What's new

More credible J-XX Information

I am curious how Eurofighter and Rafale overcome the RCS issues created by using canards. Both if these fighters claim lower RCS, probably by using larger amounts of composites and RAM on canard surfaces. It might also be possible that they are just misquoting their actual RCS figures.

Regards,
Sapper
 
Thank you sir for the informative post. 1 last question, say the canard was non-movable, or non-"Shiftable"(Lifting-canard) from your source, and pretend the angles were the same as a standard plane's tail fins, THEN, would canards reflect off less signals back to the source or would it still pose a high RCS threat?
Try not to think of them as canards but as planar surfaces, for that is exactly what they are. Their functions are for flight controls and their positions made them 'canards'. Their physical relationships with the fuselage create corner reflectors on both sides of the aircraft, from the top and bottom views. If the radar signal's angle of approach (AoA) happened to be perpendicular to these planar surfaces, then the reflections will be direct. If not, then the reflections will be from corner reflectors. So it is irrelevant if they move or not.

Now take a look at the B-1...

c12e16473b71a63b300e44e21de6ee01.jpg


How many corner reflectors do you see? Remember...Top AND bottom views. Look at the canards and their angles to the fuselage. If two joined planar surfaces (or edges) do not create a 90deg corner, then even though there is a corner reflector, the reflection will not be back to source direction. That is why the vertical stabs for the F-18, F-22, F-35 and SR-71 are not perpendicular to the fuselages.

68a7ab81ef1cfb3cae3e1e8a6c4a9a86.jpg


For the SR-71 example above, the outer corner reflectors are greater than 90, the inner ones are less than 90. Ninety degrees corners will return the most energy back to source direction. Coastal marine safety reflectors are 90 deg in construction.

Safety Reflector
These 12 1/2" dia. reflectors are very common on many cruising boats. All models can be stored flat and assemble in minutes. Plates are held together by tough, injection molded corner latches. Assembled reflectors include a 1 1/4" (32mm) windage hole for reduced aerodynamic drag, which also allows for backstay mounting. Standard Echomaster: 13.2 square yards (12 square meters) of radar cross section in the 9-9.6 GHz X or 3cm radar band.
A 12 in diameter corner reflector create a 12 square meters RCS at the ghz bands.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II
According to November 2005 reports, the US Air Force states that the F-22 has the lowest RCS of any manned aircraft in the USAF inventory, with a frontal RCS of 0.0001~0.0002 m2, marble sized in frontal aspect. According to these reports, the F-35 is said to have an RCS equal to a metal golf ball, about 0.0015m2, which is about 5 to 10 times greater than the minimal frontal RCS of F/A-22. The F-35 has a lower RCS than the F-117 and is comparable to the B-2, which was half that of the older F-117. Other reports claim that the F-35 is said to have an smaller RCS headon than the F-22, but from all other angles the F-35 RCS is greater. By comparison, the RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2.
Now we have a body hundreds of times larger but have an RCS so small that over %90 of radar systems will discard as clutter. Until it is too late, of course.

RF Field Probe for F-35 RCS Measurement Facility - The Howland Company
Like the F-22, each production F-35 will undergo full RCS imaging measurements to verify that the aircraft's stealth characteristics meet specifications. Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Systems in Ft. Worth, where F-35 final assembly takes place, has built a dedicated facility for RCS acceptance testing. (This facility is similar, though somewhat larger, than the facility The Howland Company designed for Lockheed Martin to support F-22 production in Marietta, Georgia.) The special requirements of this unique testing scenario--a large quiet zone, handling full-scale aircraft in a production environment, and the need to accomplish testing quickly and with high confidence--have resulted in a unique, state-of-the-art production test facility. When F-35 production reaches peak rates, Lockheed Martin plans to cycle one aircraft per day through the Acceptance Test Facility.
Each US 'stealth' aircraft, not just design, but INDIVIDUAL aircraft, will be fully probed before delivery. Any aircraft that does not meet the low RCS specified will be investigated and corrected.

This is why these aircrafts are so expensive per unit. But losing a war is much more expensive. We have no problems with these information, just the exact figures are classified. Potential adversaries like China or Russia know what we are saying is true and they also know they are seriously behind US in this area. For every F-35 lost, our enemy will lose ten of their junks either in aircrafts or in vital ground equipments. So yes...By all means install all the canards they want.
 
Try not to think of them as canards but as planar surfaces, for that is exactly what they are. Their functions are for flight controls and their positions made them 'canards'. Their physical relationships with the fuselage create corner reflectors on both sides of the aircraft, from the top and bottom views. If the radar signal's angle of approach (AoA) happened to be perpendicular to these planar surfaces, then the reflections will be direct. If not, then the reflections will be from corner reflectors. So it is irrelevant if they move or not.

Now take a look at the B-1...

c12e16473b71a63b300e44e21de6ee01.jpg


How many corner reflectors do you see? Remember...Top AND bottom views. Look at the canards and their angles to the fuselage. If two joined planar surfaces (or edges) do not create a 90deg corner, then even though there is a corner reflector, the reflection will not be back to source direction. That is why the vertical stabs for the F-18, F-22, F-35 and SR-71 are not perpendicular to the fuselages.

68a7ab81ef1cfb3cae3e1e8a6c4a9a86.jpg


For the SR-71 example above, the outer corner reflectors are greater than 90, the inner ones are less than 90. Ninety degrees corners will return the most energy back to source direction. Coastal marine safety reflectors are 90 deg in construction.

Safety Reflector

A 12 in diameter corner reflector create a 12 square meters RCS at the ghz bands.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II

Now we have a body hundreds of times larger but have an RCS so small that over %90 of radar systems will discard as clutter. Until it is too late, of course.

RF Field Probe for F-35 RCS Measurement Facility - The Howland Company

Each US 'stealth' aircraft, not just design, but INDIVIDUAL aircraft, will be fully probed before delivery. Any aircraft that does not meet the low RCS specified will be investigated and corrected.

This is why these aircrafts are so expensive per unit. But losing a war is much more expensive. We have no problems with these information, just the exact figures are classified. Potential adversaries like China or Russia know what we are saying is true and they also know they are seriously behind US in this area. For every F-35 lost, our enemy will lose ten of their junks either in aircrafts or in vital ground equipments. So yes...By all means install all the canards they want.

Thanks, very informative! That cleared up the greys completely.
 
For those who can understand Chinese, watch this show:
h ttp://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1258796826837880
or this news:
h ttp://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200911/1123_340_1447055.shtml
[del the space in the link. I can not post any url since im a new user.]

The "4th " generation is going to be a modification of J-10, and it will not be the same class as F-22/35 are.
This is said during the latest(2009/11/21) interview with the PLAAF's speaker.
The 4th gen in China will be same class as Su-35.
 
For those who can understand Chinese, watch this show:
h ttp://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1258796826837880
or this news:
h ttp://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200911/1123_340_1447055.shtml
[del the space in the link. I can not post any url since im a new user.]

The "4th " generation is going to be a modification of J-10, and it will not be the same class as F-22/35 are.
This is said during the latest(2009/11/21) interview with the PLAAF's speaker.
The 4th gen in China will be same class as Su-35.

true,it's official news,china have no 4th gen project :bounce: only 3.5th :cheesy:继续韬光养晦,各位兄弟,大家不要再帮忙宣传“中国威胁论”了,别搞得MD继续增加军费,这样对中国安全反而更不利:china:
 
Last edited:
Sir Gambit thank you for the detailed info, but can you please go over how the Europeans have been able to reduce the RCS of EuroFighter and Rafale whom have canards.
 
Sir Gambit thank you for the detailed info, but can you please go over how the Europeans have been able to reduce the RCS of EuroFighter and Rafale whom have canards.
The word 'reduce' is somewhat ambiguous. Do you mean a reduction from an existing planform? Like what Boeing did with the F-15SE and the redesigned F-18? Or do you mean to create a planform from start with a specific RCS value in mind?

With the F-15SE, Boeing converted conformal fuel tanks to become weapons bay. Basically we covered up all the weapons related doo-dads that added to the the aircraft's base RCS figure to create the final RCS figure. Then we slightly angled the twin vertical stabs to eliminate those huge corner reflectors. Those modifications cannot be made unless a detailed study of the aircraft's current aerodynamics reveal there would be no adverse effects.

Then we can introduce material modifications like this example...

Reduction of the RCS of the leading edge of a conducting wing-shaped structure b
The radar cross section of the leading edge of a conducting wing-shaped structure is reduced by replacing part of the structure with a lossless dielectric material. The structure retains its original external shape, thereby ensuring that the aerodynamic properties are not altered by the structural changes needed to reduce the radar cross section.
The leading edges of flight control surfaces are, for the frontal aspect, the highest contributors of the RCS figure. Installing RAM will reduce the amount of energy that can be reflected off these leading edges. But RAM introduce its own complications such as thickness and bandwidths and is a different topic for now.

Active or passive -- canards ARE flight control surfaces and their locations make them the firsts of the flight control surfaces to contribute to the final RCS figure. An aircraft has the standard configuration of paired wings, horizonal stabs and a single vertical stab for five leading edges. Not counting intake leading edges or various communication antennas. Now add a pair of canards and you have seven. An inevitable increase in RCS. May be the design require canards, may be not.

On the other hand, the F-117's planform began in the opposite direction, that Lockheed effectively set down an RCS figure, or goal, and the design team must shape the aircraft in anyway to meet that figure.

F-117A: The XST
Irv Waaland, a Northrop designer knew that Northrop had a problem. Northrop's analysts had concluded that it was most important to reduce its vehicle's RCS from the nose and tail and the nose-on RCS-the view an adversary had in the critical head-on engagment-was more important than the rear aspect. It's XST design was a diamond with more sweep on the leading edges than the trailing edges. From the rear, it had low RCS as long as the radar was no more than 35 degrees off the tail.

But the DARPA requirement treated RCS by quadrants: The rear quadrant extended to 45 degrees on either side of the tail, thereby including the parts of the airframe where the Northrop design's RCS spiked. Waaland could not solve the problem by increasing the sweep angle of the trailing edges, the aircraft would become uncontrollable.
So now we have Lockheed and DARPA essentially treat the RCS figure as the dominant factor for the design. If Lockheed at that time could not meet that RCS figure requirement and even if the final design proved to be flight capable, there would be no 'stealth' aircraft at all. Up until the F-117, aircraft designs have always placed aerodynamics as dominant factor. The quote above had Northrop but the requirement was applicable to all competitors.

Could the F-117 have canards? Yes, and they would have the same radical sweep angle as the rest of the other flight control surfaces on the final F-117 planform. But Lockheed decided to eliminate a contributor to the aircraft's total RCS -- the canards -- and have the aircraft use a higher than average take-off/landing speed instead.

F-117A Nighthawk Stealth Fighter Attack Aircraft - Air Force Technology
The elevons do not act as flaps to reduce the rate of descent for touchdown, so the landing speed of the F-117A is high, at about 180mph to 190mph, and a drag parachute is used.
The F-16's landing speed is about 20-30mph less, for example.

The F-117's sharper sweep angle for all flight control surfaces was for RCS, not aerodynamics, purposes. Lockheed succeeded where Northrop failed, but you must understand that Northrop did not failed by much. For all we know, Northrop may have missed the required RCS figure by a razor thin margin and their design may have carried more weapons than Lockheed's design. If Lockheed decided that the higher than average take-off/landing speed was unacceptable and installed canards or reduce the wing sweep angle, we may be looking at Northrop's F-117 instead of Lockheed's.

The Eurofighter's and the Rafale's lower than average RCS was from paper inception, not from modifications of a current flying design. As such, the designers were able to offset the canards' contribution to the total RCS by partially recessing externally mounted weapons and having sharper than average wing sweep angle...

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector.
I am not going to discuss the Rafale's Thales Spectra system as that is not part of the base airframe and planform of the aircraft. The Spectra can be turned off or removed whereas flight control surfaces are structural requirements.

Canards offer much positives in terms of flight controls and maneuverability and we have studied them using the F-15.

F-15 S/MTD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Combined Canard, Elevator and Nozzle effect: With its highly advanced flight control software, the S/MTD coordinates the movement of the forward canards to give up-force, and the tailplanes and nozzles produce a down-force when maneuvering. This produces a pitching moment larger than that possible with the conventional elevator-only configuration. As a result, maneuverability is far improved.
But canards are contributors to an aircraft's total RCS and unlike weapons whose RCS contributions can be eliminated the canards' contributions are permanent. They have to be part of the original design conceptions and it will take very creative planforms to mask, not eliminate, their contributions.
 
I am curious how Eurofighter and Rafale overcome the RCS issues created by using canards. Both if these fighters claim lower RCS, probably by using larger amounts of composites and RAM on canard surfaces. It might also be possible that they are just misquoting their actual RCS figures.

Regards,
Sapper

The canard info usually presented is of Sukhoi family,
in which case it is true that it presents a larger cross section area,
BECAUSE
Sukhoi is a tail heavy plane which means the center or gravity is further behind the physical center of the plane.
Just to keep this aircraft flying in a straight line, the canards have to be moved to a considerable negative angle of attack, thus providing the radar cross section area.

The Euro-Fighter and Typhoon, Rafaele, J-10, are not tail heavy planes and do not need their canards to be at negative AoA.

Let me know if you want to know why Sukhoi is tail heavy, and why it is constructed as it is.
:sniper:
 
true,it's official news,china have no 4th gen project :bounce: only 3.5th :cheesy:继续韬光养晦,各位兄弟,大家不要再帮忙宣传“中国威胁论”了,别搞得MD继续增加军费,这样对中国安全反而更不利:china:

Ohhh U disappointed me!!

I was hoping that I would get to see a stealth gen fighter from China soon.

CGI looked really cool.
 
.
Just to keep this aircraft flying in a straight line, the canards have to be moved to a considerable negative angle of attack, thus providing the radar cross section area.



:sniper:

The SU-27 and SU-35 have no problems flying in a strait line and they dont have canards.
 

Back
Top Bottom