, as a direct consequence, by the UK and France as well.

If they had read about the Cairo Conference, and about the extent to which China mattered in the discussions among the allies, they might not have been so sure. It is true, on the other hand, that the US managed to keep the PRC at bay for many years, in favour of KMT China, Taiwan, that is, but to imply that Nehru simply gave it away is an over-simplification. The fanboys in question do like simple stuff, the simpler the better.

About Pakistan, they have many complaints against Nehru. It depends on whether at that moment, the person posting is for a forcible separation out of the Muslims (and Christians, but they could be lined up for later disposal) or for a united India, come what may. A plainly contradictory stance, but contradiction never stopped a bhakt...

First, Nehru never should have driven away Jinnah, they feel, Nehru and the Congress should never have given in to Jinnah's demand for separation. They plainly ignore the Jalal Thesis, that Jinnah never really wanted partition, that he was bluffing, but that Thesis is a later-day development and does not occur in the kind of messy writing that bhakts normally encounter.

Second, Nehru should never have given away Kashmir to the Pakistanis. This lot of bhakts is slightly different and can spout a little military strategy.

The fact is that the state of J&K was put together like a patched quilt over some 110 years or so, little patch by little patch. These forcibly integrated bits were ruled with brutal efficiency by the Dogras; there is no point in going into the horrific details in a summary. While the Dogras and the Sikhs were the only armed troops and only trained men in the state, it was a possible strategy. Once the Second World War broke out, things changed dramatically. In 1947, with West Jammu (now known as the Mirpur area, or Azad Kashmir to Kashmiris), awash with demobilised soldiers mainly from the Sudhan community, a flash point was inevitable. Sure enough, around early August, that region revolted, gladly accepted the arms and ammunitions passed on by Pakistani patriots in the Pakistan Army without the knowledge of their British superiors, and slaughtered the few States Forces troopers left. By the time the Maharaja acceded to India, Mirpur had effectively broken away, and Gilgit-Baltistan was on the way.

The bhakts, and quite a few others, expect that Nehru should have driven out the invaders and the subsequent PA intervention, BEFORE going to the UN. To my mind, this is a non-starter, but to a bhakt, any plank is good enough.

ALRIGHT....but the article i posted in post 67...was from Indian media and those articles were titled by them....as India is aggressor and China is aggrieved. Did u read the interview of journalist from article i posted above? Then please tell me what he was saying in that article? if i didn't understand him correctly.

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/china-was-the-aggrieved-india-aggressor-in-62/282579



WHEN DID CHINESE ADMITTED THAT THEY INITIATED THE WAR?

Could this wait till the evening?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Fair enough.

I wanted to know where you were coming from and the extent of your knowledge and information.




And what about Tibet? Or is that too hot a potato?




Ah, I see. The armchair strategists on the rampage: you may count yourself lucky at having got away with minor, glancing injuries.

Very briefly, first, about China - the matter is really too boring to go into in detail - there are some India-first piss-proud idiots who think that India had a greater opportunity to get into the Security Council, compared to China, which was then Communist and was bitterly opposed by the US, and, as a direct consequence, by the UK and France as well.

If they had read about the Cairo Conference, and about the extent to which China mattered in the discussions among the allies, they might not have been so sure. It is true, on the other hand, that the US managed to keep the PRC at bay for many years, in favour of KMT China, Taiwan, that is, but to imply that Nehru simply gave it away is an over-simplification. The fanboys in question do like simple stuff, the simpler the better.

About Pakistan, they have many complaints against Nehru. It depends on whether at that moment, the person posting is for a forcible separation out of the Muslims (and Christians, but they could be lined up for later disposal) or for a united India, come what may. A plainly contradictory stance, but contradiction never stopped a bhakt...

First, Nehru never should have driven away Jinnah, they feel, Nehru and the Congress should never have given in to Jinnah's demand for separation. They plainly ignore the Jalal Thesis, that Jinnah never really wanted partition, that he was bluffing, but that Thesis is a later-day development and does not occur in the kind of messy writing that bhakts normally encounter.

Second, Nehru should never have given away Kashmir to the Pakistanis. This lot of bhakts is slightly different and can spout a little military strategy.

The fact is that the state of J&K was put together like a patched quilt over some 110 years or so, little patch by little patch. These forcibly integrated bits were ruled with brutal efficiency by the Dogras; there is no point in going into the horrific details in a summary. While the Dogras and the Sikhs were the only armed troops and only trained men in the state, it was a possible strategy. Once the Second World War broke out, things changed dramatically. In 1947, with West Jammu (now known as the Mirpur area, or Azad Kashmir to Kashmiris), awash with demobilised soldiers mainly from the Sudhan community, a flash point was inevitable. Sure enough, around early August, that region revolted, gladly accepted the arms and ammunitions passed on by Pakistani patriots in the Pakistan Army without the knowledge of their British superiors, and slaughtered the few States Forces troopers left. By the time the Maharaja acceded to India, Mirpur had effectively broken away, and Gilgit-Baltistan was on the way.

The bhakts, and quite a few others, expect that Nehru should have driven out the invaders and the subsequent PA intervention, BEFORE going to the UN. To my mind, this is a non-starter, but to a bhakt, any plank is good enough.




Could this wait till the evening?

Hello Sir ji

I wanted to Know WHERE do you get the ENERGY for debating Kashmir Issues and Topics

For most of us here ; there is nothing to debate ; It is Indian territory
( We only believing in shooting all Anti nationals and foreigners both )

But Sir you have amazing passion and energy for debating the LEGALITIES and the Legalese
of Kashmir