Four killed, others hurt in terror attack at Jerusalem synagogue

[Solomon2]

The truth is never as one-sided as what you believe it to be. So, if anything, you are proving to me that it is not my history that is 'flawed', it is yours.

I suggest you do your own research, delving into old newspaper archives and even original sources if you can.

So now advocating freedom and independence for people is suddenly 'absurd and unjust', while advocating the oppression of a few million people is perfectly fine. Pathetic.

It's pretty bad that you advocate oppressing the Jews of the middle east while excusing their tormenters.

There you go. You answered your own argument. They were never granted any lands by the Palestinians - only by colonial empires. Every other nation got a chance at freedom from these empires. So why not Palestine? Why is Palestine still bound by the decisions made by colonial empires of the past? Why does it not have the right to make its own decisions?

Good question. The close of WWI saw the end of three empires: Russian, Ottoman, and Austro-Hungarian. It was realized that the reign of any one nationality over others led inevitably to empires that craved war. The solution was to split up the empires into nation-states. Fifteen Arab villages even sent a letter to the Paris Peace Conference denying their own separate identity as Palestinians. Palestine was declared the Jewish National Home with Jews encouraged to "closely settle" the land by fair purchase and grant. The land wasn't for Jewish immigrants to take but the Arabs to sell - and many did, demanding and getting prices forty times that demanded of Arabs (reference: Will Durant).

'International Law'? International Law that gives 60% of the land to 20% of the Population?

The original Palestine Mandate incorported Jordan, too. That hunk - over 70% - was hacked off and given to the Hashemites and in contravention to international law the Jewish families there were expelled.

Why is it that for hypocrites like you, International Law is only applicable to Palestinians? Israel has violated countless UN resolutions and countless parts of this sacred International law you speak of.

U.N. resolutions come in different "flavors". Not many have the force of law. Even some Security Council Resolutions don't have the force of law because they fall outside the SC's remit. The purpose of passing such Resolutions is precisely to confuse people like you into thinking their leaders stand for justice rather than hypocrisy. You're going to have to do your homework here to climb out of the stew your leaders cooked up for you.

Is my name 'Pakistan'? Am I an elected representative of the Pakistani state or responsible for Pakistan's policies and politics in any way? Is Pakistan responsible or involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Then why does my nationality matter in this? You are dragging in my nationality here, it has nothing to do with this argument so refrain from doing it.

It's your tree of values that matters. Legitimizing religious terror - which is what you're doing, by failing to criminalize evil deeds and putting the onus on Jews instead - means you've pretty much eliminated the idea of civil freedoms. Jews aren't very convenient targets in Pakistan any more - but Pakistan has many minorities who remain, or other people who can be declared a minority by extremists, and thus be subject to religious violence.

So when you come down to it the basic question is whether you're loyal to the peoples of Pakistan or to the idea that religious violence should be sanctioned against the weak.

Not all Palestinian Arabs seek to murder Jews.

Accepted.

Criminalizing an entire race is called racism.

That's what you're doing to Israel's Jews, isn't it? The people killed never served in the Army, didn't believe that Jews should visit the Temple Mount, and probably were the sort I saw some decades ago who hung posters of Jordan's King Hussein on the walls of their homes and shops.

They are killed for being born in the wrong place (i.e Palestine). That's about just as bad.

Now you're just making wild claims and easy equivocations.

Yeah right. Everyone else has to 'change' and 'admit' except you. Cut that self righteous, 'holier than thou' crap. I'm not buying it.

I've already explained that I can't rise to the level of courage I'm asking of you. You have the opportunity to achieve a higher level of righteousness than I ever will, I think.

I don't either. It won't be 'bravery' to support an apartheid regime, it'd be stupidity. Get that delusion out of your mind.

Don't you see? Apartheid exists because the intolerant - like the Arabs who attacked this synagogue - demand others not live in their midst. It's not like Jewish communities continue to exist in Arab or Pakistani lands - they've all been driven out.

It's not fair when a couple of million people lose their homes because of it.

You don't seem to tell yourself or your fellow Muslims that it's "not fair" for a couple of million Jews to lose their homes to violent bigotry but it's supposed to be unfair when a couple of million people BUY their own homes? What do you have to say to the Arabs of Galilee who purchased their homes and farms from Jews who chose to move to the cities - that they should have remained in their ancestral homes? Or to the teeming millions in Karachi from India or Wazirstan - that they should depart and leave the city to Sindhis?

The course you and your fellow Pakistanis need to take to save your country from further fission couldn't be more clear, could it? You have to rearrange your set of values, to honor truth and human rights above bigotry. That this conflicts with Islamist extremism and the desire of many Arabs to establish sole dominion over the middle east (and colonization rights elsewhere) I don't doubt. But if you don't make that change, what hope remains for you - and for Pakistan?

 

[TankMan]

I suggest you do your own research, delving into old newspaper archives and even original sources if you can.

That's a good suggestion, I'll definitely do that when I get the time.

you advocate oppressing the Jews

I don't. Being in favor of Palestine does not mean oppressing Jews. You are jumping to false conclusions.

excusing their tormenters.

The Palestinians are their 'tormenters'? That's absurd. Hamas? I condemn their terrorism all the time. If that's 'excusing' for you, consider facing the truth.

Fifteen Arab villages even sent a letter to the Paris Peace Conference denying their own separate identity as Palestinians.

Fifteen out of a few hundred doesn't really mean much.

The land wasn't for Jewish immigrants to take but the Arabs to sell

The Arabs didn't want to give up their entire nation. I know of many Muslims who have purchased land in the US. What would your opinion be if they just decided to form their own state on it? It doesn't work that way.
By the way, the fact that Arabs had no problems selling their land to Jews shows that they weren't some race of evil murderers like you usually portray them. The politics that ensued was politics and undoubtedly the Jews had plenty of stakes in that.

U.N. resolutions come in different "flavors". Not many have the force of law. Even some Security Council Resolutions don't have the force of law because they fall outside the SC's remit. The purpose of passing such Resolutions is precisely to confuse people like you into thinking their leaders stand for justice rather than hypocrisy. You're going to have to do your homework here to climb out of the stew your leaders cooked up for you.

Then what makes the Law that you are using to justify Israel's actions so good? If UN resolutions against Israel have no value, why do the ones in favor have any value?

people like you

There you go, more of your sick superiority mentality, as if everyone else is stupid but you.

Legitimizing religious terror - which is what you're doing

No, I am not.

by failing to criminalize evil deeds

I have criminalized plenty of evil deeds. I refuse to criminalize an entire race.

This bull about making me feel guilty isn't working.

That's what you're doing to Israel's Jews

No, I am not. I condemn their politics doesn't mean I am criminalizing their race.

You don't seem to tell yourself or your fellow Muslims that it's "not fair" for a couple of million Jews to lose their homes to violent bigotry but it's supposed to be unfair when a couple of million people BUY their own homes?

I do tell, a lot. Whether you see it or not is another matter.

You have to rearrange your set of values, to honor truth and human rights above bigotry.

This part I agree with - we need to start following the values of Islam more, rather than abusing it for politics.

That this conflicts with Islamist extremism and the desire of many Arabs to establish sole dominion over the middle east (and colonization rights elsewhere) I don't doubt. But if you don't make that change, what hope remains for you - and for Pakistan?

'Islamist extremism' is a very loose term. Most terrorists have their own political goals. They try to appear as though they follow some strict ideology but in reality they don't - for them, their rules are very flexible. They do what gives them what they want, and different groups have different goals.

the desire of many Arabs to establish sole dominion over the middle east (and colonization rights elsewhere)

More of your absurd ideas. Many arabs? What you mean like some of the fat rich sheikhs or are you talking about those Palestinian kids playing football on a beach?

You really need to go easy on the propaganda-brainwash tactics and maybe then someone will actually take you seriously. Otherwise, when you mix your points with antagonizing garbage, it's in from one ear and out from the other.
If you don't want to do that, don't bother replying because I won't.

 

[Steakhouse]

Solomon spread propaganda

 

[Irfan Baloch]

View attachment 154335 Melanie Phillips
23 hours ago ·
In the face of unspeakable depravity, the British respond with impeccable even-handedness. After pious expressions of horror over the carnage in Jerusalem this morning, where four rabbis were slaughtered during morning prayers and several others badly injured by Arabs screaming “Allahu akhbar”, Britain’s Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond and his Labour shadow Douglas Alexander called on “both sides” to “de-escalate” tensions.

“Both sides”, eh. How exactly do those who are being targeted for mass murder in a never-ending terror war “de-escalate”? The inescapable suggestion is that the Israelis have escalated these tensions in an equivalent manner to the Arabs.

This morning’s BBC reports of the atrocity went one stage further, blaming it on the “old dispute” over who gets to pray on Temple Mount and the recent tensions arising from the renewed Jewish campaign to do so. So the slaughter of Jews was all the Jews’ fault.

This was a grotesque, indeed obscene distortion. There was never the slightest chance of this forlorn campaign to allow Jews to pray on Temple Mount getting anywhere with the Israeli government. Israel didn’t escalate anything at all. On the contrary, the violence was initiated by the Arabs as they lit the petrol trail of lies and incitement.

This process was kicked off by Mahmoud Abbas when, at the UN a couple of months ago, he promulgated the demonstrable and ludicrous falsehood that Israel was committing genocide against the Palestinians. Last month, he fanned the flames of conflagration by claiming entirely falsely that Jewish “settlers” were planning to desecrate the al Aqsa mosque, and calling for them to be prevented.

Falsely he claimed that there were “many attacks on al Aqsa repulsed by religious leaders”. But there were no such Israeli attacks. Instead, Arabs lured the Israeli police into the complex by throwing rocks and shooting fireworks towards police officers stationed near the entrance to the Temple Mount area from the Western Wall plaza. The police chased the rioters who ran inside al Aqsa, which had been turned into an ammunition store. From there, pitched battles were fought with Israeli police, firing small rockets at them and hurling stones and other projectiles.

But the BBC didn’t mention any of this today. Instead, it blamed the victims and thus excused their attackers.

What the BBC has never told its audience – and nor have the rest of the media ever reported – is the even more explicit incitement to violence by Abbas’s henchmen. In a chilling precursor to today’s slaughter, an official of Abbas's Fatah said on PA TV on November 7: “Jerusalem needs blood to purify itself of Jews”. On November 14, an official of the PA religious affairs ministry said Jerusalem needed “sacrifices and blood”.

Moreover, in an interview on November 5, Abbas's adviser Mahmoud al Habbash not only stated that the PA leadership supported the riots and terror attacks but confirmed that Abbas and the PA were “inciting the people in Jerusalem to perform ribat’.

PA supports terror in Jerusalem - PMW Bulletins

“Ribat” is a very significant term in this context, since it signifies a religious duty to defend or reconquer land defined as Islamic. In other words, Abbas and his PA are inciting Islamic holy war in Jerusalem.

Quite how the Israel Shin Bet intelligence chief Yuval Cohen can reportedly claim that Abbas doesn’t mean to incite violence is therefore beyond comprehension.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/security-chief-says-palestinian-leaders-not-stoking-violence/

Maybe the explanation is that Cohen, who a few days ago was involved in an unedifying verbal brawl with Israel’s defence minister “Boogie” Ya’alon, is attempting to deflect the blame for a murderous terror campaign that has been allowed to escalate for weeks on his watch, culminating in today’s atrocity.

More to the point, this psychotic incitement against Jews pours out of the “moderate” PA as well as Hamas day after day. PA officials and PA TV repeatedly call Jews a “disease’, “worse than smallpox”, claim that Jews living in Jerusalem are a “cancer”; and so on and sickeningly on.

Go to the Palestinian Media Watch website and scroll down through the countless examples of dehumanisation and demonization of Jews and Israelis. You’ll see that these are Nazi-style, diabolical images and paranoid incitement.

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=760

Some of these images follow below, depicting the Jew as a scorpion, the Jew as a global disease, the Jew eating the Dome of the Rock, the Jew harming the weak Arab world, the Jew as the mass murderer of Gazans –and, published on Fatah’s Facebook page on October 19, a cartoon depicting the Israelis as wolves surrounding al Aqsa with the accompanying text demanding: “Arabs, the wolves surround your al Aqsa! What are you going to do about it?”

None of this is reported by the western media, which itself incites against Israel through its relentless selective, distorted or false reporting, double standards and blaming the victim.

None of it is acknowledged by the EU, which funds the people purveying this racist incitement.

None of it is acknowledged by those 274 British MPS who voted to recognise “Palestine”. The agenda those British MPs are in fact supporting is the one represented by these diabolical images and deranged ravings.

Today’s atrocity has stripped away the fantasy to which these and so many others in the west subscribe, that the Middle East conflict is about the division of land and can thus be resolved through negotiation. It is not, and cannot. Abbas (let alone Hamas) is calling for a holy war. It was not without the most horrific significance that one of today’s victims at the Jerusalem synagogue where he was praying reportedly had his arm hacked off with a meat cleaver – an arm still wrapped in his phylacteries.

It is Tzipi Livni, of all people, who put her finger on it earlier today when she said she had long feared this was becoming a religious war – “and a religious war can’t be solved”.

Indeed. It’s a question instead of who wins this war: them or us; barbarism or civilisation; a death cult or those who love life. And at present, much of the western political, media and intellectual classes are on the wrong side.

***

@Irfan Baloch, I'm asking you for something very very difficult: to be brave and stand for the Jews. Don't tell me it isn't a matter of bravery. I know the flash in Pakistani eyes when I bring this up, I know what it is. Since anti-Zionists do this to their friends there isn't much reason they won't do this to you.

I suppose you might prefer to wait until the wolf is at the door; then you can invoke the last courage, that of desperation. Regardless of your choice, this idea that the Jews of Israel are somehow responsible for oppression - rather than the Muslims and Arabs who rejected the lawful and humane return of Jews to Zion - is a form of denial that weakens you in the battle against evil. You can do better.

these victims didnt deserve this i wont condone such violence . no matter what faith or nationality
you summed us up right we are more antisemitic than arabs are
Please do allow me to have same sentiments for those who are blown to bits by israeli f16s as a collateral

my feelings are from humanity point of view now
Out of respect for dead i would avoid further politics where we will disagree

 

[Steakhouse]

What the different between Jews chop to dead and Palestinian bombed to dead? Not much different to many unbiased observer.

 

[Norwegian]

bad move . now the refugees will suffer

Who? Jewish refugees? They do not EXIST; thanks to ISRAEL! @500 @Natan @LeveragedBuyout

Because they were already living there. Israel captured these lands and formed there illegtimate state.

So? Arabs also captured these lands and replaced its former majority Christian Greek-Orthodox population since 637 CE:
Siege of Jerusalem (637) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamofascists believe when they conquer other non-Muslim people and their land, they are divinely right, but when non-Muslims do the same with Muslims and their lands, they are wrong? What kind of twisted illogical rubbish is that?

That's a demographic shift, no matter how you dress it up.

SO you agree there was NO ethnic cleansing but natural demographic shift? THANKS!!!

A hypothetical example would be if the Zionists had invaded Norway, kicked out most non-Jews, and demanded that any non-Jews who are allowed to remain can only do so if they accept the legal supremacy of Jewishness in state affairs.

That's not what happened during and after Nakba. All Palestinian Arabs who remained became Israeli Citizens in 1966! How come 20 % of all Israelis are still Arab?

I have sympathy for the rabbis who were killed, but the blame for the ongoing carnage on both sides lies with the original Zionist colonialists.

LOL! So you blame establishment of Pakistan for the current suffering of Kashmiri Muslims?

Why attack a Synagogue?

Because these praying houses are naturally not guarded like military buildings, so its obvious why Islamofascist terrorists would attack exactly there!!!

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

@Norwegian It seems that much of this conflict is the result of an arbitrarily drawn line in time; before year X, everything is legitimate, and after that year, all changes that occur are illegitimate. Unfortunately, history moves on, and does not obey such artificial demarcations. The parties must deal with the realities of today, instead of trading recriminations about the past. It's unclear they're ready for that, and until they are, no amount of diplomatic maneuvering will change the underlying grievances.

 

[Developereo]

SO you agree there was NO ethnic cleansing but natural demographic shift? THANKS!!!

Demographic shift is the result
Ethnic cleansing was the process to achieve that result.

That's not what happened during and after Nakba. All Palestinian Arabs who remained became Israeli Citizens in 1966!

Even Israeli historians acknowledge that Zionist policy was to use terrorism to expel most of the Arabs.

How come 20 % of all Israelis are still Arab?

You still seem to have trouble grasping primary school arithmetic.
Arabs were 96% of the population before the Zionist campaign of ethnic cleansing. They are now 20%.

LOL! So you blame establishment of Pakistan for the current suffering of Kashmiri Muslims?

Kashmiri Muslims are locals, not colonial invaders.

Being flippant and making idiotic remarks may give you accolades from some, but they only make you look ignorant and desperate.

 

[500]

Demographic shift is the result
Ethnic cleansing was the process to achieve that result.

Demographic shift in Palestine happened in same way as demographic shift in Singapore. In both cases the local population only grew benefited.

Even Israeli historians acknowledge that Zionist policy was to use terrorism to expel most of the Arabs.

Nonsense, even Arabs admit that their war and propaganda caused the refugees. Israel could easily expel all the Arabs in 1948.

You still seem to have trouble grasping primary school arithmetic.
Arabs were 96% of the population before the Zionist campaign of ethnic cleansing. They are now 20%.

Arabs were 400 K, now 5.5 million.

 

[Norwegian]

Demographic shift is the result
Ethnic cleansing was the process to achieve that result.

What ethnic cleansing? If you wanna see real ethnic cleansing, check out Holocaust, Holodomor, Circassian genocide, Armenian genocide, Expulsion of Jews from Arab lands post 1948, Expulsion of non-Muslims from Pakistan post 1947 etc etc.

Even Israeli historians acknowledge that Zionist policy was to use terrorism to expel most of the Arabs.

Zionist terrorism only started post 1947 when Arab states categorically refused any accommodation of a Jewish State to be established per right of self-determination of Palestinian Jews and Zionist leaders were not even opposed to Palestinian Arabs right to establish their own state at the same place per UN partition plan. Furthermore, Arab states openly declared war on Israel when its declaration of independence was announced. Zionist terrorism was a natural response to combined terror approaching fast by 5 Arab states.

You still seem to have trouble grasping primary school arithmetic.
Arabs were 96% of the population before the Zionist campaign of ethnic cleansing. They are now 20%.

LOL. Its not because of ethnic cleansing but demographic shift. If you combine population of Palestinian Arabs in Israel, West Bank, Golan and Gaza, you get exactly same number or more as Jews in total in Israel!

Kashmiri Muslims are locals, not colonial invaders.

Palestinian Jews are local too. Ever heard of the term Old Yishuv? It was ancient Jewish community in Palestine that never left! LOL
Old Yishuv - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@LeveragedBuyout @Natan @500

 

[KingMamba]

Nothing to see here, @Solomon2 the Hasbara probably made a fortune from Israeli coffers just through this thread alone.

 

[KingMamba]

Very true indeed. Centuries of Islamic repression leads to such.

Change your flag Indian.

 

[Steakhouse]

Change your flag Indian.

You think he an Indian? I believe no Muslim will defend Jews to the extend of Norwegian defense Jews.

 

[KingMamba]

You think he an Indian? I believe no Muslim will defend Jews to the extend of Norwegian defense Jews.

Yep Indian false flag, not just that he makes lots of comments about other issues that Pakistanis wouldn't but Indians always do. He tries to play it off but it is obvious and he is not a Muslim he is atheist although scared to admit it although we are ironically on an anonymous forum lol.

 

[Steakhouse]

I don't believe in god or any religion as well but I never defended Jews as strong as Norwegian did.