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Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

The argument given nowadays is that JHMCS and full spherical missile systems makes thrust vectoring irrelevant. Logically -- i am inclined to believe that is true -- if that is the case then may be flanker can be at disadvantage at some times.

On a side note RSAF didnt use their JHMCS ..they have block 52 apparently ?

In betn -- Phantom is personally one of my fav characters !!:cheers:

It appears that they dont:

It is rumored that the Israeli's have provided the RSAF with a first batch of short-range IR-guided Python 4 missiles. Recent pictures have shown the RSAF vipers flying with the DASH-3 HMS integration sensors attached to the canopy. DASH-3 (or any other HMDS) is essential to exploit the full potential of the Python 4, however the presence of the DASH-3 sensors does not confirm the availability of Python 4 missiles. Python4 can be fired without the HMDS and DASH can be employed to slave quite a number of other sensors (FCR, TGP, etc.) to the pilot's sight.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article17.html

I will reply in more detail later regarding this thread; apologiez for also missing your question in the other thread regarding the Post Mumbai Incident, i probably overlooked it.

As Shamim Sahab said before, most of RSAF's training is not combat related. To compare how PAF would fare against SU30MKI as compared to RSAF is absurd; both countries have different training regimes, doctrine and threat perception. I guess we all remember how the SU30MKI fared against experienced USAF F16 pilots. I will quote Shamim Sahab here regarding RSAF:

Yes they are highly trained and motivated but most of their training is not combat related as you may think. My opinions are based more on observations, conversations, and popular beliefs about RSAF.

I hate to divulge information that may be misconstrued. I may not be as knowledgeable as every one here is but have been able to observe and learn a little extra due my background in defense and defense industry .

Some friends are aware of my previous employment with General Dynamics Corporation. Besides working on Peace-gate project, I also worked on some other Peace- Programs in few other countries. One of them was a short stint on Peace Carvin-1 in Singapore also.

Singapore has a very small airspace to operate in. Total area of operation is not more than 300 square miles, smaller than the size of Karachi or Bombay. The four airbases occupy one half of the country. Threat perception is nil. So there has always been a fear of mid-air collisions and accidents. Most of RSAF training is safety oriented and ACMI based which helps the aircrafts to remain separated and not collide. This is all instrument based with help from ground. Pilot alone cannot be successful unless help from ground is received. The In Plane Lead, Pure and Lag Pursuit training, which is a norm for other Air Forces including Pakistan, takes place only in USA which everyone knows will be useless in Singapore.
The ACMI is priority number one which many in RSAF pilot corps call BORAX, a term used for boring and continuous. So ACMI is the most important training method for RSAF while the ACM and In Plane Lead, Pure and Lag Pursuit training is the priority number one for PAF in addition to ACMI.
RSAF cannot have more than few aircrafts in the air at the same time because of tiny air space. Only when it flies large formations, it may have 20-30 aircrafts in the air at the same time. It has never fired a live missile,LGBs or a dumb bomb in its 30 year old history even though it has large number of Aim-120 and Aim-9X along with others in the inventory. It cannot fire one in Singapore because there is a better than 80% chance that it might hit one of its own than a Bandit. I also heard the term "Fangs Sunk in Floorboard" meaning RSAF planes are more vulnerable even when they have the enemy in sight. I will say one thing. RSAF has the best ACMI trained pilots in the world . But that is it.

RSAF has been on a buying spree because it is asked to do so by influential and it has to oblige. It has reached a point that 2/3rd of its latest aircrafts are based thousand of miles away in USA, France, Malaysia, Thailand, and Brunei . Singapore has been treated as a cash cow. It has been arming itself to defend against enemies which may be non-existent but because what the Papa says, it has to oblige..
 
Why should India have to destroy Pakistani terror camps, when US dones are already bombing them on a regular basis?

If India attacked Pakistan, it would greatly increase the power of Pakistan's military elite and rally the entire Pakistani population behind them. Right now the Pakistani population is divided, with calls for sovereignty from Balochistan, Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Gilgit, etc. The recent floods have only exacerbated these feelings by revealing the central government's absolute incompetence. Its better for India to keep them divided and not give them a reason to unite.



Then why all the drama and hysteria after Mumbai attacks?

Drone bombings have been going on before that!

I guess it's you who is not sure what you want.
 
Why should India have to destroy Pakistani terror camps, when US dones are already bombing them on a regular basis?

If India attacked Pakistan, it would greatly increase the power of Pakistan's military elite and rally the entire Pakistani population behind them. Right now the Pakistani population is divided, with calls for sovereignty from Balochistan, Khyber Pakhtunkwa, Gilgit, etc. The recent floods have only exacerbated these feelings by revealing the central government's absolute incompetence. Its better for India to keep them divided and not give them a reason to unite.

Well Mr genius if that is the case than you should advice your govt to not to get psychotic and insane after every incident of terrorism. By the way Pakistanis are always united when it comes to bharat. Good thing is you also realize this fact.;)
 
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As Shamim Sahab said before, most of RSAF's training is not combat related. To compare how PAF would fare against SU30MKI as compared to RSAF is absurd; both countries have different training regimes, doctrine and threat perception. I guess we all remember how the SU30MKI fared against experienced USAF F16 pilots. I will quote Shamim Sahab here regarding RSAF:


i want to know what is the total flying hour of an average paf pilot for training
if you can please provide a neutral link.
 
Dear Sir, There will be no reduction in GDP, as Agricultural Sector only contribute only 24% in GDP.
Most affected crops now are cotton and vegetables (that were unharvested), sugarcane will be largely unaffected. new crop of vegs will be sown right after water will be receded.
This is september 2010 and more than nine and half months are remaing.

I never knew that you are more knowledgeable then your prime minister gilani or United Nations (UN).

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/inflation-spike,-job-losses-feared-flood-loss-estimates-rise-to-$43bn-pm-290

Pakistan budget deficit up to 7 pct due to floods

UPDATE 1-Pakistan budget deficit up to 7 pct due to floods | Agricultural Commodities | Reuters

Global aid needed to help Pakistan avoid losing wheat crop, says UN agency

The government should take measures on war footing to import wheat seed in maximum time period otherwise the country would face a severe wheat crisis in 2011.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Even in Pakistan city that escaped flood, need overwhelms aid flow | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | International News

Seed losses threaten Pakistan's 2011 wheat harvest

Agrimoney.com | Agricultural Commodities - Seed losses threaten Pakistan wheat harvest
 
i want to know what is the total flying hour of an average paf pilot for training
if you can please provide a neutral link.

PAKISTAN - PLUGGING THE GAPS

Robert Karniol JDW's Asia-Pacific Editor
Bangkok

Air force

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost an average of nine aircraft annually through attrition over the period 2000-03, but this has halved over the past two years. "We enhanced our flying," explained Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the chief of air staff. While acting as PAF chief of operations ACM Kaleem launched an initiative to reduce losses due to pilot error. He spoke to Jane's shortly before his retirement on 20 March, when Air Marshal Tanveer Ahmad Khan assumed the top post.

"In 2000, our flying per pilot was in the region of nine hours per month. We have progressively taken this up to 15 hours, or 15 sorties," he said, adding that the figure has now stabilised.

This expansion of flying hours is paralleled by increasingly complex exercises. These include the introduction of surface effects in dissimilar air combat training exercises and intensified operations. The latter saw one air base generate 175 sorties in a day during a trial, for example, while the PAF as a whole flew 8,000 sorties of various types in a month during the September 2005 Exercise 'High Mark'.

Another core development is the PAF's rewrite of its basic doctrine, which dated back to 1988.

"We tried to amplify the characteristics of air power for our sister services," said ACM Kaleem, noting that this also outlines force goals and new missions. The doctrine was released in April 2005 and a revised edition has just been completed following input from the army and navy.

The focus in combat aircraft is on preparing for the introduction of the JF-17 (FC-1 Super-7) attack fighter: a collaborative programme with China involving 150 platforms. This will become the PAF's mainstay fighter as older models are phased out, with delivery of four aircraft from the first small batch production due in March 2007.

Russian sources have told Jane's that the RD-93 engine powering the Chinese model will not be re-exported to Pakistan, but ACM Kaleem says that Beijing has provided solid assurances otherwise.

Three prototypes now undergoing evaluation are fitted with a Chinese radar, probably the NRIET KLJ-10, and this will outfit the Pakistani fighter if it performs as required.

Beyond this, ACM Kaleem says there is an outstanding requirement for 35-50 additional advanced fighters. Plans to acquire more Lockheed Martin F-16s were suspended due to the October 2005 earthquake that devastated Pakistan. This could delay any deal by at least two to three years. The air chief is concerned that both circumstances and requirements may have changed by then, necessitating new negotiations and still further delays, and he suggests that Islamabad may end up turning again to China.

This could also impinge on plans to obtain the Joint Direct Attack Munition, which has been requested from the US.

The PAF has meanwhile finalised a contract for Italy's Galileo Falco medium-altitude endurance tactical UAV, with delivery due in December. Four systems are involved and these will supplement an indigenous UAV already deployed but requiring further development.

ACM Kaleem says tactical and strategic-lift assets are currently sufficient. Strategic-lift assets have been supplemented by six Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules transport aircraft to bolster the 10 currently operational. The first of these arrives in March and all will be delivered before 2007. Twelve C-130s should then be upgraded to C-130H standard, including a glass cockpit, with the remainder placed in storage.

The PAF is also upgrading its air-defence network, including indigenous development of a multiradar tracker and graphic user interface. The service has also acquired several new radar systems from China, including the YLC-2 long-range 3-D phased-array surveillance system and previously unknown YLC-6 low-level system. Six of 10 YLC-6 radars on order have so far been delivered and Pakistan is also gaining six US-made AN/TPS-77 tactical mobile radars for medium-level application.

ACM Kaleem says that Pakistan has also finalised a contract with Sweden for the Saab-Ericsson airborne early warning and control aircraft, thought to involve seven platforms. This has the Ericsson Microwave Systems Erieye airborne radar mounted on a Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft.

Talks are now under way to replace the Thales Defence Systems Crotale low-altitude surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, with the current inventory including 11 acquisition units and 23 firing units.

Discussion involves acquiring the MBDA Spada 2000 low- to medium-altitude SAM system, which offers both tactical and strategic mobility that includes air-transportability by C-130 Hercules. A contract could be finalised before the current financial year ends in June.

"When US sanctions were imposed in 1990 both the PAF and the Indian Air Force were second-generation air forces. No real-time surveillance capability, no air-to-air refuelling capability, no airborne early warning capability, no beyond-visual-range capability, no stand-off weapon capability. However, after 13 years of sanctions India had all of the above and Pakistan had none until beginning three or four years ago. This is the gap," said ACM Kaleem. "We have to bridge this gap in a manner that we can deny the advantages that our neighbour has in these domains so that we are able to defend ourselves effectively."
 
Well Mr genius if that is the case than you should advice your govt to not to get psychotic and insane after every incident of terrorism. By the way Pakistanis are always united when it comes to bharat. Good thing is you also realize this fact.;)
Did you see any Indian minister talking about war? Pranab Mukherjee kept on saying that war is no solution from first day of Mumbai incident. You can not expect same maturity from general public. They are similar in both countries. Even in PDF you can find many who declare war against India every now and then on water issue.
 
i think it is old post atleast 3 to 4 year old, this was post when pakistani economy was booming what is the present situation. because for any force it is essential to remain fighting fit.
 
i wonder y ppl like u alwayz look india as a threat ??


as far as i m concerned, india haven't attacked pakistan ever !!!


though siachen was a exception.... i admit that !


every country hav right 2 protect its boundaries and people !!


pak and india are no exceptions !!!!


upgrade PAF !!


but plzz dun posses india as a threat !!!


:)
 
i wonder y ppl like u alwayz look india as a threat ??


as far as i m concerned, india haven't attacked pakistan ever !!!


though siachen was a exception.... i admit that !


every country hav right 2 protect its boundaries and people !!


pak and india are no exceptions !!!!


upgrade PAF !!


but plzz dun posses india as a threat !!!


:)

Aaahhhhh, someone is forgetting the back stabbing of 71.

No worries, it happens.

India has been the enemy, is the enemy, will remain the enemy.

Simple non-complicated fact. :)
 
Aaahhhhh, someone is forgetting the back stabbing of 71.

No worries, it happens.

India has been the enemy, is the enemy, will remain the enemy.

Simple non-complicated fact. :)


Feeling is mutual.. Simple non-complicated Fact... :cheers:

No one forgets the back stabbings..We haven't ( 1965 )...
 
Feeling is mutual.. Simple non-complicated Fact... :cheers:

No one forgets the back stabbings..We haven't ( 1965 )...

Well then instead of telling me the simple fact in a sarcastic way, tell it to your Indian friend that why we are enemy and he shouldn't tell us that why we consider India our enemy.
 
Nice post. My thoughts.

It appears that they dont:

It is rumored that the Israeli's have provided the RSAF with a first batch of short-range IR-guided Python 4 missiles. Recent pictures have shown the RSAF vipers flying with the DASH-3 HMS integration sensors attached to the canopy. DASH-3 (or any other HMDS) is essential to exploit the full potential of the Python 4, however the presence of the DASH-3 sensors does not confirm the availability of Python 4 missiles. Python4 can be fired without the HMDS and DASH can be employed to slave quite a number of other sensors (FCR, TGP, etc.) to the pilot's sight.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article17.html

I dont believe it matters if Python is live with RSAF. They have Dash helmets which is confirmed from the link posted. I presume DASH has integrated with AIM and Python missiles. During these exercises the presence of these missiles are just simulated -- so the question to be asked is if the source of 'Ghostwhowalks' is true then how did Su 30 manage to employ TVC against pilots equipped with Dash. I dont have the answer -- but i am coming to a conclusion that there is more to TVC maneuvers than meets the eye.


As Shamim Sahab said before, most of RSAF's training is not combat related. To compare how PAF would fare against SU30MKI as compared to RSAF is absurd; both countries have different training regimes, doctrine and threat perception. I guess we all remember how the SU30MKI fared against experienced USAF F16 pilots. I will quote Shamim Sahab here regarding RSAF:


With due respect to Shamim saab -- i have never believed against pilot against X versus Y will tell us something. It should be looked as a machine against a machine. So it doesnt matter which pilot is in the cockpit there are certain flying characteristics which either through observation or through pilot chat --will be very nice for Su 30 or IAF pilots to learn and exploit later on. And most importantly it will also help understand what situations to avoid when meeting with F16 adversary. So these excercises have their fair share of value.

Now with regards to RSAF training -- i have heard that most of them or deployed in nato nations or in USA for training on a continous basis -- if that is true -- they you can expect some good training.
 
You completely failed to comprehend what he was trying to say.


Just look at Mumbai attacks. The entire Indian government and it's propaganda puppies wanted to go to war. Sonia Gandhi and her remarks of give Pakistan a befitting reply (her own words not mine...go look up). So what happened then?

India media portraying numbers and parity between Indian Army and Pakistan Army and IAF/PAF.

Those videos are still up there, go look them. You couldn't do shyt because the government of India knew well, that Pakistan can retaliate with any weapon out there, conventional or nuclear and hence it would be India's own loss and erode any support for Mumbai attack victims and India as a whole.

Stop dreaming....bla bla :blah: SU30 this and that.

Srilanka and Bangladesh cannot be compared to the sophistication of Pakistan or Indian Armed forces.

Not sure why are you so pumped up...remember war's are no jokes....there is a huge cost for war and one has to see political mileage, strategic mileage, economic mileage out of it....When you ignore it you end up looking like fool....Kargil is one such example....

GOI did not attacked Pak even after there was such a demanding public pressure is commendable...One must appreciate GOI stand that even after having clear mandate to go on war with Pakistan they choose Diplomacy.....

Let me give you an example ...As far as provocations are concerned then remember just after Kargil incident another incident took place....Atlantique incident where as per Pak government IAF shot down PN navy in broad day light in their own (read Pak) territory....May i know what happened to Bravado Pak forces then??? Now read my above statement again....war's are costly and if you look pragmatically then no one actually wins....Thus post mumbai when political class chose to go offensive via diplomacy then it by no stretch of Imagination say's that GOI did that because Indian forces can't take on Pak forces....With Pakistan dwindling economy and India's booming one has to be kiddish to say that gap b/w Indian and Pak armed forces is not increasing....
 
Not sure why are you so pumped up...remember war's are no jokes....there is a huge cost for war and one has to see political mileage, strategic mileage, economic mileage out of it....When you ignore it you end up looking like fool....Kargil is one such example....

GOI did not attacked Pak even after there was such a demanding public pressure is commendable...One must appreciate GOI stand that even after having clear mandate to go on war with Pakistan they choose Diplomacy.....

Let me give you an example ...As far as provocations are concerned then remember just after Kargil incident another incident took place....Atlantique incident where as per Pak government IAF shot down PN navy in broad day light in their own (read Pak) territory....May i know what happened to Bravado Pak forces then??? Now read my above statement again....war's are costly and if you look pragmatically then no one actually wins....Thus post mumbai when political class chose to go offensive via diplomacy then it by no stretch of Imagination say's that GOI did that because Indian forces can't take on Pak forces....With Pakistan dwindling economy and India's booming one has to be kiddish to say that gap b/w Indian and Pak armed forces is not increasing....



My post had nothing to do with Kargil or it's aftermath. Kargil, though localised, was a war. Mumbai fiasco wasn't.

As much as India wanted to go to war, they couldn't.


Remember when UN weapons inspectors resigned after failing to find any WMDs in Iraq? USA still went to war right?
Same in Afghanistan. No evidence, just went in. Why? Because they could do so with all their power.


In case of India vs Pakistan there isn't so much of a gap. India could have attacked easily if probably they had same power like US. But to be true, they don't.


The Antlantique incident was shooting down of an unarmed plane. Though deliberate from Indian side, Pakistan couldn't risk lives of thousands for the lives of those brave people lost on that plane.

Kargil was a war (Mumbai fiasco had potential but was NOT one), Two IAF planes were shot down. Thousands died.
Atlantique incident was very different than Mumbai.
Go read Sonia Gandhi and your politicians views after Mumbai attacks.



"..........Atlantique incident where as per Pak government IAF shot down PN navy in broad day light in their own (read Pak) territory....May i know what happened to Bravado Pak forces then???..."


As i said, India would have attacked Pakistan easily had Pakistan been a much weaker state. The interception of IAF jets within Pakistani Airspace, after Mumbai attacks, shows our Bravado forces.

You seriously need to update your memory, and level of writing proficiency, which gave me a headache.
 
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