Israeli FM still defiant on apology, points to US as example

[Ottoman-Turk]

which isreali soldier got killed

It's useful because it forestalls possible investigation into his own criminal liability or political incompetence.

A Turkish apology to Israel for empowering uncontrollable terrorists who sought an opportunity to torture and kill Israeli soldiers engaged in peaceful and legal blockade duties would not be out of order.

 

[Solomon2]

News

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The transfer of the Turkish food donation to Gaza through Kerem Shalom

Today (Wednesday) a Turkish food donation including three trucks that crossed through Kerem Shalom into the Gaza Strip took place. The humanitarian aid included 60 tons of food and basic supplies. The trucks escorted the head of the Turkish Red Crescent workers in the Gaza Strip.

Date: 06.03.13 [March 6, 2013]

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Kerem Shalom returned yesterday to full activity after a few days closed due to repeated violations of Hamas that were expressed in a rocket firing from the Gaza Strip to Ashkelon as well as firing at a military vehicle by the security fence in Israel. Hamas decided two days ago to replace the contractor working on the Palestinian side of Kerem Shalom and collects a sum of 170 NIS for each truck passing through. Due to the Israeli and Palestinian Authority's opposition to replace the contractor, the Kerem Shalom crossing did not operate although over 400 truckloads of goods and equipment from Israel to the Gaza Strip were coordinated.

Today, as part of the crossing's operation, the arrival of more than 400 trucks into Gaza from Israel was coordinate, out of which three trucks were accompanied by the head of the Turkish Red Crescent. The 3 trucks included 60 tons of food and food in closed packages.

This is the first time since the Turkish flotilla to the Gaza coast, that the Turkish government sends aid to citizens of the Gaza Strip with Israeli recognition and coordination, through the port of Ashdod and Kerem Shalom.

The Turkish donation was made possible to transfer with hard staff work in the COGAT headquarters and coordination by the Gaza CLA.​

As noted in this article on the matter, "Israel continuously allows humanitarian aid into Gaza, despite Hamas’s claims that there is a “siege” on the region. Israel has approved internationally funded and monitored projects in Gaza."

With the transit of these supplies through Israel, Turkey accepts Israel's point that while under limited blockade proposed shipments to Gaza must be subject to Israeli approval, followed by inspection of the shipment if Israeli authorities so desire.

This event may mark the end of the Mavi Marmara affair - not with a bang, but with a scarcely-noticed whisper.

 

[atatwolf]

Jews should apologize and pay money.

The most important part is apology of course. It will be a moral victory for us.

I believe they will do this sooner or later.

 

[Solomon2]

Jews should apologize and pay money.

The most important part is apology of course. It will be a moral victory for us.

I believe they will do this sooner or later.

If you could stand up for Israel and support what they did and how they did it that would be a TRUE victory for superior morals; after all, what Erdogan demanded was nothing less that Israel and its Jews should apologize and stop protecting themselves from deadly attacks by terrorists. It seems it will be a long time before most Turks realize how Erdogan, with his effective control over the news coverage, manipulated their loyalties and emotions.

 

[Archdemon]

Jews should apologize and pay money.

The most important part is apology of course. It will be a moral victory for us.

I believe they will do this sooner or later.

Keep dreaming, and begging...

 

[atatwolf]

If you could stand up for Israel and support what they did and how they did it that would be a TRUE victory for superior morals; after all, what Erdogan demanded was nothing less that Israel and its Jews should apologize and stop protecting themselves from deadly attacks by terrorists. It seems it will be a long time before most Turks realize how Erdogan, with his effective control over the news coverage, manipulated their loyalties and emotions.

I'm not a fan of Erdogan but the people on the ship weren't terrorist. They were Turks although I don't approve of their aggresiveness. Israeli army boarded the ship on international waters and it is not allowed to do so. Israel is not above the law, so in principle Israel commited an act of war. Either it will apologize or the relations will freeze. There is no excuse for attacking the ship of your allies. If you remember Israel also attacked American ship as you know(Israel also should apologize for that too!!!). Israel thinks it can attack anybody and get away with it. Turkey&USA has always been a great ally of Israel and it doesn't deserve to be treated like this.

Keep dreaming, and begging...

You keep begging and dreaming. One day Israel will apologize. Israel already hints at this and government officials of Israel already said they should have apologized long time ago. So it will happen!

 

[Solomon2]

I'm not a fan of Erdogan but the people on the ship weren't terrorist -

You need to do more research.

Israeli army boarded the ship on international waters and it is not allowed to do so.

A LOT more research.

Israel is not above the law, so in principle Israel commited an act of war.

A serious charge - and a false one.

Turkey...has always been a great ally of Israel and it doesn't deserve to be treated like this.

I never thought Turkey - or at least Erdogan - should have been treated so easily by the Israelis. However, if the Israelis pressed really hard and pointed out that Erdogan's actions undermined both international law and Turkish democracy that could have been seized on by the Turkish military to overthrow the government. The Americans, if not the Israelis, didn't want that - something I think may have been a mistake.

 

[Neptune]

Well,

It was all Israel's fault, just as it was ours when we bombed about 30 fuvcked smugglers as terrorist in Iraq. The things should be done are these;

1- Israel should apologise and do what it requires in International Laws.

2- Our gov't should stop being the Gendarmerie of Middle East. Even Israel is not doin that.

3- Turkey was Israel's top Muslim ally. Also number 2 in worldwide in my opinion.
And Israel was our number 2 ally in both military and defence

4- bad relations effected both of us very bad. We should start relations with eachother now.


In my opinion Israel lost a close key ally. And Turkey lost it's top ME ally (I'm not crazy neither if you don't think so, I ain't give a damn. But that's the reality) . There was dozens of sections we were co-operating.

 

[Solomon2]

Israel should apologise and do what it requires in International Laws.

According to the Palmer Report Israel was in full compliance with international law. An Israeli apology would be the equivalent of Israel saying that terrorists have the right to attack Jews and Jews have no right to resist.

Our gov't should stop being the Gendarmerie of Middle East. Even Israel is not doin that...Turkey was Israel's top Muslim ally.

Don't you get it? By staging the Mavi Marmara scenario and blowing off Israel Erdogan freed his hands to meddle throughout the Middle East; the Israeli gov't would have objected at the time with Erdogan's meddling in Syria.

And Israel was our number 2 ally in both military and defence

Which is why Erdogan had to dump Israel under conditions that made Israel look like the aggressor against Turks.

There was dozens of sections we were co-operating.

The MM affair was the perfect scheme to halt cooperation between Israel and Turkey. That's what Erdogan wanted, to court influence throughout a changing Middle East - and deepen his party's appeal to radicals - by throwing Israel to the dogs and saying, hey, be nice to me, I'm an anti-Zionist, too! He could count on old-style patriots supporting him as long as he could claim it was Israelis attacking innocent Turks - which he could do because the Turkish-language media is insular and Turkish media with English output still would have to promote Erdogan to preserve their sources and privileges.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

According to the Palmer Report Israel was in full compliance with international law. An Israeli apology would be the equivalent of Israel saying that terrorists have the right to attack Jews and Jews have no right to resist.

The UN Palmer report stated that the Gaza blockade legal, which gives Israel the right to enforce the blockade on international waters. Turkey's foreign minister stated it was going to challenge the legality of the blockade in the international court of Justice.

There is more to note from this report. A summary (I tried to highlight some of the important parts):

On 2 August 2010, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon announced that the U.N. would conduct an investigation of the incident. Geoffrey Palmer, former Prime Minister of New Zealand, presided over the committee.[257][258] The four-member panel also included Álvaro Uribe, outgoing Colombian president, as vice chair, and one representative each from Israel and Turkey. The panel started its work on 10 August 2010. The terms of reference for the 'method of work' of the inquiry were given by Ban Ki Moon they are outlined in the report as follows: "The Panel is not a court. It was not asked to make determinations of the legal issues or to adjudicate on liability ... The Panel was required to obtain its information from the two nations primarily involved in its inquiry, Turkey and Israel, and other affected States ... the limitation is important. It means that the Panel cannot make definitive findings either of fact or law. The information for the Panel's work came primarily through its interactions with the Points of Contact designated by Israel and Turkey."[259] In a statement, Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said the country had nothing to hide and that it was in its interest that the truth of the events come to light throughout the world.[260]

The report was published on 2 September 2011[261][262] after being delayed, reportedly to allow Israel and Turkey to continue reconciliation talks.[263] The commission determined Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip to be legal,[264] but stated that the "decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable." The commission questioned the motivations of the Flotilla stating that "There exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly IHH".[265] The commission recognized that the IDF were met with "organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers" upon boarding the vessel and therefore force was necessary for purposes of self-defense,[266] but stated that "the loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable".[5]

Of those killed, the report noted, "no evidence has been provided to establish that any of the deceased were armed with lethal weapons". It further noted that "at least one of those killed, Furkan Dogan, was shot at extremely close range. Mr. Dogan sustained wounds to the face, back of the skull, back and left leg. That suggests he may already have been lying wounded when the fatal shot was delivered, as suggested by witness accounts to that effect."[267] The lack of satisfactory explanation was pointed out:

"Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel."[268]

In regards to the Gaza blockade, the commission writes:

"Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza...The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law."[266]

The report was also critical of the flotilla, describing it as "reckless". Turkey was criticized as well for not doing more to persuade flotilla participants to avoid armed conflict with Israeli soldiers.[266] Finally, the report presented the following as rapprochement, i.e., for the re-establishment of cordial relations between Turkey and Israel:

"An appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of the incident in light of its consequences. Israel should offer payment for the benefit of the deceased and injured victims and their families...Turkey and Israel should resume full diplomatic relations..."

Israel's ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, said "We think it was a fair and balanced report", and that Israel would not apologize to Turkey.[269] The Israeli Prime Minister's Office stated that Israel has adopted the report, except for its conclusions regarding the use of force in the flotilla raid.[270] Turkey criticized the report for accepting Israel's blockade as legal, and Turkey's president Abdullah Gul said his country considered the report "null and void".[271] Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmed Davutoglu said the UN hadn't endorsed the Palmer report and that Turkey was going to challenge the legality of the blockade in the International Court of Justice.[272]

Quoted from Wikipedia: Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is correct that the raid happened on international waters, but it was legal for Israel because the blockade of Gaza is legal according to the report.

 

[Solomon2]

It is correct that the raid happened on international waters, but it was legal for Israel because the blockade of Gaza is legal according to the report.

Turks may also want to examine the Turkish government's "prosecution" of IDF officers. What particularly caught my eye was the prosecutor brief dismissing the damning video evidence with the claim that eyewitness reports were equally important. Can anyone find a police official in Turkey who believes that eyewitness reports outweigh conflicting video evidence?

 

[atatwolf]

Solomon2, you have an excuse for everything. It feels like what ever evidence we provide you will just find another excuse to back-up Israel. Really disgusting behavior. First you ask me for evidence and then when you are cornered you switch to something else. Did Israel attack the ship on international waters or not?

You need to do more research.

A LOT more research.

A serious charge - and a false one.

Look at what you say. Do you say this everything you are cornered? Don't forget that Israel also attacked US ship and did something similar to you.
USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop being boneless and support the side who is right. Don't support one side because "they are your friends".

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

Turks may also want to examine the Turkish government's "prosecution" of IDF officers. What particularly caught my eye was the prosecutor brief dismissing the damning video evidence with the claim that eyewitness reports were equally important. Can anyone find a police official in Turkey who believes that eyewitness reports outweigh conflicting video evidence?

There is also forensic's involved, and it depends on what the video shows. I need to see the video and read the reason cited for dismissing the video, to form an opinion on if I think it's understandable to dismiss the video or not.

The UN report says that Israel didn't provide enough material to explain the forensic evidence on the deceased that were shot multiple times. It's fair to assume the writers of this report also had access to the video you are referring to.