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Homosexuality in India

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Salim, can you not answer a post without bringing Pakistan into this?

You are our "in house" India hand, and hence I am surprised that you think Calcutta is in Chandigrah. Weren't you the one who posted that Calcutta is the second most populated city in the world?

Few questions come to mind:

1. Do you research before posting or do you just post because of a compulsive motivation?

2. Do you ever see an atlas or bone up about a country that obsesses your inner self, for whatever be the compulsion?

The claim that Calcutta is in Chandigrah is hilarious since a child who has studied geography would know the difference. Furthermore, a glance at Indian subcontinental history would indicate that Calcutta was once the capital of British India. Of course, that is general history and not specific interest history! But then general history is the foundation or else one would not be able to understand specific interest history because then such knowledge would be flawed.

Yes, my geography of India needs attention. The capital of British India? No doubts you'll mention Tagore soon.. It's clear you could talk about this all night.

There is no madri gras in Calcutta to the best of the knowledge of those who live there. I live in Calcutta.

Carnival

Rafiquel, who was instrumental in setting up one in 1993, says they reached out to 5,000 gay men in the state within three years.

The government says public morals need to be protected

Two years ago, he organised a same love mardi gras in Calcutta. Since then it has become a regular yearly event.

Plays on gay issues are staged, members debate community issues, and books and journals are sold at this merry fortnight-long carnival.

It climaxes with a colourful march through the streets of Calcutta - last year as many 300 gays, lesbians and transgender people participated in the march.

state of the union in britain 5966

Since you live in Calcutta, could you confirm this "Proud-to-be-gay" Calcuttian march is held every year in honor of all things mano?

But then I do agree that I have not the keen interest in the gays as apparently you have or display.

But then, each to his own preference!

Indeed, notwithstanding Indian laws, none really bother about anyone's sexuality, unless it affects the person individually.

This is it though. Why allow gay mardi gras carnivals to go ahead, and then enforce an anti gay law that criminalizes homosexuality? Is it just to try and con the world, or to try and fit in with the more westerly view on homosexuality?

I am no expert on the issue, nor do I have your deep insight on the subject, but from the media one learns that homosexuality is an universal phenomenon and not India centric.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is an universal phenomenon. Non existent elsewhere?

One does not quite understand what aspect has caught your interest in this subject and the posts.

Dude, stop taking this the wrong way. Why criminalize homosexuality, but then allow gay marches to take place. It sounds like India still hasn't shrugged off colonial mentality and needs dictating to.

Erotica?

Or some other interest that is burning a fire in your belly?

I am sure you have the Arab saying on the subject, more so since that the lineage that is being claimed vociferously in the thread of the history of civilisation that manifested what is known as Pakistan as claimed in some of the threads here.

BTW, isn't there a TV personality in Pakistan who is a rage out there? Obviously, one can understand the interest some have on the subject.

It does show that Pakistan, inspite of having enforceable religious laws which are very categorical about the issue, such TV shows are allowed. Therefore, one can say that even in Pakistan, the people and the government understand the foibles of man, as they do in India!

The world and countries in the world have the same problems or issues. There is nothing unique about any country. All are the same. They just speak different languages and have different cultures.

Why bring Pakistan into this? The difference between Pakistan and India is that Pakistan criminalizes homosexuality, and does not allow gay pride marches or mardi gras to go ahead. There is no cloaking of Pakistan government's stance. Indian laws are (trying to be) hidden by giving the image of homosexual tolerance through gay mardi gras festivities. Why allow the regular Calcutta gay carnival to take place, for example?
 
You have a big issue with India not implementing the law and allowing Gay marches ?. The law is for such practices only not about marches.
Law takes its own course when approached by aggrieved party.

First you start a topic after reading from a gay site find some reference about India and call it research and post topic here sounding as a wise person. Now you bring in religion. Obviously you would get replies which you do not like to read.

Secondly you are too embarrassed to discuss about homosexuality in your country. Salim did mention about the TV personality from your country.
 
Dude, RR, make whatever you want of it. The fact is that the law is rarely implemented, and society hasn't yet reached a consensus on whether to uphold it or do away with it.
The debate is still going on.
In such circumstances, the best method is to implement it selectively in areas where it is not tolerated.

Now call it colonial mentality or victorian mentality or islamic influence or hyprocricy or whatever you want. Have fun.
 
RR,

Unlike what is the perception that one wants to project about Pakistan, in actuality is way forward that what one may want to believe.

Ghilmans are also OK.

Here it is:
Gay Pakistan - 'less inhibited than West'


Throughout South Asia, homosexuality has been a taboo subject. But there are signs in some areas that gay people are now becoming more open in their behaviour. In this column a gay man in Pakistan talks about the advantages of being gay there compared to the West. He prefers to remain anonymous.

It is all too common to hear examples of the repression of sexuality and oppression of sexual minorities in South Asia.

Demonstration in Pakistan
Open displays of straight and gay sexuality are taboo in Pakistan
But the problem with sweeping generalisations about sexuality, or anything else for that matter, is the exceptions.

I am one such exception - a gay man who grew up in Pakistan, became aware of his sexuality while studying in the US, had most of his early experiences of love and sex there, and yet decided to come back home to Pakistan.

It will surprise many when I say that I actually feel more comfortable about myself while living here than I was in the West.

It was not always so of course. Before my return, I felt quite aggrieved when my straight brother downplayed my apprehensions about being gay in Pakistan.


I cannot remember a single occasion in almost 10 years that I have felt threatened with regards to my sexuality in Pakistan

Have Your Say
It really was not a problem, he suggested. How insensitive and naive of him, I thought.

My brother has won the point since though. While I maintain discretion in many respects, I have come out to most of my family, with their loving support.

I have also come out to all my friends, and rarely meet anyone aggressively hostile to gay individuals.

I have lived with a lover independently without anyone raising an eyebrow.

I have attended gay parties more uninhibited than any I have seen in the West.

'Differently configured'

In fact, I cannot remember a single occasion in almost 10 years that I have felt threatened with regards to my sexuality in Pakistan.

An entirely unrepresentative experience to be sure, as far as the experience of a majority of Pakistanis is concerned.

But there is no representative sample that I can think of.

Donkey and cart in Pakistan
Pakistan has 'conservative religious and cultural attitudes'
Sexuality itself is so much more differently configured in Pakistan than in the West - which is where the language of the sexuality debate comes from.

This is especially true in terms of people's perceptions of their identity and behaviour, in terms of class, with regards to family and religious obligations.

I would not for a moment suggest that it is easy being gay in Pakistan.

Homosexual acts are illegal, and conservative religious and cultural attitudes mean many gay people are afraid to openly acknowledge their sexuality.

They face ostracism by their families if they do. But in a sense the American military's approach of "don't ask, don't tell" is applied throughout this society.

'Taboo matter'

True, there is a fine line between discretion and suffocating silence. But being straight is not that much easier, and is in fact sometimes more difficult when it comes to physical relationships.

What is perhaps closer to the truth is that overt expression of sexuality itself - both gay and straight - is a taboo matter in Pakistani society.

But whereas heterosexual courting and coupling is all too obvious, gay socialising can take place without attracting as much attention - with brazen abandon in a society where many forms of overt physical and emotional intimacy between members of the same gender are tolerated and even admired.

The opposite holds true for such public expression between members of the opposite sex.

Just as everywhere else, however, things are changing, driven by the exposure to information via technology.

The internet, satellite television and films all combine to give a new generation of gay men and women context to their emotions, a sense of identity, an outlet for expression and perhaps most importantly, the ability to communicate with each other.

No wonder, then, that I met my boyfriend on the internet.

This debate is now closed. Thank you for your comments.

Your comments:

Who are we to judge? And when did sexual orientation became one of the five pillars of Islam?
Kashif Iqbal, Norway

After spending a couple of years in the USA (an open society), I believe that homosexuality can never be defended. The Lord has made men for women and women for men.
Samee, Pakistan

I dare him to come out in public and announce himself as gay. He is accepted in his social class because the elite don't mingle with the commoners.
Waqas Khan, USA

I think this guy is kidding himself. I don't believe many people in Pakistan are comfortable knowing a gay person. Any normal family would have disowned him immediately. I was born and brought up in the UK and there are thousands of Pakistanis where I stay. Without a doubt I am certain nobody would accept a gay person into Pakistani society here so how can it ever be acceptable in a conservative Muslim nation such as Pakistan? Also as homosexuality is forbidden in Islam how can this guy still call himself a Muslim?
Tariq, UK

To say that gay socialising is easier in Pakistan because physical intimacy between men is not questioned the way it is in the West, is living in a fool's paradise. If this person seriously believes that close contact among men equals acceptance of homosexuals then he is fooling himself. And he knows this, because if he felt homosexuality is acceptable, he would come out with it to more people, not just to his "liberal" friends and family. Acceptability of homosexuals may be on the rise, but it is because people feel socially pressured to do so, just like some people in the West are pressured to be tolerant towards minorities.
Aamir, UK

There is no problem in being gay as far as I am concerned but there is some thing wrong in a Muslim being gay. It is not allowed in Islam and is surely against the laws of nature; it is one of the signs of the end of the world. I don't think you remain a Muslim if you indulge in anything like that. As much as you have right to choose, I would never appreciate anything like this.
Manz, UK

People keep saying that homosexuality is a sin or not allowed in Islam. But can someone post the actual passages where it explicitly forbids it? Manz thinks it is a sign of the end of the world. However homosexuality has been going on since time began. I am gay and I am a Muslim. Why can't I be both? I would never choose to be this way, why would anyone? I have stopped asking Allah why he made me this way, because I have accepted that I am his creation, and not the spawn of the devil!

It would be nice if other Pakistanis also realised that fact, instead of hiding their intolerance, fear, hatred, and general nastiness behind the mask of religion. My friend, who like me was born in the UK but of Pakistani heritage, had a mixed experience of coming out to his family, it was his family in the countryside in Pakistan that were fine with it, though never talk about it. But the self-righteous middle class family in the city, along with the family here weren't too keen to say the least.
Ahmed, UK

It's surprising to hear of family and friends to be accepting of this person's sexual preference. Homosexuality is a sin in all the three major faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). It's no secret that Pakistan has its share of gays and lesbians but any act to look for acceptance will be disastrous, since Quranic Laws cannot be changed for a few people.
KM Sheikh, USA

I could go on and say that Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, but that would probably kill this dialogue. I do not support or condone homosexuality, but at the same time I feel that God is going to be the final judge. I think this guy's experiences are a lot different from what an average Pakistani's experiences would be. The average Pakistani is the one living in a village, working day and night, maybe even half-educated.

Not someone whose family is open and welcoming enough to accept their son coming out as gay. Sounds more like a privileged family with a lot of money to send their sons to the US for studies. Maybe religion does not have any place in their hearts or homes, and that's why he's feeling accepted. It's his social circle specifically, not the country.
Ali, USA

In conservative Islamic societies, where a large number of women observe "Pardha" (or veil in front of males who are not immediate family), homosexuality is historically prevalent; but it is never flaunted, as we see in western societies. Late Molly Kaye's (MM Kaye) novel Far Pavilions quotes an Afghan song:
There is a boy, across the river
With his bottom like a peach
But alas, I can't swim.
Suren Sukhtankar, USA

I am straight but not narrow. I agree mostly that the West is obsessed with people's sexuality while most people in the East, sex is private, very private. It is not anybody's business. I remember when I was in school in US, in the land of the free, what I wore, how I spoke, where I touched others and when but then I was immediately scrutinised by people around me seeking to know my sexuality. Who the heck cared, I thought. In that sense, the land of the free and individual rights, has very little of it in the West.
Kalai, Malaysia

More power to him. Gay people are born like that, no-one chooses to be gay or become gay. I believe that gay people need our support. It was nice to read that in Pakistan gay people can live a good life too.
Farva Khan, Islamabad, Pakistan

This guy is living in a fantasy world. Being gay in Pakistan... wow, he had the courage to tell his family and somehow they supported him (I am not sure if the are followers of any religion or not, but it's forbidden in Islam, just as it is in Christianity, just as it is in Judaism).

I am sure he is the subject of jokes to all that know about his sexual orientation, this not being my personal view but a lifelong experience of living in Pakistan. Homosexuality is a taboo in Pakistan; it's looked down upon to the extent to docile boycott of the gay person. Nothing is changing in Pakistan in this regard; do not take this article as a guideline for the Pakistani's society's take on homosexuality.

This person, and the editor for that matter, has serious lack of information in this regard. Pakistan is not a small country and most of the population is conservative. I really cannot think of any city in Pakistan (other than a few corners of the liberal Islamabad) where this guy can announce his homosexuality.
Saad, Pakistan

Men loving particularly younger men is pretty common in most part of Pakistan. Maybe it is due to Muslim belief that God has promised to those who will earn to go to heaven will have not only "Hoors" (virgin women) but a choice for what it is called "Ghilmans" (young beautiful boys).
Alex Ijaz, USA

An important factor that our gay friend forgot to highlight was his social class. Similar to the western world, it is becoming quite fashionable for the eastern elite to display an open acceptance and patronage for the gay. And, the reason why the author finds "gay socialising" easier in Pakistan is because half the time people don't know its happening.

It gets camouflaged between the Punjabi hugs that you see men giving on road sides and the happy-go-lucky hand-in-hand swinging of two best friends. Ignorance is not acceptance. And ours is an extremely intolerant society. Yet, I must add, every human being has a right to life and freedom of living. Let's leave moral judgements to Divinity!
Qizilbash, Pakistan

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Gay Pakistan - 'less inhibited than West'
 
RR,

While it might bring glee and with false superciliousness to ridicule others, it is also important to know what is the position of the view of his own people, civilisation and religion.

To me what someone does or does not is not material.

What galls me is smug superciliousness that gives a false sense of bravado to go hammer and tongs and without knowing how one is exposing oneself.

I would not have posted it, but it is time that one stops and thinks and let this help towards that end.

Is washing dirty linen the badge of one's existence.

It can rebound!

With great regret and apologies to my Moslem friends, I quote from an Islamic scholar:


Islamic Heaven


By Syed Kamran Mirza
mirza.syed@gmail.com
November 12 , 2005

Some so called modern Islamic apologists often try to fool the western infidels that Islam is a very simple religion and Islam never lures Muslims with erotic heavenly pleasures. Nothing could be furthest from the truth then this ridiculous claim of Islamists. Let’s examine very closely the facts about Islamic heaven.

If we research on the heavens of world’s five famous religions this is what we can learn: Both Judaism and Christianity talk about heaven but do not describe what is in there! Hinduism talks about heaven and give some earthly material pleasures but does not go any further. Buddhism does not believe in after-life, and do not have any hell or heaven. They believe hell and heaven exists on this earth.

But Islam emphatically describes many forms of heavens (at least 8 of them with various status/classes) with plenty of earthly greed’s and lusting/erotic pleasures which not many human beings (made of soil) can refuse to get it. Muslims devoutly pray at least five times (some pray even 10 times) a day, visit Mekka and fawns Pirs and Darbishes (Saints) just to get the ultimate ticket for those lustful happiness of heavens.

In my childhood I asked our Huzur (Imam of the Mosque) what exactly will be the likes of heavenly rewards from Allah for which all Muslims are fawning Allah by five times prayers per day, and fasting for one month. The Imam shaheb replied: “after your death you will be resurrected again as an healthy young man of 25 year old. There in the heaven you will be given beautiful Houris/Gillman, wine, and plenty of foods to eat. You will stay young for ever and death, disease will never come near you again.” Folks, all those Islamic Mullahs, Maoulanas, all those Jihadis of Kashmir, Palestine, Osama-Bin-Laden’s terrorist gang, and all other gullible Muslims ardently believe just that.

Islamic Allah and Prophet Muhammad frequently promised believers of Islam with lustful heavens and erotic pleasures of various kinds which we shall encounter later in this essay. Holy Quran got hundreds of such verses, and myriad’s of Sahih Hadiths dealing Houris and wine and sex for those pious Muslims. Truth of the matter is myth (superstitions), sex and violence are the main pillars of Islam. Below are some samples of divine promises from the Merciful Allah and Compassionate Prophet of Islam.

Quranic verses (Translated by Maolana A. Yousuf Ali) that promises Heaven with Houris, Sex, and Wine for the pious Muslims:

Quran-(52:17-20): “They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Huris (fair females) with wide lovely eyes.” “There they shall pass from hand to hand a (wine) cup, free from any Laghw….”

Quran: (37:40-48): …they will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

Quran: (44:51-55): Yes and we shall wed them to dark-eyed houris (beautiful virgins).

Quran: (55:56-57): In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny?

Quran-(55:72): “Hur (beautiful, fair females) guarded in pavilions;”

Quran: (78:31): “As for the righteous, they surely triumph. Their gardens and vineyards and high-bosomed (pointed breast) virgins for companions, truly overflowing cup”

Quran-(78: 33-34):“And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age, and a full cup of wine.”

Quran-(55:57-58): “Then which of the blessings of your lord will you both (jinn and men) deny? (In beauty) they are like rubies and coral”.

Quran-(56:7-40): “ …we created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand….”

Quran-(55:70-77): “ In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair….dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man or Jinn have touched before…”

Quran-56:22: “And (there will be) Huris with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious)”

Quran-(56: 35-36): “Verily , We have created them (maidens) of special creation. And made them Virgins.”

Quran- (55:56): “Wherein both will be Qasirat-ut-Tarf (chaste females restraining their glances, desiring none except their husband) with whom no man or jinni has had tamth before them.”

Quran: (2:25): “And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise)……….and they will be given these things in resemblance (i.e., in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Muhtahharatun (purified mates and wives) and that they will have abide therein forever”.

Quran:(47:15): “The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun have been promised (is that) in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed, rivers of milk of which the taste never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of clarified honey……….”

Quran-(40-45): "Surely for the God-fearing awaits a place of security gardens and vineyards and maidens with swelling (protruding) bosoms."

Now some sahi Hadiths:

The main themes of the Jihad are: if Jihadi Muslims survive the battle, they secure concubines and plenty of booty, but if they fall (die), they are sure to enter paradise full of houris, wine and living in the most luxurious environment.

TIRMZI, vol. 2 states on page 138: Every man who enters paradise shall be given 72 (seventy-two) houris; no matter at what age he had died, when he is admitted into paradise, he will become a thirty-year-old, and shall not age any further. A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men.

Ghilman (Young Boys): In sura: (52:24) Allah promises to supply young diamond-sparkling beautiful boys for some inhabitants of Islamic heavens. Some deceitful western living mullahs will argue that these boys are there to serve drinks to the pious inhabitants of the heavens and not for having sex by those Beduin homosexual Jihadi Martyrs. They also will argue that Koran did not specify that these Ghilman (young boys) will be used as sex partners by Martyrs, i.e., it was not said so in the Quran. Well, Koran also did not specify what those Martyrs/pious Muslims suppose to do with the wide-eyed, firmed, swollen breast, white skinned beautiful houris! Your parent gets you married a beautiful young lady, and parents never say what you suppose to do with your wife, do they? Decietful Mullah’s logic/excuse that these Ghilman could be there as the waiters just to serve drinks and food does not sound right. I don’t think it is the purpose of supplying young boys just to be the waiters. Waiters could be adult person instead of pearl-sparkling everlasting young boys! Is not it folks?

The Sex Market of Heaven (Islamic brothel):

Allah has arranged for Pious Muslims a non-stop and non-interrupted sex in Islamic heavens because Mullahs will remain busy only with unlimited sex and wine for billions of years to come. These are rewards from the merciful Allah for killing and torturing those enemies of Allah by Mumeen Muslims.

In the Hadiths the Prophet Muhammad gave the believers a final choice of a open sex market in heaven where there will be no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women are in display like open fruit market. Hadith: Al hadiths, Vol. 4, Page-172, No.34: Hozrot Ali (r.a) narrated that the Apostle of Allah said, “There is in paradise an open market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, at once he will have intercourse with them as desired.

In this open sex market of heaven one can easily imagine what type of fun is going to happen there. Say one particular day of heaven—one very pious Muslim (who prayed five times a day and visited Mecca) who has been permitted to the best of Islamic heaven. There one day he decided to visit (out of curiosity) the famous sex market of heaven, and when he reached there, he found out that all his great great grandfathers, grandfather, father, brothers also were there visiting “Islamic Brothel” called heavenly sex market. Now, they all got excited by the paragon beauty of heavenly houris with very swollen breasts, dark eyes and fair skin. The great great grandfather will command all his descendents family members to feel free to enjoy the sweet taste of houris. In that case the great great grandfathers, grandfather, father, brothers—they all will start simultaneous orgy of sexual intercourse right in front of each others. Can you imagine that terrific scenery folks? Allah is really great and merciful indeed!

Now Some Descriptions of Houris:

Quran-(The Tidings: 30) The houris are ever-young women who have wide eyes, flexing glances and swelling (protruding/pointed) bosoms.

MISHKAT, (volume three Says on pages 83-97): If a houri looks down from her abode in heaven onto the earth, the whole distance (space) shall be filled with light and fragrance. A houri's face is more radiant than a mirror, and one can see one's image in her cheek. The marrow of her shins is visible to the eyes.

TIRMZI, volume two (p 35-40): A houri is a most beautiful young woman with a transparent body. The marrow of her bones is visible like the interior lines of pearls and rubies. She looks like red wine in a white glass. She is of white color, and free from the routine physical disabilities of an ordinary woman such as menstruation, menopause, urinal and offal discharge, child bearing and the related pollution. A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle. Houris dwell in palaces of splendid surroundings.

Here are some incredible stuffs in heaven waiting for Mumeen Muslims.

Book by the great Imam Ghazzali: Ihya Uloom Ed-Din. The Sunnis consider this epic as next to Quran.
Volume 4,
Page-4.430

“According to Prophet Muhammad (SW) the Hurs of Paradise will be pure women—free of menstruation, urine, stool, cough and children. The Hurs will sing in Paradise on divine purity and praise—we are most beautiful Hurs and we are for the honored husbands.

Muhammad said that an inmate of Paradise will have the sexual strength of 70 men. Muhammad said, &#8220;An inmate of Paradise will have 500 Hurs, 4,000 unmarried women and 8,000 widowed women. Each of them will keep embracing him for the duration of his whole worldly life.&#8221; <

P-4.431
Muhammad said, &#8220;If an inmate of Paradise will wish to have a son born to him, he will get it. It stays in womb, its weaning away from milk and its youth will come to pass at the same time.&#8221; Muhammad said, &#8220;The inmates of Paradise will be beardless and hairless. Their color will be white and their eyes painted with collyrium. They will be youth of 33 years of age. They will be sixty cubits long and seven cubits broad.&#8221;

Conclusion:

It is quite evident from the Quran and Sahih hadiths that Islamic heaven is full of lusts and earthly greed which had been formulated by Prophet Muhammad himself only to lure Arab Bedouin to join his venture of plundering, killing, rapping innocent Arab pagans and others who refused to believe his weird religion of Allah. Prophet Muhammad was extremely intelligent, cruelest, and very cunning human being indeed! He realized very well that to materialize his narcissistic dream, he needed to incite/energized Bedouin illiterate and desperately vagabond poor Arabs to unite and fight his enemy the Pagans and Jews.

He understood very well, as to, what could be the crucial objects/materials that will be most attractive to those Pagan Arabs. He knew that Arabs are inherently sex maniac and wine lovers which are historically true. In the Arab desert environment&#8212;water was another most precious commodity which no Arabs could refuse or neglect to get. Prophet Muhammad&#8217;s clever creation and wishful description of heavenly pleasures (which he also copied from other religions like Zoroastrian and Hinduism) did not miss any of the above most important and most attractive items to lure Bedouin Arabs. In fact, those poor, illiterate, Vagabond Arab Bedouin were simply mesmerized by the incredible lustful description of heavenly houries, wine, foods, and luxurious life style in the heaven.

Most important driving force behind their craze was war booties: sex with those beautiful young ladies of defeated pagans, wine, and other earthly goods which most Bedouin Arabs could not even dream in their entire life. As a result they were totally fearless fighters and wanted to die in a hurry in order to achieve those incredible heavens in the after life. This was the key factor which brought Prophet Muhammad&#8217;s victory after victory over the Arab Pagans.

Without a question Prophet Muhammad used his most cunning mindsets to create most dangerous and horrendously cruel punishments in his weird Islamic hells (a separate essay will be written on Islamic hells later) which equally kept all Pagan Arabs totally in panic and subdued. The fear of hell fire, and unlimited greed for lustful heavenly pleasures were the most important driving force which has kept most pagan Arabs totally tamed to the Prophet Muhammad&#8217;s wishful mission of establishing Islam. Even today, the same fear of hellfire and greed of lustful heavens are the most important and primary elements (Opium) which is keeping almost 1 Billion human beings not only subdued or numb, but devoid of any norm, or human sense.

Islam Review - Presented by The Pen vs. the Sword Featured Articles . . . Islam: the Facade, the Facts The rosy picture some Muslims are painting about their religion, and the truth they try to hide.
 
You have a big issue with India not implementing the law and allowing Gay marches ?. The law is for such practices only not about marches.
Law takes its own course when approached by aggrieved party.

First you start a topic after reading from a gay site find some reference about India and call it research and post topic here sounding as a wise person. Now you bring in religion. Obviously you would get replies which you do not like to read.

Secondly you are too embarrassed to discuss about homosexuality in your country. Salim did mention about the TV personality from your country.

The references I posted were from Associated Press.

I don't mind discussing homosexuality in Pakistan. What about it? It's pretty clear. Homosexuality is illegal in Pakistan. There are homosexuals in Pakistan. Islam clearly bans homosexuality.

I'm asking about India though. Homosexuality is illegal in India, yet there are many gay pride marches. There is a figure of nearly half of Indian men being homosexual according to an Indian survey, and my final question was whether Hinduism encourages or bans homosexuality. Answer the questions instead of looking to Pakistan, which I have already answered!
 
Dude, RR, make whatever you want of it. The fact is that the law is rarely implemented, and society hasn't yet reached a consensus on whether to uphold it or do away with it.
The debate is still going on.
In such circumstances, the best method is to implement it selectively in areas where it is not tolerated.

Now call it colonial mentality or victorian mentality or islamic influence or hyprocricy or whatever you want. Have fun.

The law is not rarely implemented. I've given many references to show that being openly gay in India leads to arrest. But then some gay pride marches occur in some states, like Calcutta. Does it make sense to you?

This was presented to the UN was it not?

"Policemen take advantage of this fear of the judicial process to threaten sexual minorities with Section 377. They employ such threats to blackmail, extort, rape, and physically abuse, their victims. And because obtaining rapid redress is a virtual impossibility, members of sexual minorities usually pay up or accede to the abuse. This also means that the police records never reflect the fact that the threat of 377 was used, for no case is ever registered. This lack of a paper trail—of records of the prosecution of consensual sexual acts between adult males-- is in turn used by the police to claim that Section 377 is a benign provision chiefly enforced, as they falsely claim, to deal with cases of male rape. In effect it is a vicious cycle of injustice, where the State’s overt and covert support of the oppression and persecution of sexual minorities leads to the denial and curtailment of their basic human rights at every stage of the way."
International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission - Human Rights For Everyone. Everywhere.

Well anyhow, it was just some thoughts that occurred to me. Feel free to bow out.

And Salim, PULEASE! I couldn't care less about discussing Pakistan in this thread! Especially a topic about divine sexual pleasures! Has nothing to do with the title :pop:
 
The law is not rarely implemented. I've given many references to show that being openly gay in India leads to arrest. But then some gay pride marches occur in some states, like Calcutta. Does it make sense to you?

This was presented to the UN was it not?

"Policemen take advantage of this fear of the judicial process to threaten sexual minorities with Section 377. They employ such threats to blackmail, extort, rape, and physically abuse, their victims. And because obtaining rapid redress is a virtual impossibility, members of sexual minorities usually pay up or accede to the abuse. This also means that the police records never reflect the fact that the threat of 377 was used, for no case is ever registered. This lack of a paper trail—of records of the prosecution of consensual sexual acts between adult males-- is in turn used by the police to claim that Section 377 is a benign provision chiefly enforced, as they falsely claim, to deal with cases of male rape. In effect it is a vicious cycle of injustice, where the State’s overt and covert support of the oppression and persecution of sexual minorities leads to the denial and curtailment of their basic human rights at every stage of the way."
International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission - Human Rights For Everyone. Everywhere.

Well anyhow, it was just some thoughts that occurred to me. Feel free to bow out.

And Salim, PULEASE! I couldn't care less about discussing Pakistan in this thread! Especially a topic about divine sexual pleasures! Has nothing to do with the title :pop:

As I said....it is selectively implemented.
 
The references I posted were from Associated Press.

I don't mind discussing homosexuality in Pakistan. What about it? It's pretty clear. Homosexuality is illegal in Pakistan. There are homosexuals in Pakistan. Islam clearly bans homosexuality.

I'm asking about India though. Homosexuality is illegal in India, yet there are many gay pride marches. There is a figure of nearly half of Indian men being homosexual according to an Indian survey, and my final question was whether Hinduism encourages or bans homosexuality. Answer the questions instead of looking to Pakistan, which I have already answered!

Possibly India is more amenable to see reality and not shove it under the carpet.

The law is not used when people move in a peaceful procession in support or against homosexuality is possibly because no homosexual acts are taking place while they are moving in a procession.
 
And Salim, PULEASE! I couldn't care less about discussing Pakistan in this thread! Especially a topic about divine sexual pleasures! Has nothing to do with the title :pop:

Charming, what?

You don't want to associate homosexuality with Divinity?

Then what is this that your wrote?

Another question, is homosexuality allowed/recommended in Hinduism? Lord Shiva in the Ramayana encouraged people to be homosexual did he not?

Isn't it a reference to Divinity that you now claim you do not wish to discuss.

And guess what?

It is what launched this thread in Post # 1 by you. You laid the foundation and parameters, not others, to this sexciting and erotic adventure in cyberspace! ;)

And now you protest in aggrieved innocence!

Charming and cute!

Come, come, Road Runner, you are surely undergoing a strong bout of amnesia! ;) :toast_sign:

Honestly, it matters not what any scripture has to say about homosexuality. What is important is the person himself. If he is a homosexual and is his mind is trapped in fear of damnation, fire and brimstone, then he can have real serious psychological disorders which can be more harmful to general society than his indulging in his unique sexual orientation with a consenting partner with the same orientation!
 
The references I posted were from Associated Press.

I don't mind discussing homosexuality in Pakistan. What about it? It's pretty clear. Homosexuality is illegal in Pakistan. There are homosexuals in Pakistan. Islam clearly bans homosexuality.

I'm asking about India though. Homosexuality is illegal in India, yet there are many gay pride marches. There is a figure of nearly half of Indian men being homosexual according to an Indian survey, and my final question was whether Hinduism encourages or bans homosexuality. Answer the questions instead of looking to Pakistan, which I have already answered!

Acting wise again, You only said not to involve Pakistan, You started mentioning about Hinduism. No religion encourages Homosexuality lets make the discussion it centered around your religion.

I am not sure where from you got the figure "nearly half of Indian men being homosexual according to an Indian survey" kindly put the source.
Also put the source for "there are many gay pride marches" in India rather than having whims and imaginations from Gay site you visited and try to force it on India and Hinduism in this forum.

Do not make any claims without credible sources certainly the Gay site you mentioned is not a credible source.

The other sources you mentioned are only few incidences spread over few years and 300 people march at Calcutta and you happily generalize for over billion people ?
Any you happily change Geography and put Calcutta into Chandigarh i.e merge East India into West India ? Very Clever or Crude ?
 
I am not sure where from you got the figure "nearly half of Indian men being homosexual according to an Indian survey" kindly put the source.

The source is Gay365.com. The survey was conducted amongst a limited number of 2500 individuals. No specifics of the reports were mentioned apart from crude numbers. Also, error margin wasn't specified. I tried to google up the news report from a different source but with no luck.

Now, the authenticity of the report depends on how much you trust gay365.com.
 
After reading the article Salim posted on the last page from the Pakistani gay man, I find it funny that everyone who commented on his commentary on the BBC page assumes he is a Musilm.

"It is forbidden in Islam etc"
 
The source is Gay365.com. The survey was conducted amongst a limited number of 2500 individuals. No specifics of the reports were mentioned apart from crude numbers. Also, error margin wasn't specified. I tried to google up the news report from a different source but with no luck.

Now, the authenticity of the report depends on how much you trust gay365.com.

It's an Associated Press Report conducted by AC Nielsen polling. If you have subscription to IndiaToday, it should be there. How are they numbers crude, and why should a newspaper report specify error margins?
 
It's an Associated Press Report conducted by AC Nielsen polling. If you have subscription to IndiaToday, it should be there. How are they numbers crude, and why should a newspaper report specify error margins?

Then why only gay365 produced the report & not any other news source? In this age of information revolution, it isn't hard to find a news article from different sources. But, not one I could find except for this gay365. And even that news report didn't provide any specific details except for a crude number of 37% male who have confessed to be involved in Gay sex activities. What activities constitute in the category of gay sex? sexual activities are broadly classified & not just limited to intercourse. Mutual masterbation, masterbating before other make friends can also be considered as sexual activity. Ofcourse, all the board members here indulge in d!ck measuring guess that makes all of us participant in gay sex aswell. The report doesn't provide any breakdown of the numbers neither does it say as to what constitute gay sex activity. Also, why isn't the news published by any other source? If any news agency conducts a poll or a research they would want to widely publish the reports in as many news sources as possible in order for their results to authenticated. This itself raises question mark on the authenticity of the report.
 
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