Using Skyguard III to destroy a Hypersonic target

[RAMPAGE]

Is it possible to destroy a .... lets say sea-skimming cruise missile traveling with a speed of 3 km/s (10 mach) ???

In this scenario, the Air Defence System (Skyguard 3) is the actual target of the hypersonic CM.

As I understand, the FCR will detect the missile and then the guns will open fire such that the projectile and the missile meet at a distance of 4 km (cannon range) from the Air Defence System !!!

So do you think that the CM will be destroyed at the instant of the contact ???

If yes, then do you think that the hypersonic shrapnel will be enough to destroy the target ???


Skyguard III 3 Oerlikon air defense system cannon missile technical data sheet specifications - Army Recognition - Army Recognition


@Aeronaut @Kaan @Chak Bamu @Dillinger @gambit @DESERT FIGHTER

 

[That Guy]

@gambit

I think you'd be the expert here, would it be possible?

 

[RAMPAGE]

@gambit

I think you'd be the expert here, would it be possible?

We had a similar discussion. lets see if I can dig up his post.

Question by me : Is it possible to intercept Brahmos with a CIWS ?

Gambit's answer : Sure, but the problems of detection and tracking remains. You need to keep in mind that CIWS will be at ground level, therefore most susceptible to line-of-sight issues. When the Brahmos breaks horizon, the gun will have only literally seconds to reorient itself and fire. This short time span require equally precise radar information as if you are relying on a missile's radar to make its interception.

Question by me : lets say that the radar can track the target at distance of 8km but the gun can engage at 3 km, so can the target be intercepted when it's speed is 2 km/s ?

Gambit's answer : Assume radar tracking and gun reorient is perfect. It does not matter if target is supersonic. If the gun can engage at 3km, which in this case the assumption is head-on, then target speed is not an issue. The gun radar will calculate target speed, estimate when it will reach that 3km point, then fire just before the target reach that 3km point. If radar tracking and gun response are perfect, then bullets and target will meet at 3km distance out.

You should understand that in a head-on intercept, and continue to assume that tracking is perfect, the only reason why target approach speed is important is IF you want to avoid shrapnel. Because the intruder is coming so fast, even if you successfully hit him, there is still forward momentum at supersonic speed for a lot of small masses, still capable of doing a lot of damages if not kill something/someone.

So if we return to that 3km engagement distance, if radar tracking and gun reorient is not as good as you like, even though your bullets may intercept the intruder, that interception may be at 100 meters instead of 3km, spraying you with supersonic shrapnel. But let us say that your AWACS alerted you to a supersonic intruder, your gun reorient to the indicated direction and your gun radar begin transmitting. The moment the supersonic intruder breaks your horizon view, gun radar will have a solution and you will have interception at 3km distance out.

If you are defending something else that the intruder is going after, then the gun solution will lead the intruder, in other words, the bullets will be at an estimated point AHEAD of the intruder's flight and you still will have an interception at 3km distance out. In this situation, the lead depends on the off angle between you and whatever it is that you are defending.


@That Guy

 

[RAMPAGE]

So no comments ???

 

[rockstar08]

Depends on the Detection ability of radar the Guns they are using . but i dont think it will because it will destroy the concept of Hypersonic CM,

 

[Viper0011.]

So no comments ???

What are the assumptions? Is the radar able to track hypersonic missiles and in perfect conditions and 100% precise? This is a land based system, a CM type of an object may not be detected properly or in time for the system to make an interception as it may have difficulty in determining ground clutter and a super low flying object. Plus the processing capacity needs to be tremendous as hypersonic objects require a super fast firing solution calculated and implemented by the radar (one extra second means 3 KM worth of additional distance traveled by the incoming object). The bullets will have to hit the object at max distance out and entirely destroy it.
What's the range of interception in this scenario? Say at 2-3 km away, if the system intercepts properly and destroys the object, the debris and shrapnel will spray the area and can damage things within the area of impact. It is ground based so I can't imagine how the post explosion shrapnel would travel 2-3 km and hit the system. The gravity would pull most of these objects down but damage will happen in the area where the shrapnel would land.
But if the gun hits the object and fails to destroy it properly, then there are strong chances that the warhead will make it to the target or will explode rather close and could damage the system tremendously. At supersonic (or Hypersonic in this case), you don't really have much time due to supersonic speed. The kill probability or the hit to kill ratio needs to be like 100%.
This may be different if the interception took place at sea level. Then you'll get hit by shrapnel as the collision will be head-on.

 

[RAMPAGE]

What are the assumptions? Is the radar perfect and 100% precise? This is a land based system, a CM type of an object may not be detected properly or in time for the system to make an interception as it may have difficulty in determining ground clutter and a super low flying object.

Can't a radar differentiate between stationary return and that from a hypersonic object ???

This may be different if the interception took place at sea level. Then you'll get hit by shrapnel as the collision will be head-on.

What has head-on interception got to do with shrapnel ??? In both cases the interception is head-on.

Depends on the Detection ability of radar the Guns they are using . but i dont think it will because it will destroy the concept of Hypersonic CM,

Haan haan Janab ab tou aap nai Post #3 parh li hai na !!!

 

[HariPrasad]

Is it possible to destroy a .... lets say sea-skimming cruise missile traveling with a speed of 3 km/s (10 mach) ???

In this scenario, the Air Defence System (Skyguard 3) is the actual target of the hypersonic CM.

As I understand, the FCR will detect the missile and then the guns will open fire such that the projectile and the missile meet at a distance of 4 km (cannon range) from the Air Defence System !!!

So do you think that the CM will be destroyed at the instant of the contact ???

If yes, then do you think that the hypersonic shrapnel will be enough to destroy the target ???


Skyguard III 3 Oerlikon air defense system cannon missile technical data sheet specifications - Army Recognition - Army Recognition


@Aeronaut @Kaan @Chak Bamu @Dillinger @gambit @DESERT FIGHTER

A missile traveling at a speed of 3 KM/S will be destroyed at 4 KM Away. How much is the response time? Gun have to kill it in Maximum 1.33 Second.

 

[RAMPAGE]

A missile traveling at a speed of 3 KM/S will be destroyed at 4 KM Away. How much is the response time? Gun have to kill it in Maximum 1.33 Second.

Take a look at Post #3.

Using Skyguard III to destroy a Hypersonic target

 

[RAMPAGE]

@orangzaib can I get a reply ??? Pardon me if i'm asking stupid questions. I'm quite ignorant when it comes to radars.

 

[kṣamā]

For intercepting a supersonic object one really needs a quick reaction system. When I say quick, it means reaaly quick....Even if the interception is head on 3Km out, the debris spray will definitely damage the sensitive radar unit... A complete decimation of the intruder is required or else it will leave the system unprotected for the next salvo.

 

[Audio]

So do you think that the CM will be destroyed at the instant of the contact ???

i can't comment on radar, but the ammo is:

The gun fires short, 24 round burst of high velocity Ahead rounds aimed at the target’s intercept point. Every projectile is programmed by a muzzle based electromagnetic inductor, which sets an electronic timer to activate and separate the projectile into 152 heavy tungsten metal spin-stabilized sub-projectiles (3.3 gram each), forming a lethal cone shaped metal cloud, placed ahead of the target in its flight path.

Though reaction time seems, uhmm, slow for a Mach 3 intercept.

The manufacturer claims a very short response time for the system, as low as 4.5 seconds from target detection to firing.

AHEAD Air Burst Munition | Defense Update:

 

[RAMPAGE]

i can't comment on radar, but the ammo is:

Though reaction time seems, uhmm, slow for a Mach 3 intercept.



AHEAD Air Burst Munition | Defense Update:

Radar detection range = 20 km

System response time = 5 seconds

Target's speed = 3 km/s

So according to these figures, when the system will be able to respond, the distance between the Target and the System will be 5 Km.

I'd say that the target will be intercepted.

 

[Viper0011.]

Can't a radar differentiate between stationary return and that from a hypersonic object ???

What has head-on interception got to do with shrapnel ??? In both cases the interception is head-on.

1) Depends on the radar. New one's can but there are still older ones out there too and those might have a hard time figuring out ground clutter vs. terrain-hugging objects. In fact, new radars also can only see clear patterns. If something moves fast but its terrain hugging, it may skip in and out of the radar due to flying so low.

But in general, can a radar detect a target moving at Hypersonic speed at normal ....yes. But is that enough? In this case here, neither just detection nor only tracking is needed. Will you use such a small system to detect or monitor your airspace? The 3-D AN-TPS 77 type of Radars, etc are used for airspace monitoring. The purpose here is to detect, track, determine a fire control solution, implement it and still take out the object flying super fast.

Then the question is, does the radar and its peripheral systems have enough computing power to detect an object flying that fast at short distances, create and communicate a fire control solution and still take out the target at max range (3KM was what we were discussing I think). Each second is 3-5 KM's worth of distance for an object flying that fast so if the radar takes a second to authorize firing based on a calculated solution, it may be over as the object would hit it in that one second.....

2) In a ship's case, it'll be a head-on scenario, if you couldn't destroy the object all the way and I mean the thing explodes 3 KM away.....then you should get ready for impact or some impact. Even some impact may be dangerous enough to cause damage. In an over the ground scenario, the new missiles do maneuver and don't always have to come right in front of you. Some objects are trajectory based. At the end, all will be focused on hitting the target but not necessarily head-on. Even if the gun rotates towards the object, it doesn't mean the object comes in the line of sight right in your face (if you will), unless its right before the impact.
Plus coming towards a ship....there is nothing else, you are coming towards but the ship. Even if the incoming object took direct fire, it's still coming towards the ship if it didn't explode entirely.
But, in a land mass scenario, incoming missile isn't coming straight within the line of sight and head-on, so destroying a target out by 3 km PLUS gravity could bring debris down faster. If you hit the inbound object enough that it didn't get destroyed all the way but it changed its terminal phase trajectory, it can fly past the target and hit the ground away from the target as the target may be small, etc, etc. In a Ship's scenario, its a massive object and slight change in the flight path may still result in hitting the ship somewhere else or exploding the warhead closer to the hull. So you really have to take the object out all the way at max distance.

 

[Basel]

why only gun system to intercept a hypersonic missile??

a combination of these systems after upgrading software & hardware as per requirement can be good point defense deterrent against any air threat.

TY-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Type 730 CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Chinese SD-10A Sky Dragon Medium-Range Surface To Air Missile System | Chinese Military Review