Vietnam Defence Forum

[NiceGuy]

Time has changed, so does the enemy. VN can't be enemies to the whole world. We have to make friend, even to former foe. I don't trust US enough to let them have troops in VN, but I don't hate having them around the area either.

Don't underestimate the enemy and overestimate ourself. Doing that won't change the balance of power, but help us better prepare against them when the time come.

Dont allow US base in VN doesnt mean we r US's enemy, bro. We can fight alone without any foreigner troops, if u dont wanna fight, then just leave VN. Our pplation is 90 millions and still keep raising, 1 million leave VN is not a big problem.

And what make u guys keep begging for US troops when we can fight well ?? US is not a saint , they wont come and offer free help, Okay ?? Why u guys dont think that US troop may collude with China again like in 1979 to harm VN again ??

This is my last comment abt the idea of US troop in VN. it simply never happen unless US can give a great help like USSR, or they have to defeat our army.

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa Here is another interesting paper called "Submarine Hull Form Optimization Case Study" by C. Warren and M. Thomas (you can search in the link I gave you).

Note that the Kilo class has a highly tapered stern (the rate at which the hull profile transitions from a maxi-
mum radius to the propeller hub radius. A highly tapered stern is one in which this transition occurs slowly, result-
ing in a relatively slender profile)


The newer subs like the type-214 or even the Lada/Amur has a less tapered stern (the article would call this full-stern).


Basically, the paper argue that:



And this full stern hull with hydorodynamic optimum ratio allows it to achieve:



Baiscally, the full stern hull is a more efficient design (hydrodynamic-wise) in terms of speed. With the same propulsion power, a highly tapered stern hull would go slower than a full stern one. You can see why most modern subs are now less tapered than the Kilo.

However, this paper doesn't say anything about stealth. Another paper I've read, which I can't find it yet, basically says that the Type-214 would be more stealthy than the Kilo (more tapered) because:

- The propulsion motor was able to be shifted closer to the propeller (since its less tapered) so the propeller shaft is shorter (worry less about vibration and less mounts).
- Since the hull is a more efficient design and more compact, the propulsion system requires less power and most likely slower propulsion shaft speed (so this mean its more quiet). The "improved" kilo has a lower propeller speed than the earlier Kilo but it only achieved this by using a more powerful motor. The Type-214 can achieve a low propeller speed because of its better hydrodynamic design.

All your points are good. My big issues with your perspective is that you promote the type 214 and its specs and from my perspective I wouldn't touch such sub with a 12 foot pole because it has a history of so many design problems that it was actually a horror story, so for me, those specs don't mean anything because they are specs in paper. I just don't trust that design and the same goes for the Amur / Lada class because of the same reasons.

The Scorpene on the other hand is fine, I'm not aware of any serious issues, I think its a good sub and is certainly a more modern design than the Kilos. One spec where the Kilo is better than the Scorpene is the submerged speed, up to 25 knots for the Kilo, up to 20 knots for the Scorpene.

Why I think the Kilos are more silent than western subs? Because it has a very well established reputation of being a very silent sub!

Quoting Naval-technology.com: "The Type 636 submarine is considered to be one of the quietest diesel submarines in the world. It is said to be capable of detecting an enemy submarine at a range three to four times greater than it can be detected itself."

“The Project 636 Kilo-class submarine has been dubbed the “black hole” by the U.S. Navy for its level of quietness. The Project 636MV-class sub of Vietnam has improved stealth features through the removal of flooding ports and treating the hull with multilayer anechoic rubber tiles. The tiles are fitted on casings and fins to absorb active sonar waves that reduce and distort the return signal. The anechoic tiles also shield sounds from within the submarine thus reducing the range of detection by passive sonar.”

Why the US Navy calls the Kilos the "black holes"? Because they have a habit of approaching US vessels undetected, something that they have done many times and we all know that the US Navy has the most sophisticated ASW equipment, so for me, those are first class credentials, I'm not aware of any western subs with such a reputation. By the way, the anechoic rubber tiles in the Kilos as I understand are more comprehensive and complex than in other subs, they are actually a multilayer design that is extremely effective.

I understand that my reasons to consider the Kilos more silent than other subs are subjective and its impossible to prove, but they are solid arguments never the less.

This whole debate started because you said that the Kilos are obsolete, my point is that a sub that is so difficult to detect as to be called a "black hole" and with a good missile capability with the Club missiles can't be considered obsolete by any means, the project 636M of Vietnam is a very significant upgrade of the original Kilo and even that is not as modern as newer designs, it does its job with excellent results, its reliable, its a proven design, it has no issues and its very cheap.

Furthermore, the manufacturer, Rubin, its developing an AIP kit to retrofit into existing Kilos, so there you go, you'll be able to have a Kilo with AIP, not bad at all!

 

[Carlosa]

Yes, Danang is ideally located, next to South China Sea. Airfield and naval base can be upgraded in no time.

I'm not so sure that the Danang airfield and naval base can be easily expanded; the airfield is in the middle of the city and it shares the land with the airport, the airport itself is about to be expanded, I don't think there is extra land for the air base. I think a new base would have to be built outside the city, near the mountains (near the mountains would have the option of building tunnels into the mountains for underground parking of planes, that's what the chinese do in most of their air bases for added protection).

The naval base has limited space, here are some pics of the naval base:

 

[xesy]

What if there was a Vietnam-Philippine-Japan Military Alliance? Wonder how that would work out.

As I said, the 3 NOs policy is still in effect. In case you don't know what it is, it basically means: VN will never join any military alliance, will never be a military ally of any nation, will never let any nation set up base in VN and use this nation against that nation. People are debating whether we should keep this defense policy. But until then, the V-P-J alliance is only a P-J alliance.

 

[William Hung]

Totally correct, the cheapest European subs would cost at least $500 million compared to the $300 million of a Kilo and the Kilo is actually more silent than both of those.

Hmmm it looks like you're not here for a honest debate, you're only here to defend the VCP/VPA at all cost. While I only said I "suspect" the Scorp/U214 are more silent than the Kilo, you said outright that the Kilo is actually more silent. And I haven't seen any good argument/data to even suggest this.

All your points are good. My big issues with your perspective is that you promote the type 214 and its specs and from my perspective I wouldn't touch such sub with a 12 foot pole because it has a history of so many design problems that it was actually a horror story, so for me, those specs don't mean anything because they are specs in paper. I just don't trust that design and the same goes for the Amur / Lada class because of the same reasons.

There are many views about the Greek's 214 Submarine debacle. Some say it is all an excuse from the Greeks to avoid paying due to their financial crisis (I have an interview article from HDW reps who said their subs met all standards). Some say they are all minor defects and kinks that were overblown by the Greeks, but were easily later rectified (seems to be this case for S Korea). If it were so bad, why did the Turks recently ordered them? why did the Portuguese ordered them? they seem happy with theirs. The most important and telling sign is that the S Koreans have ordered a second batch of the 214, and they ordered more units than the first batch. This is far from your suggested "horror story" where the specs is "only on paper and don't mean anything."

The Scorpene on the other hand is fine, I'm not aware of any serious issues, I think its a good sub and is certainly a more modern design than the Kilos. One spec where the Kilo is better than the Scorpene is the submerged speed, up to 25 knots for the Kilo, up to 20 knots for the Scorpene.

Did you read the article I linked for you? the top speed limit of subs are self-imposed, they deliberately make the limit. Going over 20 knots is noisy and will interfere and compromise its own sonar. There is no point going an extra 4-5knot over the typical 20knot, no sub can ever outrun a torpedo, ASW aircraft or even a ASW ship. Like what the article said, stealth and range/endurance is more important.

Why I think the Kilos are more silent than western subs? Because it has a very well established reputation of being a very silent sub!

What? how does that proves or even suggest the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214?

Quoting Naval-technology.com: "The Type 636 submarine is considered to be one of the quietest diesel submarines in the world. It is said to be capable of detecting an enemy submarine at a range three to four times greater than it can be detected itself."

“The Project 636 Kilo-class submarine has been dubbed the “black hole” by the U.S. Navy for its level of quietness.

Firstly, naval-tech.com is just a web portal for military news and promo/marketing style writing. They are not research engineers doing technical analysis and experiment. One of their journalist is just a military tech ethusiast who even go on another forum, he mostly go to expo and copy-paste the news and promo/marketing materials from company reps. You can easily see this writing style in their website. One of the paper I refer you to is a article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal written by research engineers.

They give technical arguments why one hull is better than another, they don't just repeat promo/marketing materials from company reps.

Secondly, nothing from what you quoted shows or even suggest that the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214.

The Project 636MV-class sub of Vietnam has improved stealth features through the removal of flooding ports and treating the hull with multilayer anechoic rubber tiles.

This only says that the improved kilo is more steathy than the earlier Kilo. Doesn't mean that its more steathy than the Scorp/214.

The tiles are fitted on casings and fins to absorb active sonar waves that reduce and distort the return signal. The anechoic tiles also shield sounds from within the submarine thus reducing the range of detection by passive sonar.”

...By the way, the anechoic rubber tiles in the Kilos as I understand are more comprehensive and complex than in other subs, they are actually a multilayer design that is extremely effective.

Like I said, anechoic rubber is not exclusive to russian subs. In fact, the germans used it decades before the soviet did. Can you provide source that the russian design is more effective/superior to the German ones? what design does the German tiles have?

Why the US Navy calls the Kilos the "black holes"? Because they have a habit of approaching US vessels undetected, something that they have done many times and we all know that the US Navy has the most sophisticated ASW equipment, so for me, those are first class credentials, I'm not aware of any western subs with such a reputation

This is just bad logic. The Kilo has a nick name "black hole", therefore it is more silent than the Scorp/214?

The Phantom F-4 has the nick name "Mig killer" and has a reputation of killing Migs. They have a habit of shooting down Migs. These are first class credential. The F-22 does not have this nick name or reputation, therefore the F-4 is superior to the F-22????

Like the F-22, the Scorp/214 are newer generation subs and has different operators working in different region. You can't make comparision purely based on their history and nick name.

Btw, when was the last time a Kilo succesfully trailed US ships undetected? exactly who and when was the Kilo given the nick name "black hole"? Is there precise info out there? or are these just recycled writings from journalist? If they are words from decades ago, how is this relevant to the current debate about the steath character of the Kilo vs Scorp/214?

I understand that my reasons to consider the Kilos more silent than other subs are subjective and its impossible to prove, but they are solid arguments never the less.

No, I haven't seen solid arguments yet other than promo/marketing type quotes from naval-tech and journalists. And your claim is not just subjective, you said the Kilo is actually more silent than the Scorp/214. I have atleast given some technical analysis for my views. I can find more from peer-reviewed journals, but it seems like you have no interest in a real debate. You only want to defend the VCP/VPA here.

This whole debate started because you said that the Kilos are obsolete, my point is that a sub that is so difficult to detect as to be called a "black hole" and with a good missile capability with the Club missiles can't be considered obsolete by any means,

No, I never said the Kilo are obsolete, read my posts again. I said it is outdated. Meaning the technology used on the Kilo is old compared to the newer generation like the Scorp/214/Lada (even if the Lada wasn't entirely successfully, it still tried to utilise newer tech). The AIP system is readily available for the Scorp/214, while the Kilo currently does not have that option.

The highly tapered stern design of the Kilo hull is an example of an outdated design, just like how the article argues. Even the Chinese S20 sub, which some western media say is based on the Kilo, does not have such highly tapered stern. This design alone has implication for hydrodynamic, power efficiency and acoustic signature. No one, other than an ardent apologist for the VCP/VPA, would deny the superior technology of AIP systems of the western subs and its significance. There are also potentially many other examples of newer western technology like newer diesel engines, etc. Calling the Kilo technologically outdated compared to the newer generation is justified. However, it does not mean the Kilo is useless and I've never said they are obsolete.

the project 636M of Vietnam is a very significant upgrade of the original Kilo and even that is not as modern as newer designs, it does its job with excellent results, its reliable, its a proven design, it has no issues and its very cheap.

How does this prove that the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214 like you've said earlier? It only say that VN's Kilo is an improvement over the older Kilo design.

Furthermore, the manufacturer, Rubin, its developing an AIP kit to retrofit into existing Kilos, so there you go, you'll be able to have a Kilo with AIP, not bad at all!

You totally disregard the Lada for its "problems". You do know its AIP development is one part of those "problems" don't you?

 

[Carlosa]

Hmmm it looks like you're not here for a honest debate, you're only here to defend the VCP/VPA at all cost. While I only said I "suspect" the Scorp/U214 are more silent than the Kilo, you said outright that the Kilo is actually more silent. And I haven't seen any good argument/data to even suggest this.



There are many views about the Greek's 214 Submarine debacle. Some say it is all an excuse from the Greeks to avoid paying due to their financial crisis (I have an interview article from HDW reps who said their subs met all standards). Some say they are all minor defects and kinks that were overblown by the Greeks, but were easily later rectified (seems to be this case for S Korea). If it were so bad, why did the Turks recently ordered them? why did the Portuguese ordered them? they seem happy with theirs. The most important and telling sign is that the S Koreans have ordered a second batch of the 214, and they ordered more units than the first batch. This is far from your suggested "horror story" where the specs is "only on paper and don't mean anything."



Did you read the article I linked for you? the top speed limit of subs are self-imposed, they deliberately make the limit. Going over 20 knots is noisy and will interfere and compromise its own sonar. There is no point going an extra 4-5knot over the typical 20knot, no sub can ever outrun a torpedo, ASW aircraft or even a ASW ship. Like what the article said, stealth and range/endurance is more important.



What? how does that proves or even suggest the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214?



Firstly, naval-tech.com is just a web portal for military news and promo/marketing style writing. They are not research engineers doing technical analysis and experiment. One of their journalist is just a military tech ethusiast who even go on another forum, he mostly go to expo and copy-paste the news and promo/marketing materials from company reps. You can easily see this writing style in their website. One of the paper I refer you to is a article from a peer-reviewed scientific journal written by research engineers.

They give technical arguments why one hull is better than another, they don't just repeat promo/marketing materials from company reps.

Secondly, nothing from what you quoted shows or even suggest that the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214.



This only says that the improved kilo is more steathy than the earlier Kilo. Doesn't mean that its more steathy than the Scorp/214.



Like I said, anechoic rubber is not exclusive to russian subs. In fact, the germans used it decades before the soviet did. Can you provide source that the russian design is more effective/superior to the German ones? what design does the German tiles have?



This is just bad logic. The Kilo has a nick name "black hole", therefore it is more silent than the Scorp/214?

The Phantom F-4 has the nick name "Mig killer" and has a reputation of killing Migs. They have a habit of shooting down Migs. These are first class credential. The F-22 does not have this nick name or reputation, therefore the F-4 is superior to the F-22????

Like the F-22, the Scorp/214 are newer generation subs and has different operators working in different region. You can't make comparision purely based on their history and nick name.

Btw, when was the last time a Kilo succesfully trailed US ships undetected? exactly who and when was the Kilo given the nick name "black hole"? Is there precise info out there? or are these just recycled writings from journalist? If they are words from decades ago, how is this relevant to the current debate about the steath character of the Kilo vs Scorp/214?



No, I haven't seen solid arguments yet other than promo/marketing type quotes from naval-tech and journalists. And your claim is not just subjective, you said the Kilo is actually more silent than the Scorp/214. I have atleast given some technical analysis for my views. I can find more from peer-reviewed journals, but it seems like you have no interest in a real debate. You only want to defend the VCP/VPA here.



No, I never said the Kilo are obsolete, read my posts again. I said it is outdated. Meaning the technology used on the Kilo is old compared to the newer generation like the Scorp/214/Lada (even if the Lada wasn't entirely successfully, it still tried to utilise newer tech). The AIP system is readily available for the Scorp/214, while the Kilo currently does not have that option.

The highly tapered stern design of the Kilo hull is an example of an outdated design, just like how the article argues. Even the Chinese S20 sub, which some western media say is based on the Kilo, does not have such highly tapered stern. This design alone has implication for hydrodynamic, power efficiency and acoustic signature. No one, other than an ardent apologist for the VCP/VPA, would deny the superior technology of AIP systems of the western subs and its significance. There are also potentially many other examples of newer western technology like newer diesel engines, etc. Calling the Kilo technologically outdated compared to the newer generation is justified. However, it does not mean the Kilo is useless and I've never said they are obsolete.



How does this prove that the Kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214 like you've said earlier? It only say that VN's Kilo is an improvement over the older Kilo design.



You totally disregard the Lada for its "problems". You do know its AIP development is one part of those "problems" don't you?

I think we are going around in circles a bit too much. I already told you that I agree that the 214 and Scorpene are newer, more modern designs, but i don't agree that the Kilo is outdated in any meaningful way. You can't prove that the 214 is more silent and neither can I about the Kilo, nobody can prove it either way. We only have circumstantial evidence, but the unresolved noise issues with the 214 are enough for me (see below).

You said that I just want to favor the Kilo no matter what, well, I feel you are doing the same thing, you are clearly biased in favor of the 214 and against the Kilo, so we are not going to agree. I have a lot of respect for what the US Navy says about the Kilo, you disregard that and ask for the type of proof that is impossible to obtain, so we are going nowhere. Be happy with your preference, I'm happy with mine.

By the way, Indonesia is negotiating with Russia right now for a sizable purchase of "outdated" Kilos 636M.

The South Koreans also had and have significant issues with the 214 by the way.

The problems with the 214 design, from Wikipedia:

"The Type 214 procurement programs of international customers have had a history of technical problems. The first Type 214 submarine sold to Korea, Son Won-il, was reported to suffer noise problems allegedly due to faults in HDW's Type 214 design. South Korean and Greek Type 214 submarines had a host of other nearly identical problems, including instability while surfaced, periscope vibrations and seawater leaking in the hydraulics. While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. It is uncertain if DAPA received a price reduction for the fourth unit when it was contracted to DSME."

If the issues with the Greek 214's are related to payment issues, how come the South Korean 214's have the same problems as the Greek ones?

The 214 has a noise problem that has not being fixed yet and you are trying to argue that is more silent than the Kilo? Please !!!!! The 214 is clearly a faulty design, period!

I think I made my point and your bias for the 214 has been clearly shown! I'll take the reliable "black hole" Kilo any day over the noisy 214,

 

[William Hung]

I think we are going around in circles a bit too much. I already told you that I agree that the 214 and Scorpene are newer, more modern designs, but i don't agree that the Kilo is outdated in any meaningful way. You can't prove that the 214 is more silent and neither can I about the Kilo, nobody can prove it either way. We only have circumstantial evidence, but the unresolved noise issues with the 214 are enough for me (see below).

No I'm not goin around in circle. I only said I "suspect" that the Scorp/U214 is more silent than the Kilo. Then I begin to give arguments for it, such as the Hull analysis by research engineer or the AIP system which are currently not available for the Kilo. Even if it is only my suspicion, I still gave stronger arguments than yours.

You said "the kilo is actually more silent than them", so give me the acoustic signature data (even with the "defective" U214 acoustic signature data) for both so I can make a comparison and agree that your claim is correct. You were not just giving an opinion or a speculation, you said it "is actually more silent." So give me concrete evidence to show your statement is true or admit you were bluffing.

You said that I just want to favor the Kilo no matter what, well, I feel you are doing the same thing, you are clearly biased in favor of the 214 and against the Kilo, so we are not going to agree. I have a lot of respect for what the US Navy says about the Kilo, you disregard that and ask for the type of proof that is impossible to obtain, so we are going nowhere. Be happy with your preference, I'm happy with mine.

I don't care about your or mine favoritism or bias. I want to see proofs or good arguments. If you have no proofs, then why did you assert that "the kilo is actually more silent"??? if you say "I prefer kilo, I think its better" then I will have no problem, but you claim that it is actually more silent.

I did not disregard the US's view, what I ask was, how can the nick name "black hole" be a good proof that the kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214???

By the way, Indonesia is negotiating with Russia right now for a sizable purchase of "outdated" Kilos 636M.

I don't know much about the Indonesian plan. Last I heard they signed contract to buy type 209 from SK. Its better to ask Indonesian members.

And how is this relevant to the debate between Kilo vs Scorp/214?

The South Koreans also had and have significant issues with the 214 by the way.

Significant? you know this how? can you give a reliable source other than wikipedia with a broken link to a 2008 webpage?

The problems with the 214 design, from Wikipedia:

"The Type 214 procurement programs of international customers have had a history of technical problems. The first Type 214 submarine sold to Korea, Son Won-il, was reported to suffer noise problems allegedly due to faults in HDW's Type 214 design. South Korean and Greek Type 214 submarines had a host of other nearly identical problems, including instability while surfaced, periscope vibrations and seawater leaking in the hydraulics. While these problems in the South Korean Type 214s have been reportedly resolved, the noise level has yet to be reduced as promised by HDW. The company was fined $4.1 million by DAPA in February 2008 for ongoing technical problems. In November, a South Korean National Assembly demanded price reductions for the remaining six submarines, arguing that HDW was using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential. It is uncertain if DAPA received a price reduction for the fourth unit when it was contracted to DSME."

If the issues with the Greek 214's are related to payment issues, how come the South Korean 214's have the same problems as the Greek ones?

I gave you a reference to a peer-reviewed article and you gave me a wikipedia page with a reference to a broken link.

Identical problems? really? give me a reliable source to the specifics without a broken link. You know the Greek gave a huge lists of "problems," it would be surprise if they had "identical" problems. What really went on is still disputed. The Greek claims they are big issues, HDW claim they are minor that were easily rectified.

You and I neither know what the real reason was. But here are some evidence to discredit the Greeks claim:

-Greece's economy almost went bankrupt shortly after this dispute.
-While the Portuguese went a head and made a order, and until now did not complained about any major issues.
-Turkey also made an order for 6
-South Korea made a order for a bigger second batch. Their lawsuit only asked for compensation for "using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential." Firstly, they didn't file a lawsuit for not meeting specs or standards. It clearly say the German used them to correct faults. This suggest that the faults has been succesfuly rectified like I said, otherwise they would also add that to the lawsuit and they wouldn't make a second order.

]The 214 has a noise problem that has not being fixed yet and you are trying to argue that is more silent than the Kilo? Please !!!!! The 214 is clearly a faulty design, period!

Firstly, where is your evidence that the "problem" has not being fixed yet? it is clearly a faulty design? even now in 2014? I gave you a list that suggest why it is problem solved right now....So pls give me some arguments why it is "clearly" a faulty design that has not being fixed yet in 2014.

I don't want to think the Portuguese, Turks and S Koreans are that stupid...so give me some evidence pls.

Secondly, even if we assume that there are "noise" issue that haven't been resolved...do you still have evidence or proof to show that the kilo is actually more quiet"??? do you have data back up this assertion?? do you have the acoustic signature of both?

I think I made my point and your bias for the 214 has been clearly shown! I'll take the reliable "black hole" Kilo any day over the noisy 214,

I don't care about mine or your bias...I'm still waiting for your arguments or evidence why the kilo is actually more silent than the Scorp/214.

Notice I haven't even touch upon the Scorpene yet, so your "faulty design" claim is even more weak there.

 

[Viet]

Dont allow US base in VN doesnt mean we r US's enemy, bro. We can fight alone without any foreigner troops, if u dont wanna fight, then just leave VN. Our pplation is 90 millions and still keep raising, 1 million leave VN is not a big problem.

And what make u guys keep begging for US troops when we can fight well ?? US is not a saint , they wont come and offer free help, Okay ?? Why u guys dont think that US troop may collude with China again like in 1979 to harm VN again ??

This is my last comment abt the idea of US troop in VN. it simply never happen unless US can give a great help like USSR, or they have to defeat our army.

bro, what is your plan if the chinese return with more oil rigs and warships and intrude into our EEZ and do whatever they please?

what is your plan if they introduce ADIZ and start banning our fishermen from working within their 9-dash line?

you are one of the voices who opposes allying with America. and you are in the minority. I posted a poll recently conducted in Vietnam. the majority sees China is a threat (not surprisingly) and wants an alliance with America.

You wrongly assume allying with America equalling to surrending of sovereignty. No, it is not. It is a step to strengthen our defence and offensive capacity. Sure, you are right, everything has a cost, nothing is free in this world. but that does not mean we should sit idle and do nothing. risk comes with reward.

Further, you make the mistake by believing America would abandon Vietnam if China offers a better deal in one day. Because if America does so, her allies beginning from Germany to Japan to Philippines would lose their trust to the superpower. Will the US risk to lose her credibility for a local strategic gain? well, nobody can predict the future, but betrayal of an ally is a very serious issue. No matter what, we should implement steps to prevent a such fallout. Just in case.

today thing is not comparable to what happened in 1979 when America supported China cause. back then the US had been hostile to Vietnam and sought ways to compensate the humiliated defeat.

 

[Nike]

meh we scrapped the plan after see it firsthand and the technical crew who visiting it just taking one word to comment, it's Junk. The Russian offered us junks in which all of them not worth to be taken seriously, only rusty boats with full of holes, much better for us to keeping our old U-209 than taking and refurbished their old Kilos. On other hands Navy taking seriously their offer of Amur class with VLS system and AIP technologies. If only our wallet can afford it, we surely will taking Amur class submarines for special mission subs while building a lot of U-209 chang bo go class for quantity.

 

[Carlosa]

No I'm not goin around in circle. I only said I "suspect" that the Scorp/U214 is more silent than the Kilo. Then I begin to give arguments for it, such as the Hull analysis by research engineer or the AIP system which are currently not available for the Kilo. Even if it is only my suspicion, I still gave stronger arguments than yours.

You said "the kilo is actually more silent than them", so give me the acoustic signature data (even with the "defective" U214 acoustic signature data) for both so I can make a comparison and agree that your claim is correct. You were not just giving an opinion or a speculation, you said it "is actually more silent." So give me concrete evidence to show your statement is true or admit you were bluffing.



I don't care about your or mine favoritism or bias. I want to see proofs or good arguments. If you have no proofs, then why did you assert that "the kilo is actually more silent"??? if you say "I prefer kilo, I think its better" then I will have no problem, but you claim that it is actually more silent.

I did not disregard the US's view, what I ask was, how can the nick name "black hole" be a good proof that the kilo is more silent than the Scorp/214???



I don't know much about the Indonesian plan. Last I heard they signed contract to buy type 209 from SK. Its better to ask Indonesian members.

And how is this relevant to the debate between Kilo vs Scorp/214?



Significant? you know this how? can you give a reliable source other than wikipedia with a broken link to a 2008 webpage?



I gave you a reference to a peer-reviewed article and you gave me a wikipedia page with a reference to a broken link.

Identical problems? really? give me a reliable source to the specifics without a broken link. You know the Greek gave a huge lists of "problems," it would be surprise if they had "identical" problems. What really went on is still disputed. The Greek claims they are big issues, HDW claim they are minor that were easily rectified.

You and I neither know what the real reason was. But here are some evidence to discredit the Greeks claim:

-Greece's economy almost went bankrupt shortly after this dispute.
-While the Portuguese went a head and made a order, and until now did not complained about any major issues.
-Turkey also made an order for 6
-South Korea made a order for a bigger second batch. Their lawsuit only asked for compensation for "using the South Korean market to correct faults in the Type 214 to increase the submarine's overall international export potential." Firstly, they didn't file a lawsuit for not meeting specs or standards. It clearly say the German used them to correct faults. This suggest that the faults has been succesfuly rectified like I said, otherwise they would also add that to the lawsuit and they wouldn't make a second order.



Firstly, where is your evidence that the "problem" has not being fixed yet? it is clearly a faulty design? even now in 2014? I gave you a list that suggest why it is problem solved right now....So pls give me some arguments why it is "clearly" a faulty design that has not being fixed yet in 2014.

I don't want to think the Portuguese, Turks and S Koreans are that stupid...so give me some evidence pls.

Secondly, even if we assume that there are "noise" issue that haven't been resolved...do you still have evidence or proof to show that the kilo is actually more quiet"??? do you have data back up this assertion?? do you have the acoustic signature of both?



I don't care about mine or your bias...I'm still waiting for your arguments or evidence why the kilo is actually more silent than the Scorp/214.

Notice I haven't even touch upon the Scorpene yet, so your "faulty design" claim is even more weak there.

The Kilo is more silent than the 214 because the 214 has an unfixed noise problem that is unfixed because it requires a redesign of the sub, period!

You debate the same way as "grand" historian, when you don't like the arguments, you demand proof that you know is impossible or difficult for lay people to obtain.

You show me the acoustical data that shows your claim about the 214 and about the fact that the noise problem has been fixed and show me statements from South Korean officials where they say that there are no issues with the 214.

Why I bring up Indonesia? Because you bring up South Korea, etc, I can make the same argument as you, do you think the Indonesians are stupid? And stop using the South Koreans as a reference of a happy customer of the 214 when they are clearly not happy with it.

I'm done wasting time with you in this useless debate, you only accept what fits your preferences. Its like talking to a chinese wall.

 

[Carlosa]

meh we scrapped the plan after see it firsthand and the technical crew who visiting it just taking one word to comment, it's Junk. The Russian offered us junks in which all of them not worth to be taken seriously, only rusty boats with full of holes, much better for us to keeping our old U-209 than taking and refurbished their old Kilos. On other hands Navy taking seriously their offer of Amur class with VLS system and AIP technologies. If only our wallet can afford it, we surely will taking Amur class submarines for special mission subs while building a lot of U-209 chang bo go class for quantity.

Thank you for the update on the Indonesian second hand Kilo deal, I was not aware that it was about second hand subs.

That makes a lot of sense, second hand Russian ships are useless after spending many years rusting away in port without maintenance after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but anyway, our debate here is about new subs and their technology.

I also think that the Korean chang bo go class is a good option for quantity, the Koreans have significantly improved the 209 design, enlarged it and is about the same price as the Kilos, $305 million. The South Koreans are the upcoming dark horse in submarines.

 

[Viet]

I'm not so sure that the Danang airfield and naval base can be easily expanded; the airfield is in the middle of the city and it shares the land with the airport, the airport itself is about to be expanded, I don't think there is extra land for the air base. I think a new base would have to be built outside the city, near the mountains (near the mountains would have the option of building tunnels into the mountains for underground parking of planes, that's what the chinese do in most of their air bases for added protection).

The naval base has limited space, here are some pics of the naval base:

View attachment 44928 View attachment 44929 View attachment 44930

you are right. I overlooked the issue. the army needs to build something new. the place to be is probably here, Son Tra Peninsula, yes, near the mountain, not too far from Danang. With money and expertise from America, we can build a second Hawaii naval base

How was your Phu Quoc vacation?

 

[Viet]

meh we scrapped the plan after see it firsthand and the technical crew who visiting it just taking one word to comment, it's Junk. The Russian offered us junks in which all of them not worth to be taken seriously, only rusty boats with full of holes, much better for us to keeping our old U-209 than taking and refurbished their old Kilos. On other hands Navy taking seriously their offer of Amur class with VLS system and AIP technologies. If only our wallet can afford it, we surely will taking Amur class submarines for special mission subs while building a lot of U-209 chang bo go class for quantity.

is your country seriously considering buying Amur subs?
isn´t China your friend? are chinese subs an option for you?

 

[Nike]

is your country seriously considering buying Amur subs?
isn´t China your friend? are chinese subs an option for you?

meh doesn't take any interest at that, Indonesian Navy much prefer European model Subs and Ships than China or even Russian models (they've offered us but we reject it)

 

[William Hung]

Hehehehe brother don't get mad. You are acting like NiceGuy, you like to start argument with others but when you can no longer argue, you get mad. Are you guys brother?

It is simple, if you want to claim some facts, then back it up! If you're only giving opinions or speculation, then I don't mind.

Read again at the beginning, you're the one who started the debate. I was only talking with xesy and said that the Scorp/214 is better than kilo cause of better specs and I suspect they are more silent.

Then you jump in and challenged me to give details why it's better or more silent. I list the superior specs but you said ahhh specs are classified and not accurate blah blah (so why SK don't file lawsuit?).

I then told you its my speculation and give some arguments why it's more silent. I also said we both can't know for sure. BUT you still went ahead and claim the kilo is actually more silent.

I gave you some links and article to support my speculation and ask you to provide your evidence or argument for your factual claims. You then quote some journalist cliché and non academic website that doesn't even say anything about kilo being more silent. I pointed this out and you started to get mad and make even more unsupported factual claims. LOL

You challenged me to give arguments to support my speculation which I did. I then challenge you to give arguments for your factual claims. You get mad and say it's impossible... well then, don't go around making factual claims and challenging people.

The Kilo is more silent than the 214 because the 214 has an unfixed noise problem that is unfixed because it requires a redesign of the sub, period!

See, making more factual claims without evidence. Is the noise problem in fact still unfixed even in 2014?? evidence where?

You debate the same way as "grand" historian, when you don't like the arguments, you demand proof that you know is impossible or difficult for lay people to obtain.

You show me the acoustical data that shows your claim about the 214 and about the fact that the noise problem has been fixed and show me statements from South Korean officials where they say that there are no issues with the 214.

I only demand proofs for the factual claims that you've made. You say kilo is actually more silent, so show me your proofs.

I said I only suspected that Scorp/214 is more silent but still give you some solid arguments anyway. So I don't need these acoustic data. You made a factual claim that kilo is more silent so you're the one who needs the acoustic data.

SK didn't add anything about unfixed issues in their lawsuit. Contrarily, they said they were being used to "correct faults" which is a good indication it has been fixed. It is you who now need to provide evidences that it has not been fixed in 2014.

Why I bring up Indonesia? Because you bring up South Korea, etc, I can make the same argument as you, do you think the Indonesians are stupid? And stop using the South Koreans as a reference of a happy customer of the 214 when they are clearly not happy with it.

Unlike you I don't claim to know everything and make unsupported false claims. I know that Indonesia is under contract with SK for U209 but I don't make the same fake bluff like you that they are Right Now under negotiation for Kilos.

SK was bought up when you said U214 has many unresolved issues. Why SK don't put that in their lawsuit but went ahead to order more? their lawsuit only said they were being used to correct faults. This suggest it's indeed solved to a satisfactory standard. The onus is on you to show that it's currently not solved yet. Putting these symbols >> !!!!!! will not make your assertion proven. You should have just used "QED" it's a little better than "!!!"

I'm done wasting time with you in this useless debate, you only accept what fits your preferences. Its like talking to a NiceWall.

You the one who started the debate and challenged me. When I challenge you back, you started to use "!!!!!!"

Don't get mad, it's only the Internet. With more time, you will get better at defending the VCP/VPA. Keep your hopes up.

Love,
Black Flag