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For India however that has no relevance, since the IR channel is not in production anymore. What counts is, when can they be produced again? Because that decides when the first Rafales with IRST capabilty can be available for India.
i have no clue, sorry for indian Rafales. As Talios pod has Air to Air IRST functions, i am not sure it will be produced for France.
since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs
. you sure? We do not know duty cycle of each radar btw.
 
i have no clue, sorry for indian Rafales.

Actually I feel more sorry for your colleagues in the French forces and their Rafales, because the more India is customizing in an independent manner, the bad for them. That's the result of the Dassault / French way of an independent F3R upgrade, rather than going for a joint French Indian one.
We know that French forces wanted the Gerfault HMS (possibly with some upgrades) and jointly developed and produced in India, it could easily had been part of the ToT/offset package, which then had benefited the French forces. Now it's likely that India will get a Thales HMS (logically the Topsight), which the French forces rejected, so even if India integrates it, it doesn't mean that the French forces will go for it too.
Same is the case for IRST, which the French forces don't wanted anymore because of technical issues and the limited capabilities of the older one, but they still would like an upgraded version (possibly the upgrade Sagem offered) which could had been jointly developed and produced in India again. But here again, diverting production of the older IRST serves the purpose of complying to the RFP requirements, but doesn't add any benefits to French forces and their requirements.
And one can go on with this with India likely to use Litening, which makes French forces dependent on a very costly Talios pod and limited chances to reduce the cost, just as MICA NG upgrades that will make the missile even more costly, instead of taking benefit of India to reduce it's cost, or even from a joint integration of Brimstone missile that the French forces wanted too.

So all in all, IAF might lose out on capabilities of the first squad, but will get what they wanted through the licence production, while French forces get nothing that they wanted out of the Indian customizations. As much as I like the Rafale and I look forward for the benefits of the tender for India, it's sad to see that after so many years, the leading officials of both sides were not able to get more out of the deal for the Forces and the fighter itself!

As Talios pod has Air to Air IRST functions
Actually I wanted to ask you about that before, because the data sheet doesn't mention that. In fact it only talks about visual ID in A2A. Also do you have any info on the range of visual ID with the pod?

. you sure?

For Germany and most likely Spain yes, since they will go for the Cassadian / UMS developed modules. There was even talk that Germany wants to stick to a fixed AESA version to reduce the maintenance costs, but I don't think that still will happen.
If the UK will go for Selex based moduls is a different issue, since they have different plans in mind, but that needs to be seen around 2020.
 
nope about Talios IRST mode, Thales is a very secrecive company. But heard it from hose mouth.
For the HMS my bet would go for Thales ex visionix Scorpion. Again no clue.
 
nope about Talios IRST mode, Thales is a very secrecive company. But heard it from hose mouth.

Anything on the range of visual ID of Talios compared to the FSO-IT? I still don't get why they didn't developed an integrated system (for Rafale and a pod for the Mirage or export customers) instead of the FSO-IT, if Talios offers all the FSO TV channel can as well + A2G targeting. It also doesn't really feature any RCS reductions as advertised earlier.

For the HMS my bet would go for Thales ex visionix Scorpion. Again no clue.

That depends on what advantages it offers over the Topsight that IAF already operates and that Samtel already produces. If you are right about Thales integrating it to Rafale, it still can be a prototype integration only, since there is no requirement from the French forces stated anymore since the last time comparison between Topsight and Gerfaut, just as the F3R reportedly doesn't include and HMS. So the question would the question would be, does it fulfill the requirements of the French or Indian forces to justify the integration and an order?

@halloweene

Wrt the Captor-E modules:

...The modules for the Typhoon radar, originally designed by EADS Cassidian, contain the same gallium arsenide components as the Gripen modules, albeit with different packaging, Morrison said. The Typhoon modules will be dual-sourced from Selex and Airbus Defence & Space...

First Typhoon Flight With AESA Could Open Door to Exports | Defense News | defensenews.com

The E-scan also has a tilt that Paul Smith, capability manager at Eurofighter, says will help reduce the aircraft’s radar return to adversaries...
...The TRMs are being dual-sourced from both the U.K. and Germany.

Smith said the first radars could be retrofitted into aircraft and be on the front line within three years.

Covers Off Eurofighter E-Scan Radar | Farnborough 2014 content from Aviation Week


So Cassidian modules are confirmed, but not sure if they mix them or if the customer decides about one source as mentioned earlier.
 
A very interesting read
originally in french .. google translated



The Rafale in the Indian media
December 5
Pierre Memheld, strategy consultant in international markets, the teacher IE Translators Institute of Interpreters and International Relations


Dassault Aviation has entered into exclusive discussions with the Department of Indian Defence to close the sale of Rafales in January 2012. Since then, negotiations will not continue at step toward reaching a definitive agreement, now announced by the media to March 2015 - regardless of a possible postponement of the decision, that date has already been shifted several times. [1] Indian media closely follow this case because it is a key contract, not only for the French aircraft manufacturer, but also for the Indian defense as a whole.


rafale_inde_200-b59ff.jpg


The Indian government must indeed solve the difficult equation to successfully modernize its military equipment, while developing its defense industry and by mastering its budget. [2] Industrial partnerships signed with some providers can not only transfer know-how and technology but also to establish diplomatic ties in view of the geopolitical challenges India faces. The acquisition of aircraft multirole fighter, diesel submarines and artillery guns is now a necessity.

If the goal of India is partly to streamline its equipment and to develop its economy, its ultimate goal is to become independent of its major suppliers (Russia, USA, Israel, France). In turn, these countries are trying to find outlets for their products and make India a relay diplomacy in the Indian Ocean. But the government of Narendra Modi and his new defense minister Manohar Parrikar [3] have clearly stated their objectifs.Il is to develop the defense industry "natives", public or private, and "contain" China getting closer to countries like Australia, Vietnam and Singapore. Without this directly concerns the Rafale contract, Indian budget constraints explain the postponement or cancellation of several tenders or arms contracts. India finally made competition between its various suppliers to get the best contract terms and "policies".

In such a competitive environment, it is interesting that the Rafale, Dassault or even France, are criticized or attacked in the Indian press at the discretion of the tender hazards "MMRCA" [4], and especially since the beginning of exclusive negotiations.If the Indian press is on the front of the competitors' power struggles of the Rafale, continuing to believe in their chances, other media echo of "difficulties" in concluding this symbolic contract.

For some, the Rafale would be "a big mistake" for the Indian Air Force [5] -then she even conducted multiple studies and tests to confirm this choice-. For others, budgetary constraints and the focus on social reforms by the Modi government could postpone the contract, especially since the cost "has increased from 10 to 20 billion dollars". [6] Finally, relayed by specialized media, the Russian ambassador in Delhi said that "Sukhoi-27 built in China Gusts crush them like mosquitoes" [7].

If we can relate this statement to the current problem of projection and command Mistral, the fact remains that these attempts to influence the media level are an expression of fierce competition between the major suppliers .dropoff window Other arguments, referring to the Rafale operating cost, or difficulty for Dassault partner (Hindustan Aeronautics) to ensure the production of 108 aircraft, also advanced. Finally, the Rafale is "opposite" to devices of "5th generation" as the American F-35, considered more "modern".

These questions are often described as the information obtained by journalists from senior officers or politicians "familiar with the matter." Where official statements of the Department of Defense or the General Staff of the Indian Army Air highlight the constant progress of negotiations, these "leaks" are presented as validating the arguments against the Rafale and including the risk of choosing a foreign manufacturer heavily dependent on this single contract. [8]

It must also be remembered that this contract is under discussion for over a decade. However, during this period, India has experienced several governments "Indian National Congress" (INC) and now a government "Indian People's Party" (BJP). [9] Not to mention their specific political ideas, the two major parties compete with blows of revelations about the implications of each other with a particular industry or foreign power. This internal political opposition could affect the contract for the Rafale.

If negotiations have not been called into question following the return of the BJP to power, one of the party members clearly understood that the contract had been signed during "private conversations" between Sonia Gandhi, president of the INC, and Nicolas Sarkozy, through their family ties in Italy. [10] This evocation of Sonia Gandhi connections recalls that it has already been involved in an arms deal, canceled for suspected corruption.

We can see, from reading some press only that this contract is the center of attention of the Indian and Russian media and the crossroads of Russian and American economic and diplomatic interests. Some articles suggest discrete aspects of the negotiations, others attack frontally the Rafale, Dassault and France evoking far the link between this contract and its credibility as an exporter of arms even as Indian and Russian contexts can not be compared.

As India seeks strategic depth in the eponymous Ocean, it would be useful that France reaffirms its military presence, and its economic interests in this strategic area for many countries. In addition, by offering India the equipment and support they need to reaffirm its position as a regional power, France will only strengthen the link -since much longer than one contract, from the point of view Economic historical.
carre_bleu_grand-26-43759.jpg


(1) Thus, "MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected To Be wrapped up in 3 months," Rajat Pandit, The Times of India, June 3, 2014
(2) "India: military power," Pierre Memheld, Defense Review National No. 774 November 2014
(3) Narendra Modi assured the post of minister of defense, in addition to the prime minister, since his election in May 2014 until November 2014 and the appointment of the former "Chief minister "Goa Manohar Parrikar.
(4) Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft
(5) "Why Rafale is a Big Mistake" Bharat Karnad, The New Indian Express, 14 August 2014
(6) "No Softlanding in sight for $ 20- bn Rafale deal, "Huma Siddiqui, The Financial Express, 26 October 2014
(7) "Why India Needs to rethink the Rafale deal," Rakesh Krishnan Simha, Russia & India Report, 26 October 2014
(8) "MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business, "Huma Siddiqui, the Indian Express, 12 May 2013
(9) Bharatiya Janata Party = Indian People's Party
(10) "The Rafale deal Should Be scrapped and renegotiated" interview Subramanian Swamy, Pranay Sharma Outlook, August 18, 2014


Link:
Le Rafale dans les médias indiens - Affaires Stratégiques

 
ISIS bombing triggers Lossiemouth re-think

UK military action against brutal IS jihadists in Iraq is forcing defence chiefs to rethink their plans for RAF Lossiemouth...

...It has also emerged that plans to upgrade the RAF’s Typhoon jets – which replaced the bulk of the Tornados at Lossiemouth this year – may be accelerated so they can help bomb IS targets in the future.

One expert told the Press and Journal it was only a matter of time before the Typhoons were involved in operations against the terror group...

...Asked if he expected the Typhoon jets to be involved in fighting IS, Mr Ripley said: “The answer to that is yes, it just depends on when...

...The UK’s Tornado GR4s are the only fighters fitted with the highly accurate Brimstone weapon, which can hit moving vehicles.

The MoD is understood to have planned to fit them to the Typhoons by 2019 [correction, Brimstone 2 around 2017, SPEAR 3 around 2019] – the year that Tornados were due to be taken out of service – so they could take over such ground attack duties.

However, senior figures at the department are believed to be investigating ways to speed-up the process so they can be involved in the IS operations if necessary...

...As part of the upgrade, Typhoons from RAF Lossiemouth successfully released two live Paveway IV bombs – which have also been used by Tornado GR4s against IS – at the Cape Wrath range in the Highlands on November 25...

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/moray/422885/isis-bombing-triggers-lossie-re-think/
 
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As I already said, that's the aim according to the RFP requirements, but the current offer is for FSO with IR channel as an option:

ok it's optional

But the link which i have posted earliear did cleary mentioned thales & samtel would codevelop iRST & predicts it's range of detection

which TV chaneel irst in this world would provide range of 80km ???

& what for are they coveloping IRST for!!! if IR channel is optional Huh!!

as IRST is the main sensor rest all subsystems were added to it to improve it's accuracy & to overcome it's limitation
tv imaging laser imaging.JPG


PLus the good thing is it would be benefical for indian aviation industry as those tech might be used in other future planes like
su 30mki & Pak-fa even LCA mark2

irst developed for SU30 & pak-fa.JPG

India Chose Rafale On Cost But Britain Demands Second Chance for Eurofighter | Defense: Aviation International News





Which is wrong on so many levels! IAF is not negotiating anything with anybody, MoD is and they are still talking with the EF partners and the consortium as we have seen several times after the elections, which is even logical since they were never rejected, but selected as L2 and not L1. Rafale was selected as L1 and therefor Dassault is the "prefered partner for the negotiations", but that's it.

Pfft!

MoD is talking with nobody ,it's EF consortium countrie's representatives who are themselves are push selling their planes by baiting us with a revised price tag like what we have seen from germans & even British PM claiming to fill the place if negotiations failed

until & unless the negotiations totally collapses then only we can predict anyhting or else the deal would be signed

& thats it









Which is logically wrong as well, since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs modules but in 50% higher numbers, therefore MUST have higher detection range.
dear sancho plz dont be naive

as export variants are usually downgraded variants basically & nobody knows what is exact T/R count of export varaint in comparision to partner
variants

& performance evaluation is another important thing becoz same thing was said about apg 79 aesa radar with higher T/R count but what was the result
no performance gain in comparision to prevoius radar

i dont buy such claims until they dont do proper evaluation trials

plus most importantly complete ToT with source codes would not happen from EF consortium group unlike french
domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale



P.S for halloweene

pal i dont need to counter anyone's fancy & fictious claims of EF can have similar capabilities (wFoV radar, GaN modules, radar EA capability...) before the Rafale even around 2020.


meanwhile they keep on ignoring

a) Wfov Radar is meaningless when you have miniawacs concept during aerial combat in foreign land with super SU 30 aesa radar & powerful AWACS like phalcon during aerial combat in your homeland as rafale is silent passive killer which kills with it's passive detection capabilty through MICA IR/mica EM from 70km & rafale evades after launching it

only drawback is meteor of rafale is unilink which cant be guided by 3rd party i think india should pay attention to that to get dual link bvraam

& regarding GaN modules & EA capabilty by 2020 on typhoon
yeah yeah if wishes became true in reality then i wish katrina kaif be my wife :lol:


thales have already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of RBE 2 aesa radar for 4year study which means it's for 2018/19 timeframe in mind as they have categorically stated they want to remain ahead of competition from european rivals

Thales awarded with a study contract for the next generation of active array radars | Thales Group


CHEERS

UK downplays conformal fuel tanks for Eurofighter Typhoon


The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) does not consider the installation of conformal fuel tanks to extend the range of the UK's Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as a top priority, according to its commander, Air Commodore Philip Beach.

Writing in the service's official annual review published at the start of December, Air Commodore Beach put bringing air-to-surface capability on line as his top priority because of pressure to exploit it in current operational tasking. "The decision [in October by the UK government] to extend the third Panavia Tornado GR.4 squadron gives an idea of the pressure combat air is under; we're being asked to do a lot."

He said the ability of the Typhoon to "migrate roles" from the Tornado is really important and he said that work to declare the Typhoon operational with the Raytheon Paveway IV guided weapon was "going well". "I am confident we'll declare the capability by the end of the first quarter [2015]," he said.

Looking at more long-term requirements, Air Cdre Beach down played RAF interest in acquiring conformal fuel tanks for the Tranche 3 aircraft that are now being assembled for the service at BAE Systems' Warton site. The Tranche 3 aircraft are 'plumbed' for the tanks that are intended to be fitted on their upper fuselage spine.

"My perspective is that there are some circumstances where we could use conformal fuel tanks and I know some countries use them, but we have a superb air-to-air refuelling fleet and a fighter that operates at high altitude can stay airborne for a long time," he said. "Looking at future programmes and where the balance of investment should lay, I wouldn't put conformal tanks at the top of the list unless we started to see a circumstance where we needed extreme range and endurance, and air-refuelling was at an absolute premium. It's not at the top of the pecking order, but it's a useful option."

UK downplays conformal fuel tanks for Eurofighter Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360

hmm!!
So someone did paid attention to my post
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 691
CHEERS
 
French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles

From 1st to 4th December 2014, pilots of the French Navy Naval Aviation Practical Experimentation Center (centre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale - CEPA) participated in the first evaluation campaign of the Rafale's future F3R standard. This campaign allowed the French Navy to test the fire control of the new MBDA Meteor long range air to air missile in an operational context (while in flight) and to propose improvements to the system.

Thanks to the range of the Meteor missile and the detection range of the new active electronically scanned array (AESA) RBE2 radar, Rafale F3R will have an unmatched interception capability.

Rafale_M_F3R_evaluation_French_Navy.jpg

The Rafale M during the evaluation campaign with the French Navy's CEPA, seen here with 2x Meteor, 2x MICA EM, 2x MICA IR (at the wingtips) and a Scalp cruise missile. Thanks to the reach of the Meteor missile and the detection range of the new active electronically scanned array (AESA) RBE2 radar, Rafale F3R will have an unmatched interception capability. Picture: French Navy

Compared to the latest F3 standard currently in service, the future F3R standard will also allow the Rafale M to carry the new laser designation pod in its air to ground missions and a new refueling pod essential in operations around the CSG (carrier strike group).

The first Rafale M F3R is expected to enter operational service with the French Navy around 2020.

French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles
 
ok it's optional

But the link which i have posted earliear did cleary mentioned thales & samtel would codevelop iRST

Which as I already said, is possible only IF the Indian MoD and IAF goes for the IRST at all, but that's not confirmed so far. All we know is, that FSO will be part of the ToT/offsets of Rafale via Samtel, what will be procured by the IAF at the end needs to be seen. So they can take the FSO-TV only as French forces, pay for the licence production of the already developed IR channel or pay even more for the development of the upgraded / newly developed IR channel. But the current status remains, IRST is not available today and any production or development needs to be started after the final selection of Rafale and it's capabilities, therefor the EF has an advantage here.

as export variants are usually downgraded variants basically & nobody knows what is exact T/R count of export varaint in comparision to partner variants

The number of T/R modules won't change for export customers, what can change are modes or capabilities like EA, but as already stated, we wouldn't be a normal export customer, but a partner in the project, therefor would get more access anyway, so please don't go to such excuses if you can't admit the advantages of the Captor-E. The advantage of RBE2 was, that it is ready and in time of the RFP, not that it's more capable than the Captor-E. And the upgrade potential within the next 5 years is simply better for the EF / Captor-E, than what we see for Rafale / RBE2.

plus most importantly complete ToT with source codes would not happen from EF consortium group unlike french

Not really, EF officials stated that source codes would be diverted too, be it in our MMRCA, or in the S. Korean or Japanese tenders. The industrial advantage that Rafale or the EF offers compared to US fighters are a key in their bids and the partnership in the EF consortium was indeed a big chance:

We are offering India to become a full participant in the program… fully or partially whatever India chooses to do…get involved in future developments. Combat aircraft program never stops. It will operate over decades,” said Peter Maute, Senior Vice-President of Cassidian Air Systems, the security and defense company of the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS).
Quoting an independent study, Maute said choosing Eurofighter Typhoon would create more than 20,000 high skilled jobs in India.

The European consortium hopes that the offer to make India a full industrial participant in the Eurofighter Typhoon program would be a game-changer...

...Asked if Eurofighter is willing to “give away” its unique selling propositions, source codes of radars and design for the “sake of 126 units”. The consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter program.

Eurofighter optimistic to win India’s MMRCA contract | IndiaPost


The real benefit for India from an industrial point of view, would had been, that the EF customer base is far bigger than Rafales, which makes any part that is produced in India and would be part of new or upgraded EF, would be produced in far bigger numbers than it can be for Rafales. If the current government had the chance to shortlist one of the fighters, I'm sure they would prefer the EF bid, simply by the fact that the outcome for the privat Indian industry would be far higher, which makes it more suitable to the Make in India campaign.

French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles

From 1st to 4th December 2014, pilots of the French Navy Naval Aviation Practical Experimentation Center (centre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale - CEPA) participated in the first evaluation campaign of the Rafale's future F3R standard. This campaign allowed the French Navy to test the fire control of the new MBDA Meteor long range air to air missile in an operational context (while in flight) and to propose improvements to the system.

And the same for EF:


Eurofighter Typhoon completes first live firings of Meteor missile
...BAE Systems has completed the first in a series of live firings of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile from Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft at the UK Ministry of Defence's (MoD) Hebrides firing range in the UK.

Supported by MBDA, Selex, Qinetiq and the MoD, the trials demonstrate the effective operation of the Meteor missile with Typhoon, while expanding the jettison envelope by conducting firings at different altitudes and speeds.

The trials also evaluate the interface of Meteor with the Typhoon weapon system for both pre-launch priming and post-launch datalink functions between the missile and the radar...

Eurofighter Typhoon completes first live firings of Meteor missile - Airforce Technology

 
Which as I already said, is possible only IF the Indian MoD and IAF goes for the IRST at all, but that's not confirmed so far. All we know is, that FSO will be part of the ToT/offsets of Rafale via Samtel, what will be procured by the IAF at the end needs to be seen. So they can take the FSO-TV only as French forces, pay for the licence production of the already developed IR channel or pay even more for the development of the upgraded / newly developed IR channel. But the current status remains, IRST is not available today and any production or development needs to be started after the final selection of Rafale and it's capabilities, therefor the EF has an advantage here.

for your kind information
IRST was also one of the requirement of MMRCA deal so it's confirmed to have that on rafale
check J tellis dog fight article about MMRCA requirements you would get it

only thing i am waiting whether new IRST with IR channel would be used on rafale or same old FSO IR channel which is not in production would be used on rafale

most likely new one the link which i posted did prove that









The number of T/R modules won't change for export customers, what can change are modes or capabilities like EA,
thats your over optimistic claim not the fact

Export varaint are usually downgraded variants

J.L is not a fool to mention that Radar1 which is for export ,it's detection range would not be major enhancement from captor M

Radar 1+ or 2 which is for partner states would have serious enhancement in detection range

any normal guy with slight knowledge about radar should understand this may be reffering to difference in amount of T/R modules or quality of T/R modules (power output) used in export or partner states radar

but as already stated, we wouldn't be a normal export customer, but a partner in the project, therefor would get more access anyway, so please don't go to such excuses if you can't admit the advantages of the Captor-E. The advantage of RBE2 was, that it is ready and in time of the RFP, not that it's more capable than the Captor-E

.

i am not giving any cheap excuses at all & why should I???
it's a fact theortically CAPTOR E would have much greater detection range than RBE 2 aesa radar but would be confirmed after proper evalutions

but for INDIA they gonna have to develop their own radar for fulfilling it's own requiremnet which you dont understand that it would delay the aesa radar induction into typhoon further for IAF

plus we have to pay extra in R/D on aesa radar of captor e which is for IAF's typhoon as we going to be partner so we have to be a partner in bearing the expenses of R/D of captor E radar

it goes both ways



BUT whats the big deal for INDIA ???
as for what are we upgrading SU 30 mki aesa radar for !!!
its detection range would be equally or even higher than typhoon captor E

so rather a passive killer RAFALE with highly capable EW suite & long range AIR to ground capabilities with customized Russian/indian/isreali weapons can be better option for IAF

rafale radar meets the basic requirement even exceed that IAF requirement of aesa radar detection range






And the upgrade potential within the next 5 years is simply better for the EF / Captor-E, than what we see for Rafale / RBE2.
GEEZ

Time & again you always swing back to the same old fantasy stuff about upgrades for Captor E meanwhile ignoring that within next 5years they can only induct basic radar 2 captor e aesa radar forget about upgrades as it's for 2020+ or it can be even later than that

beleive it or not funds is the crunch issue at the moment for consortium group if they manage to induct the basic captor E aesa radar also by 2018-19 that would be also a great thing forget about upgrades

Meanwhile you keep on ignoring rafale thales already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa study
so it does makes sense that they might field EA/ESM version of RBE 2 aesa radar on rafale F3R by 2020
which typhoon cant


























Not really, EF officials stated that source codes would be diverted too, be it in our MMRCA, or in the S. Korean or Japanese tenders. The industrial advantage that Rafale or the EF offers compared to US fighters are a key in their bids and the partnership in the EF consortium was indeed a big chance:



Eurofighter optimistic to win India’s MMRCA contract | IndiaPost
Easiear said than done

that is for partner basically if we become also ,but for that we have spend $$$ from own pocket in R/D for Captor E which meets our IAF reuirements

& yet still have to be dependent on respective EF consortium government approval .& their nature of relationship with us eyeing the geo political scenarios every time







The real benefit for India from an industrial point of view, would had been, that the EF customer base is far bigger than Rafales, which makes any part that is produced in India and would be part of new or upgraded EF, would be produced in far bigger numbers than it can be for Rafales. If the current government had the chance to shortlist one of the fighters, I'm sure they would prefer the EF bid, simply by the fact that the outcome for the privat Indian industry would be far higher, which makes it more suitable to the Make in India campaign.

another Subramanian Swamy in the making:sarcastic:


GOOD LUCK on that



CHEERS
 
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for your kind information
IRST was also one of the requirement of MMRCA

You still don't get it. IAF sets the requirement of IRST, Dassault replies with (now) diverting ToT and the production of the IRST to India, but that adds additional costs to start a new production line and even more for a newly developed IRST. The customer then has to decide, if they still need IRST with additional costs, if they want to spend even more for the development, or if they can compromise as French forces, with the advantages the TV channel offers and partially MICA seekers. So only because it was part of the RFP, doesn't mean that it's available now, nor that we have to take it at the end, if the cost is too high. That's what the FSO is the prime offer, with the IRST channel as an option to fulfill the initial requirements, what comes out at the end will be decided now at the price negotiations.

thats your over optimistic claim not the fact

Or a simple logical based on what the vendors officially states in their advertisements! Btw, if you apply your logic, we must get a lower number of T/R modules in the RBE 2 AESA than French forces too, which then puts the performance of the AESA far lower, but as Thales and Dassault stated, it has around 1000 T/R modules and that's the benchmark that a customer will get as well, just as Captor-E is given with around 1500 T/R modules. Don't deny the obvious only because you don't like it!
In terms of radar the Rafale was always meant to be behind, but that's not a big issue, since the priority was given to the passive detection capabilities anyway, but with the lack of proper IRST capabilities that will be reduced too.

Radar 1+ or 2 which is for partner states would have serious enhancement in detection range

Radar 1+ is most likely the fully developed export version, while Radar 1 was the early version, that was meant to have A2A modes only (a similar split of the same version as T3A and B, or P2E-A and B). But since no export customer was ready to fund it, the EF partners now directly go to radar 1+ for exports and radar 2 for them, which reportedly is 80% similar to radar 1+.

but for INDIA they gonna have to develop their own radar

Which is wrong, there is and never was an own radar development for India. They only could offer a radar with A2A modes according to the original timeline of the RFP. The radar they now have funded, is meant to be ready around 2017 (fits the current time line) and fully multi mode capable, except for the advanced modes that are limited to partners only, since their versions will be developed only for the retrofit around 2019.

plus we have to pay extra in R/D on aesa radar of captor e which is for IAF's typhoon as we going to be partner so we have to be a partner in bearing the expenses of R/D of captor E radar

And gain IP rights in return, but I doubt that it's that much of a cost issue when you keep in mind that the costs are shared between India and 4 partners, while we now have to fund Litening integration, IRST production line and HMS for Rafale alone. That's even why I don't understand why the French went alone with the F3R, since joint development also would had meant joint share of costs. But it is now as it is and we have to add costs for Rafale as mentioned too.

BUT whats the big deal for INDIA ???

The once that you claim form Rafale, just that they will be available much later only.
Far higher field of view and detection range, which makes it more suitable in mini AWACS roles than Rafale F3+ or F3R, therefor an equal if not superior alternative to the MKI in these roles. Most likely EA capability of the AESA, far earlier than Rafale can have it, which then would make it superior choice in the deepstrike and SEAD roles against China (simple example, MKI with Brahmos around covered by Rafale and SPECTRA jammers, or by EF with Captor-E and EA capabilities, what would be preferable?).

beleive it or not funds is the crunch issue at the moment for consortium group


Which again is just a wrong conclusion! The EF "consortium" is developing and pre-funding AESA for years and even in seperated programs. What was lacking was the government funding (EF "partners") for the final radar and that step now finally was taken, which makes the rest not a big deal anymore. The repositioner is developed, basically even for the Gripen NG, where Selex is benefitting too, just as Cassidan is from the joint development with Thales on AESA modules. So they don't start from scratch as you might think, in fact the development and production of the radar 1+ might be easier than than the development of radar 2, where the partners (especially Germany or Spain) have to agree on joint funding again, while they might be ok with the less advanced radar 1+, which leaves UK either alone or with the Italians to push for radar 2.

Meanwhile you keep on ignoring rafale thales already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa study


Which as already mentioned is aimed on the MLU upgrades and only because you don't like the fact that the EF might have that capability earlier, doesn't change the fact that the F3R is not aimed to have EA capability, nor GaN, side arrays, engine upgrades, weapon pods and other things that are studied now. When they will be available, they surely will add Rafales capabilities, but that's a decade away and not important for the MMRCA in short or mid term.
 
Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up



So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, sticking points in negotiations between Dassault Aviation and HAL remain the chief reason why a draft contract hasn't reached finality. There have been a few reports that point to general difficulties in negotiations between HAL and Dassault on liability for the 108 aircraft that the former will license build in Bangalore. What you probably haven't heard about are the specific stumbling blocks. There are basically three:

  1. Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India',
  2. The ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia.
  3. Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report. Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities.
Done and dusted clauses of the exhaustive contract cover pretty much all other aspects. The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. With an irritated HAL putting its foot down and asserting itself as the principal production partner, the relationship between the two has been, well, uncertain at best. Both sides will be looking to new leadership at the MoD to get things moving.

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up
 
an excellent article from my pal BRUNO

Burst: revolution in evolution

In recent weeks, it seems that the French combat aircraft is again entered the heart of the French media after years of incessant bashing. Many renowned newspapers and journals to promote the merits of our national hunter, while the signing of a contract has certainly never been so close.
While it is true that the Rafale has strengths that make it an aircraft capable and accomplished, and that appears above the lot in some areas, it is one that is never mentioned, but nevertheless deserves attention: its scalability.
The Rafale was designed as an airplane weapon system with an open architecture, can be improved indefinitely-or almost. And here lies the true strength that only time will be able to reveal to many observers and critics of the program, they are not limited to appearances of an airplane that flew for the first time there is more to this 20 years.



Scalability of modern fighter aircraft

One of the best examples we offer history in terms of evolution of a fighter is certainly the F-16. The little fighter day it was in the late 70s, he gradually shifted to the aircraft status to everything, the workhorse of many Western armies, with thanks to its latest standards (Block60 / 61 including UAE) Capacity far from being matched by many other planes, even more recent.
But if the cell remains the same, within the plane, all or almost changed. All electronic equipment component weapon system (radar, computers, jammers, radar warning receiver, IFF, etc.) have been replaced. If the manufacturer of the aircraft was the economy of the design of a new cell, engines, flight controls and all tests in the wind tunnel and flight requires that we have much to do every time a system of new weapon. If the plane has indeed evolved, it would be better to speak of modernization rather than evolution.
So new that 40 years later, new aircraft still out of his production line. In 1975, who could have imagined that? And even today, it remains a feat. A fact which is not unique and is now entering history. The life of a fighter as a whole has increased exponentially.For it is not permitted by the performance for airframe / powerplant that has become a key factor in the aircraft's performance in combat, but rather its weapon system.

Dassault Aviation: Technique small steps

On this basis, it would be tempting to imagine that the designers of the Rafale focused philosophy of Marcel Dassault, the "small steps" technique on the design of the weapon system to equip the aircraft.
The technique of "small steps" is very simple to understand. The company founder wanted to take the least amount of risk in the design of an airplane. Thus, when a new aircraft was designed, it was still using an existing engine. While progress had been made in aerodynamics, it would not change the wings while keeping the same cell. And this is where the history of the series of mysteries to the Mirage. Even the design of the technology demonstrator Rafale does not start from scratch, since it is largely based on the achievements of the late Super Mirage 4000 program.

Bring this philosophy on a weapon system is not so simple. Especially with the advent of computers, all systems overlap between them. The slightest change can affect all systems, processes, testing and validation are complex, lengthy and extremely rigorous.
The computer constantly evolving, both in terms of hardware architecture that computer languages allow to make feasible the development of an entire system for 30 or 40 years ahead is a challenge.

Designers of Rafale systems will therefore be based on two concepts well established in the field of IT, but rarely exploited in aviation, and certainly never at this scale: modularity, and virtualization.


A modular hardware architecture

The basic principle of modularity, its very definition, is to move or add items as needed. So we want to design a system that can evolve over time, adding "modules" for additional power when it will prove necessary. The Rafale will have a central computer called UPDTs (Modular Data Processing Unit) or EMTI French (Modular Equipment
Information Processing). Each UPDTs is physically composed of a backplane with 18 slots that can accommodate as many modules.




In detail:
Each module is composed of a motherboard, a processor (CPU) and memory.
When switching to the fourth tranche of production, the new Rafale were delivered with more powerful modules to support the workload ADDITION system provided by the various hardware upgrades, and also to face the greatest data generated in the data fusion system by an AESA radar able to see further and do more things at the same time.
In 2003, and for the production of the Rafale F2 standard, each module EMTI Rafale was composed of a PowerPC 740 running at 200MHz, and accompanied by 64MB of memory. In 2006, the modules now have an embedded Power PC 750 clocked at 733Mhz with 256MB of memory.
Regarding the current production standard, at most we know as processors, always based on the Power architecture, exceeded the Giga hertz and became multicore.

The computing capacity depending on the hardware architecture embedded in the Rafale are scalable and virtually limitless. If this is the bottleneck that could become the width of the Bus UPDTs, a problem that is not without solutions.

And that's not all. For not only the modules are replaceable EMTI more powerful, but Dassault Aviation has planned wide as a second location is available to add a second Rack EMTI ...


Virtualization systems.

Returning to the example of the modernization of the F-16, every new standard included the arrival of new materials, and new software should always be created to use them.
To oversimplify, each software is created and depends on the hardware it was designed to work. How to make sure as the Rafale software can continue to evolve in the coming decades, without having to rewrite everything should the equipment change? Simple answer: virtualization!

Virtualization allows a hardware abstraction. The software works in an environment that will remain the same throughout his life, and only the software part (hypervisor) for the link between the hardware and the environment will be adapted.

During the installation of the first EMTI modules based on a new generation of processor in 2006, the engineers booted and ... everything worked the first time! If further tests are carried out to ensure the regression of the aircraft systems, no rewriting software code to which the Rafale weapons system was required.

Update burst

The software development is not stopped for a fighter. With the permanent addition of new weapons, equipment, or to meet the new threats, the battle system endlessly evolving. Software upgrades are delivered as standard. There are the main standard F1 / F2 / F3, each divided into sub-standards. Currently, the service standard is the F3.3 '(premium).
The update of a Rafale is made just hours via connecting a computer to the aircraft. It follows a verification of systems and the aircraft is operational again!
When the F3R standard should be operational in 2018, all aircraft of the Air Force and the Navy will then put the latest standard in the same way, and all will be able to play with the new nacelle Thales laser designation, or pull the new Meteor very long range missiles.

The "Plug & Play" hardware

The way a computer, a Rafale automatically recognizes the hardware associated with it. This is now part of everyday life in IT.You do not ask yourself, when you plug a USB drive into your computer, whether to install or not ... And yet it was not so long ago, the addition of any equipment or device required a certain amount of patience to "train" the computer to use the new device.

The material of the Rafale has also evolved. As we have seen above, the modules of the recently delivered EMTI are more powerful than those installed in older aircraft. Thus, it is possible to interchange modules between newer and some older planes so that the average power calculation is equivalent in all planes in the park. In this way, the air force updates all these more or less homogeneous planes without the need to purchase new modules. Thank you Plug & Play; but it goes much further than that.


The C137 was the first burst out of the assembly line in Merignac with the new radar RBE2 active antenna, in October 2012. But it does not benefit long because the EASA RBE2 will be dismantled and reassembled in a two-seater within hours of delivery, in order to conduct flight tests with additional crew member. Thank you Plug & Play!


The planes of the fourth tranche of production are delivered from the end of 2013. They embark new "peripheral" significantly increasing the aircraft combat capabilities, such as DDM-NG or AESA Radar RBE2 equipped an active antenna. The equipment is expensive, and the current state of the Air Force Finance certainly does not allow to buy to put all the Rafale to date. But to maximize the operational level of the park, and when an aircraft of the fourth tranche is unavailable due to maintenance, for example, it is quite possible to dismantle the new radar, and then mount it on one of the first aircraft delivered 2005. Since the software it is updated, it will have no problem to recognize and exploit the full potential of his new device. Duration of operation, less than three hours!


Summary and conclusion:

With EMTI, virtualization and management devices, the Rafale was designed as a platform with strong potential for development.Although all had to be modernized deeply to acquire modern skills, none for the moment can claim to offer such a high level of integration, enabling it to evolve as easily and thus at lower cost. To see this, just look at the competition.

Saab has launched a major program to modernize its Gripen. Apart from the change in structure that will bring a more powerful engine and more fuel, the majority of electronic equipment are different. Besides the fact that development efforts are important, and not speaking of structural change, the old planes do not benefit from the improvements, except to go through the "factory" box.

Closer to the Rafale, Eurofighter we, which was designed with a more traditional methodology. Thus, aircraft production units 1, 2 and 3 each have standard hardware and software of their own (not to mention the plethora of sub-standards). The fleet is not homogeneous, and this leads to a loss of operational efficiency on the one hand, a reduction in the useful life of the first on the other aircraft, but also became a logistical puzzle partly explains the high cost of maintenance in operational conditions of the aircraft. See article:
There is also the case of the F-35 that develops two software standards with the same capabilities, but on different hardware. The Block 2F is indeed equivalent to the F-35B 3I block of the F-35A, but the two planes do not have the same hardware ...

With a cell torque / engine with good performance and a weapon system able to evolve without limit, the Rafale offers its users a scalable weapon system so that the prospect of replacing the aircraft became secondary ... The Rafale is called to succeed himself for many years.

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SPECTRA is just as jammer ? Rafale AESA will not have EA capabilities?

Spectra is an EWS that includes jammers, which also will be upgraded in the F3R upgrade. The RBE 2 radar won't have jamming capability in the short or mid term. That is aimed at the MLU around 2025 and most likely in combination with conformal arrays to provide a wide field of view.

Next live trial of EF upgrades:

FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS

The Italian aerospace and defence company Alenia Aermacchi, working closely with its Eurofighter partners, has successfully conducted the first release of a Storm Shadow missile from a Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as part of its missile integration programme.

The trials took place in November and saw the missile being released from the aircraft and tracked by radar up to impact.

Eurofighter Typhoon | FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS

If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.
 
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