Babri Masjid case- Indian Supreme Court unanimously strikes down Muslim's petition

[Soumitra]

He was a first-time contender in 2019. Let's see how he does in the next round ( 2024 ). But a glass-half-full attitude has to be taken else the middle class thaali-bajao-Corona-bhagao types will bring in NDA again.

Middle class se itni nafrat? Tch tch tch. Thoda kaabu rakho nahi to BP badh jaayega.

 

[jamahir]

Middle class se itni nafrat? Tch tch tch. Thoda kaabu rakho nahi to BP badh jaayega.

I myself am from the middle class, though a poor socialist, and we ( all of us middle classis ) are generally not bothered about events like that of that woman day before yesterday who died of hunger at a railway station while her toddler son played around her dead body unawares.

We feed stray dogs in our neighborhoods, observe cultural rituals, attend our private colleges, go to our ITES jobs and think our job is done. But there is a big world beyond us that we are unaware of and don't bother to know.

 

[xeuss]

The Supreme court did find evidence for the Ram temple from various accounts. There is no single point Hindu organization that could claim ownership to the property and hence used the adverse possession clause for right to ownership.
Coming to the judgment, I'm pretty sure those 5 judges with years of experience doing what they do (non sanghi) best trump those non sanghi experts. This whole issue has been made into an emotional mumbo jumbo with the destruction of the mosque, which could've been solved amicably. Regardless the verdict still would be same.

The Supreme Court, in its judgement, relied on the ASI report, and made the following observations. I have included some of them here for your benefit (there are other observations as well, but I included only a few to make my point)
1. The possible linkages of Buddhist or Jain traditions cannot be excluded
2. Though the excavation has revealed the existence of a circular shrine, conceivably a Shiva shrine dating back to the seventh to ninth century A.D, the underlying structure belongs to twelfth century A.D. The circular shrine and the underlying structure with pillar bases belong to two different time periods between three to five centuries apart;
3. There is no specific finding that the underlying structure was a temple dedicated to Lord Ram; and
4. Significantly, the ASI has not specifically opined on whether a temple was demolished for the construction of the disputed structure though it has emerged from the report that the disputed structure was constructed on the site of and utilised the foundation and material of the underlying structure. found evidence of a temple, there was no judgement of its origins, faith or ownership.

I hope this offers a better understanding to the situation.

If the judgement only addressed the title of the land (which was the original issue), then the Muslim party would win this, since they held the documents showing ownership of the land. Amusingly, the Indian justice system decided to make an idol based on a mythical figure a party to the dispute. Think of it in terms of Mickey Mouse laying ownership to Disneyland.

India's justice system has been compromised. All institutions in India are being systematically weakened. There is no doubt about this. Look at the recent judgments on any of the issues. Habeas Corpus petitions are being ignored among other things.

 

[Soumitra]

I myself am from the middle class, though a poor socialist, and we ( all of us middle classis ) are generally not bothered about events like that of that woman day before yesterday who died of hunger at a railway station while her toddler son played around her dead body unawares.

We feed stray dogs in our neighborhoods, observe cultural rituals, attend our private colleges, go to our ITES jobs and think our job is done. But there is a big world beyond us that we are unaware of and don't bother to know.

So you admit that this "non empathy" you keep accusing me of is a general characteristics of the Middle class.

The reality is "Hum desh chalaate hain"

1 highest amount of taxpayers - the poor don't pay taxes and rich find various loopholes.

2 biggest consumers - we buy everything; from electronics to clothes, automobiles to real estate and our consumption keeps the economy running

3 engines of economy - we are the doctors and lawyers, marketing professionals and CAs, IT sector workers and company managers. The entire private sector runs because of us.

 

[Chhatrapati]

1. The possible linkages of Buddhist or Jain traditions cannot be excluded
2. Though the excavation has revealed the existence of a circular shrine, conceivably a Shiva shrine dating back to the seventh to ninth century A.D, the underlying structure belongs to twelfth century A.D. The circular shrine and the underlying structure with pillar bases belong to two different time periods between three to five centuries apart;
3. There is no specific finding that the underlying structure was a temple dedicated to Lord Ram; and
4. Significantly, the ASI has not specifically opined on whether a temple was demolished for the construction of the disputed structure though it has emerged from the report that the disputed structure was constructed on the site of and utilised the foundation and material of the underlying structure. found evidence of a temple, there was no judgement of its origins, faith or ownership.

1. Ditto possible linkages. That'll not be surprising given, such shrines where both Buddhist and Hindu deities present in a single complex have been found in many places in India and abroad.
2. A temple does not simply have one diety, but multiple deities and the findings don't mean Ram temple was constructed over Shiv temple or vise versa.
3. No, but there is a temple underneath a mosque, that ware in ruins.
4. Yeah, argumentative. Just like the Gyanvapi mosque, Hindus must have mysteriously stopped going to the temple.

Court had taken into account the fact that Guru Nanak visited Ayodhya, for pilgrimage in Ram Janmbhoomi, it was called Ram Janmabhoomi 500 years back, then Nihang Sikhs entered the place in 1858, where Hindus used to worship hence, the other party failed to prove exclusive right to the property.

Don't cherry pick parts of judgment and quote them for convenience. The Supreme Court ruling is very specific.

 

[xeuss]

Court had taken into account the fact that Guru Nanak visited Ayodhya, for pilgrimage in Ram Janmbhoomi, it was called Ram Janmabhoomi 500 years back, then Nihang Sikhs entered the place in 1858, where Hindus used to worship hence, the other party failed to prove exclusive right to the property.

Don't cherry pick parts of judgment and quote them for convenience. The Supreme Court ruling is very specific.

All the items you list above were submitted as evidence of Hindu "belief". The court merely recorded and reported them, did not pass judgement on their veracity.

The parts of the judgment that I quoted, were not cherry picked and were relevant to the discussion at hand, originating from your assertion that was:
"The Supreme court did find evidence for the Ram temple from various accounts."

I am sure you are satisfied by the outcome. I am not. You can believe that there was a Ram temple there. I do not. I don't think the facts support your position. Let's leave it on that.

What is indisputable, is that on December 6, 1992, a Mosque was destroyed. No one has been punished for that crime.

 

[Soumitra]

What is indisputable, is that on December 6, 1992, a Mosque was destroyed.

You guys had mocked Hindus for centuries with that mosque in our holiest place. Did you really expect no repercussions?

There was a court case filed at time of the British. You had 150 years to settle it, but you chose to look the other way

 

[jamahir]

So you admit that this "non empathy" you keep accusing me of is a general characteristics of the Middle class.

I agree but you and I are part of the middle class.

The reality is "Hum desh chalaate hain"

Fine help these desh chalaane waale came for that woman who died of hunger.

Hunger in 2020 ? I don't see stray dogs going hungry yet people dying of hunger ! Ridiculous !

1 highest amount of taxpayers - the poor don't pay taxes and rich find various loopholes.

But why should there be the rich and why be the poor ?

By the way, don't the poor pay taxes like house tax, electricity tax, water tax etc ?

2 biggest consumers - we buy everything; from electronics to clothes, automobiles to real estate and our consumption keeps the economy running

So some IT industry drone in Bangalore or Gurgaon buys ( on EMI ) a Samsung S10 whatever phone for 40,000 rupees but how does that prevent migrant laborers from being forced to walk back to their homes hundreds of kilometers away or even more than 1000, and dying on the way ? Or how does this purchase prevent a farmer in Maharashtra from committing suicide ?

Look at the big picture.

3 engines of economy - we are the doctors and lawyers, marketing professionals and CAs, IT sector workers and company managers. The entire private sector runs because of us.

Right now, in the private sector startup scene in Bangalore, Hyderabad and other cities, tens of thousands of jobs will be cut because of Corona lockdown.

 

[xeuss]

You guys had mocked Hindus for centuries with that mosque in our holiest place. Did you really expect no repercussions?

It is difficult to use logic and reason to argue with fascists. From them, ultimately, it is the end that justifies the means. Rule of law means nothing.

And yes, you are correct. We were naive to expect any semblance of justice in an uncivilized society. A society where people are killed just for their dietary habits, with no repercussions, we should have known better.

There was a court case filed at time of the British. You had 150 years to settle it, but you chose to look the other way

A settlement usually means both parties to the dispute get into an amicable agreement, where the interests of each party is protected and both parties stand to gain.

The settlement that was acceptable to your side is that Muslims vacate the land. That is not a settlement.

 

[xeuss]

This is a very apt couplet for this situation:

Mera qaatil hi mera munsif hai,
Kya meray haq mein faisla dega !

 

[Soumitra]

But why should there be the rich and why be the poor ?

It is inevitable. I can't expect to earn as much as a Mukesh Ambani because he has taken risks and grown his business and employs thousands of people. If you say he inherited the wealth it is true but so did his brother. He also took risks, failed in business and is now facing bankruptcy.

My maid, who may not even have passed class 5th can't be expected to earn as much as me. Again the difference is in skill level and education and what I can command in the market for what I do. Tomorrow if my skills become obsolete I will be out of the job. I will have to reskill myself to earn money and I am prepared for that.

By the way, don't the poor pay taxes like house tax, electricity tax, water tax etc ?

If you own a house you pay house tax. How can a house owner be poor?

There is no electricity tax and water tax but a charge to use these services. If you don't want to pay for what you use dig your own well and use solar power

So some IT industry drone in Bangalore or Gurgaon buys ( on EMI ) a Samsung S10 whatever phone for 40,000 rupees but how does that prevent migrant laborers from being forced to walk back to their homes hundreds of kilometers away or even more than 1000, and dying on the way ? Or how does this purchase prevent a farmer in Maharashtra from committing suicide ?

Look at the big picture.

So an apple falls from a tree, why doesn't it lead to an increase in height of a building in Gurgaon?

Look at the big picture

Right now, in the private sector startup scene in Bangalore, Hyderabad and other cities, tens of thousands of jobs will be cut because of Corona lockdown.

Temporary thing. This will soon pass.

 

[Shantanu_Left]

It is difficult to use logic and reason to argue with fascists. From them, ultimately, it is the end that justifies the means. Rule of law means nothing.

And yes, you are correct. We were naive to expect any semblance of justice in an uncivilized society. A society where people are killed just for their dietary habits, with no repercussions, we should have known better.



A settlement usually means both parties to the dispute get into an amicable agreement, where the interests of each party is protected and both parties stand to gain.

The settlement that was acceptable to your side is that Muslims vacate the land. That is not a settlement.

What a brilliant post!

Hey man, sorry about those d*ck-like comments the other day. I was just messing with you. Not to mention a bit drunk. It dilutes the character of our common struggle.

As it turns out, your voice is so much important not only for India's minorities but anyone opposed to fascism. Keep up the good work.

The "Resistance" in India should really get our act together and stop with the loose comments and 2 paisa bickering. We could take a leaf from Mahatma Gandhi's Satyagraha which took nearly 30 years to achieve meaningful results. All the comrades should be on the same page by now. This will be a long fight.

 

[Soumitra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268045574562955264

 

[xeuss]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268045574562955264

We all know where Waseem Rizvi's allegiance lies. He is simply doing his master's bidding.

 

[Soumitra]

We all know where Waseem Rizvi's allegiance lies. He is simply doing his master's bidding.

So anyone who doesn't follow your line is a sellout. Fair Enough.