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Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

Fair point but why do so man Pakistanis always assume that non-Pakistani Muslim share the same enthusiasm for Islam and the Ummah when they all do not? It makes Pakistanis look retarded and undignified who are looking for acceptance and validation from non-Pakistanis......... :disagree:

You know me I don't, people need to take each other at fave value, just having a general nostalgic view of Muslim nations is enough. 3 of our strongest friends are secular or even atheist countries.

Just say india when nothing else works. My bad I shouldnt have replied to a low life in the first place.

Don't talk to your father that way.
 
You know me I don't, people need to take each other at fave value, just having a general nostalgic view of Muslim nations is enough. 3 of our strongest friends are secular or even atheist countries.

I know you don't but most Pakistanis do. Why is that? Pakistan's closest ally is China who is theologically as far away from Islam as possible whereas afghanistan a supposedly Muslim country is an enemy nation of Pakistan.
 
I know you don't but most Pakistanis do. Why is that?

We are divided like most societies and countries, the right wing is more religious and focused on Muslim countries, but we also have a growing secular middle class, who don't see the world in binary terms.

They hate india are nationalists, but are not overly religious. As we become more prosperous this class will only increase
 
We are divided like most societies and countries, the right wing is more religious and focused on Muslim countries, but we also have a growing secular middle class, who don't see the world in binary terms.

They hate india are nationalists, but are not overly religious. As we become more prosperous this class will only increase

I sincerely hope so.........:-)
 
After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I
My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.

What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.

Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??

Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.

But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.

Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.

Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.
 
One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims.

It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships.

I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.

But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.
 
My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.

What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.

Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??

Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.

But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.

Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.

Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.

Bro, you are a legend!

Also, what Pakistanis need to start realising is that non-Pakistani Muslims do NOT share the same enthusiasm for Islam and Islamic Unity/Ummah that Pakistanis do. They in fact feel the exact opposite. Arabs, Iranians, Turks, afghans, Somalians etc are all HIGHLY nationalistic. It's about time Pakistanis did the same. Then and ONLY then will we move forward and will stop being pawns for foreigners.

One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims.

It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships.

I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.

But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.


What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.
 
there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset
The answer lies in something very simple. In the city you live in go take a drive through Pakistani majority area and see if anything is peddled as Pakistani. You will struggle. Instead Arab, Desi, Turkish, Indian, Asian, Apna will be used.

It's like a Pakistan is a dirty name. Our own people don't even use it. Others use it but only to heap contempt or denigrate us.

Bro, you are a legend!

Also, what Pakistanis need to start realising is that non-Pakistani Muslims do NOT share the same enthusiasm for Islam and Islamic Unity/Ummah that Pakistanis do. They in fact feel the exact opposite. Arabs, Iranians, Turks, afghans, Somalians etc are all HIGHLY nationalistic. It's about time Pakistanis did the same. Then and ONLY then will we move forward and will stop being pawns for foreigners.




What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.
10/10. If you have followed me over the last ten years on PDF you will know I have been banging on about this year after year.
 
My friend I have been saying this for ten years since I joined PDF in 2012. I am glad slowly this issue finally is coming up for consideration. That is why I have always talked of history of Pakistan and what makes our lands unique. We are custodians of 8,000 crucible called the Indus basin from which rose civilizations that stood tall in this world.

What are Turks? Let me be honest about them. They are just a bastardized people. Yes bastardized people. The idea of Turk as a people is as artificial as plastic bag. Genetically probably less then 3% of Turkey carries the Turk gene. This is a FACT. In fact I believe genetic research looking at the Turkish people is frowned on by the state because it would reveal the fact that most Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are found in Central Asia, in places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or Uighurs of China etc.

Peel away all the fairy tale Turks have been brainwashed what are they? Well they are just a bunch of Arabs, Iranians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds with legacy of rape of Serb, Bosnian, Russian, Circasians etc. All these disparate people were brainwashed into trhinking they are Turks and that they all migrated from Central Asia. Wtf??

Ottoman Empire brough nothing new to this world. It was essentially just warlordism on steriods. They roded the Greek, Persian and Levant Arab civilizations. If you look at all those great sites in Istanbul most are just Greek base with edifice Perso-Arabic on top.

But the success of Turkey has been to meld all these bastarized people - white, brown, blond, brunete, into the idea that they are all Turks. This they have done a spectaculat job.

Pakistan has everything. We have history, we have heritage that we let Gangus to our east claim as their all the while we ourselves ignore it. We have orphaned our people from our land and heritage. Time to own it and scream 'we are Pakistani with 8,000 years history'. We have the world one of earluest civilizations, we gave the world the mathematical zero.

Instead of licking outsiders. Be proud of our people, our lands.
In fact, there is no reason for a Pakistani to be insecure at all, of course for the reasons you have described above, but even if we consider today's terms and disregard distant history.

We have the 9th most powerful military, the only Islamic nuclear power, and have proudly defended ourselves against a much larger enemy, with a very rich and diverse culture in each region.

There is no room for insecurity. This is more of an identity crisis for people not knowing who they are, so they ride off other countries, as well as foolish political statements and naivety.
 
I think you people read far too much into non issues. A handful of people tweet something and we become besties4eva. The next day a handful of people tweet something and we become frenemies.

Chill.

There is plurality of opinion amongst countries, including our own. Opinions shift with time and alter with events. It's no big deal either way.

Ultimately relations between people are built on shared interests followed by shared values as a distant second.

If you don't present yourself as an asshole and are tolerant of what other people think even if you disagree with them - you'll be fine and so will your relations with people.
 
In fact, there is no reason for a Pakistani to be insecure at all, of course for the reasons you have described above, but even if we consider today's terms and disregard distant history.
I went back 8,000 years but that is not to say nothing happened since. In fact every century or era saw great events on the Indus basin all the way to present.

I delight in travel in Pakistan particulary since the spawling motorway network has made driving joy. Every corner of the country has some story, some heritage that will blow you away. On top of that the beauty of the people is beyond belief. I saw Kochi nomads south of Isakhel [home of the famous singer] and what a sight. What a sight. Grand is the only word. You find this across all of Pakistan.
 
What is wrong is the lack of Pakistani nationalism and patriotism. It creates weak, insecure and unproductive people.
Pakistani nationalism needs to be combined with ethnic nationalism, no matter how hard you try, there is no denying the incredibly polar society in terms of conservatism, phenotypical looks (ethnicity), and culture which exists in each region.

The solution is not to force everyone under a single identity and disregard a massive part of who they are, it's to combine them together so people can feel proud for both. Otherwise it causes people to lash out with ethno-nationalist movements (sometimes armed).

More provincial autonomy and cultural + linguistic preservation which can be mixed together with the idea of Pakistan.

People should be proud to call themselves a Pashtun from Pakistan, a Punjabi from Pakistan, a Sindhi from Pakistan, etc etc.

This is the only compromise otherwise your world will come crashing down trying to force everyone under a single blanket term like Pakistani.

@jus_chillin What do you think?
 
Well we are Muslims
This is the source of the fuckin problem. So is 1.6 billion people and found in over 60 countries, five continents on earth. This is like saying Pakistani's are people as if rest of the world is animals and only us are people.

And where does this leave the Christian, Sikh, Hindus, Kalash etc of Pakistan. In your account a Negro Muslim in New York Bronx like Mike Tyson is a Pakistani but a the PAF ace Group Captain Cecil Chaudry is not a Pakistani.
 

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