Who are the Taliban: Clarifying ambiguities:-
February 7th, 2014 |
By Kasim Osmani
Following is a translation of an interview with Dutch researcher Alex Strick van Linschoten about the Taliban. Alex is PhD student at King’s College, co-editor of My Life with the Taliban & The Poetry of the Taliban, and co-author of An Enemy We Created. The interview was originally published in Urdu on 2013/02/03 edition of daily Dunya.
Dunya: You are working on the Taliban and Afghanistan for last eight years. What persuaded you to choose these topics?
Alex: I visited Afghanistan as a traveler not as a researcher. I think it is an interesting place to visit. I wanted to know about this country. In the meanwhile, I developed good relations with northern Afghanistan and learnt Pashto language. I am also learning Arabic and Persian. When I met Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, I realized that we really do not have enough knowledge and understanding about the Taliban movement, although, too much is written and talked about them. Thus, I started research on different aspects of this movement and wrote three books. I am also working on some more books and programs in this regard. I am astonished to notice that the West spends a great amount of wealth here, yet it does not understand the Taliban and Afghanistan. I am trying to highlight the real problem.
Dunya: The research topic of your PhD is “The identity of the Taliban movement before 2001: In the background of their narrations and statements”. In what ways do you think the Taliban have changed their strategy regarding Islamic movement after the 9/11?
Alex: The Taliban have certainly changed a lot after the 9/11 incident. The circumstances also changed. Soon after the 9/11, the Taliban’s associates were arrested and sent to Guantanamobay. They were deprived of power. The people started hating them. And within two years, the Taliban realized that there was growing hatred in the people against them. They did not realize it when they were in power. Gradually, they felt the need to bring some changes to continue their movement. Therefore, the Taliban changed their policies in many ways. They allowed music to some extent and also changed the policies regarding television and local festivals. The Taliban will announce their policy on education in the next year. Their education policy is similar to that of Afghanistan. Thus, it is true that the Taliban have changed.
However, the Taliban did not change their identity or the purpose of international jihad movement. Rather, their movement is rapidly extending to a nationwide level. I can distinguish between the Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. In Karachi, I attended different seminars and heard people as saying that there is no difference between the Pakistani and Afghan. However, I think these are two different organizations with a different history. The Taliban movement does not belong to the Pashtun, but includes a large number of Pashtun. Currently, people from other ethnicities are becoming a part of this movement. The Taliban do not use Pashtun as their identity. They just want to become a nationwide movement in Afghanistan. Pashtun has become their identity just because most of their leadership is Pashtun.
Dunya: Your co-writer Flex and you in the book “The Enemy We Created” provided a detailed account of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Tell us briefly.
Alex: The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are generally considered as one organization, especially in the US. The basic purpose of this book was to give an understanding of the relationship between the two organizations. Thus we started working on it. It was quite a job to understand the relationship between Mullah Umar and Usama bin Ladin. It was also difficult to understand the relationship between the Taliban and Arabic fighters because both of them have ideological differences. Mullah Umar did not want to be known as a weak leader, thus, he did not hand over Bin Ladin to the US. However, it was not because the both leaders had close relationship.
Dunya: If the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are two different organizations, why did the Taliban push their country into war for the sake of one person? And as you said their leaders were not closely associated, don’t you think it weakens the reason why the US attacked Afghanistan?
Alex: This is the point I want to clarify. When we were working on this issue, the people said that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda both were the same. Suppose, if they are same organizations, then the US has got a justification to permanently stay in Afghanistan and fight the Taliban. But suppose, they are two different organizations, it provides the US a justification to withdraw from Afghanistan because it has defeated the Al-Qaeda – the US officials say that after Usama bin Ladin’s assassination, the Al-Qaeda is present only in Waziristan. The Taliban are now willing to hold dialogue with the US, giving the US an opportunity to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Dunya: The Taliban emerged after the Soviet Union’s defeat in Afghanistan. They had Pakistani support at that time. Currently, the Taliban are fighting against the US. Do they still enjoy public support?
Alex: The first thing I understood about the Taliban was that they basically are Afghan and belong to urban and rural areas of northern Afghanistan. However, most of the Afghan youth, especially in Kabul, say that the Taliban are Pakistani and not Afghan. This is not true. Even today whenever the US troops arrest a Taliban fighter, they conduct surveys to trace his background. I cannot tell the exact figures; however, according to a survey, over 80 percent of the arrested Taliban belonged to Afghanistan. It means the Taliban movement has its roots in Afghanistan not in any other country including Pakistan. As for the foreign support being given to the Taliban, Pakistan did support them once. There are some Pakistani groups in different areas of Afghanistan, for example, the Fazlullah Balai group is in Kantar. However, the Taliban are basically Afghan.
As for the northern Afghanistan, the Taliban could not continue their movement without public support. However, the people support them with reservations. Some Afghan citizens allow the Taliban to stay in their homes; whereas, some allow them to stay in mosques only. After the US launched nighttime raids, most of the people avoid sheltering the Taliban home. If the Taliban had no public support, they would not have been able to continue their movement in any other area. If you talk about the public opinion, a common Afghan has two different opinions regarding the Taliban. On the one hand, you find an Afghan annoyed over the ongoing warfare; he does not want to pass through an explosive tunnel to reach market, but on the other hand, he does not want the US troops to raid his home in search of the Taliban. Thus, a common Afghan does not keep soft corner for both the US and the Taliban. However, the Afghans know that the US troops will be gone after two years and Taliban will be present. Therefore, they do not fully oppose the Taliban.
Dunya: You have closely observed the Taliban. You also compiled the memoir of Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Afghanistan ambassador to Pakistan. Do you think the Taliban leadership still trusts Pakistan after it joined the US alliance and diverted from its conventional Afghan policy?
Alex: As you know that many of the Taliban leaders were arrested and detained after the 9/11 incident. However, the Taliban leaders are being released as well. Pakistan still enjoys influence in this regard. For example, the Mullah Brothers are present in Islamabad or Rawalpindi. Therefore, Pakistan’s influence or contacts do exist in terms of presence of Taliban’s key leadership. These people can help hold dialogue. However, if we talk about the 1990s, it can be said that there was a complex relationship between the Pakistani establishment and the Taliban. It was said that the Taliban were under Pakistan’s control. However, if you happen to talk to some colonels of the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence], ones who had dealt with the Taliban, you would come to know that the Taliban never agreed to what Pakistani establishment said. Currently, the situation is the same. The Afghan Taliban do not fully trust Pakistan even knowing that Pakistan is releasing their leaders. The Taliban still suspect that the process of their leaders’ release is a part some big game. Yet, you cannot say that Pakistan completely changed its policy on Afghanistan. The Afghan Taliban do not consider Pakistan a reliable ally. Their leaders, who are in Pakistan, want to return to their homeland. Their lives in Pakistan are no less than a prison.
Dunya: How are the Taliban’s relationships with other stakeholders in Afghanistan?
Alex: They have started interacting. In this regard, a meeting was held in Paris the last week. All these groups will have to come at one platform so to bring long-lasting peace in Afghanistan. Currently, these meetings are in initial phases. The Taliban are a local group that has become a political movement. The US will be gone in a few years. Thus, the Taliban and all the Afghan stakeholders will have to gather at some platform to resolve the issues. However, many groups do not want to hold dialogue with the Taliban, for example, the Northern Alliance that discontinued formal dialogue with the Taliban after 2001.
Dunya: Can the Taliban be accused for assassination of key Afghan leader, Burhanudin Rabbani?
Alex: I am not the Taliban’s spokesman. Only the Taliban can give you a satisfactory answer. However, according the evidence, it is undoubted that the Taliban were involved in Rabbani’s murder. It is a mystery whether Mullah Omer or some local Taliban commander had ordered this attack.
Dunya: Do the Afghan Taliban consider the Tehreek-e Taliban Pakistan [TTP] a part of their movement?
Alex: Not at all. Although the TTP leaders consider Mullah Omer their supreme leader and represent them as his devotees, the Afghan Taliban and the TTP are two different organizations. In the recent past, Mullah Omer started contacting the TTP through Mullah Dadullah, Mullah Brother, and Siraj Haqqani. The TTP leadership respects the Afghan Taliban leaders. However, the nature of relationship does not allow the Afghan Taliban to order the TTP to carry out a mission. Rather the Afghan Taliban maintain formal distance from the TTP. There is a formal relationship between the two organizations that is not bound to any accord.
Dunya: Do the Afghan Taliban have reservations over the TTP using their identity and defaming them?
Alex: They have never expressed concerns as to the TTP using their identity in any statement or interview. The Afghan Taliban are struggling to achieve the status of a political movement. However, the two organizations have ideological conformity as to the US opposition or attack on Malala Yousufzai. The Afghan Taliban claim to be a separate organization; however, they cannot support their stance with arguments and details, because it might prove problematic for them in Pakistan. They do not explicitly distinguish themselves from the TTP since they frequently need help of the Pakistani Taliban. One cannot predict about their relationship in future as they have common religion and cause. However, after the US withdraws from Afghanistan, the Afghan Taliban will not need the Pakistani Taliban’s support. This might result in the Afghan Taliban openly claiming to be separate organization.
Dunya: What is the opinion of the Afghan Taliban about attacks on Pakistani Army and its people?
Alex: They do not support such attacks. Mullah Omer issued statements more than twice in this regard. He also issued statements forbidding the TTP to stop such attacks.
Dunya: So what is the basic difference between the Pakistani and Afghan Taliban?
Alex: It will be easier to tell similarities between the two! Both of these organizations have different history. They emerged in different circumstances. Many of the TTP leaders have not fought in Afghanistan. Even they are not familiar with the top Taliban leadership. Although there is a complete background, the TTP emerged after 2001. Both the TTP and Afghan Taliban do have ideological differences. Their objectives and vision are also different.
The Afghan Taliban want to set up a sharia based Islamic government in Afghanistan. They are not worried about Pakistan. Although some of them do not accept the Durand Line, their objectives are limited to Afghanistan. Indeed, the new generation of the Afghan Taliban seems to have an ideological harmony with the TTP.
Dunya: Are the Taliban willing to sign a unanimous social agreement for restoration of peace in Afghanistan?
Alex: So far the Taliban leaders I have met do not seem to have any issue with the current Afghanistan Constitution. A unanimous constitution is not the core issue of Afghanistan. There is a war in Afghanistan between two opposing groups. The problem is the game of political powers. This problem is intensifying because the money comes from abroad. Another reason is that despite a civil war, none of the Taliban warring factions ever talked about dividing Afghanistan. Their aim is to establish Afghanistan as sovereign Islamic state. Thus, a unanimous constitution is not the problem of Afghanistan.
Dunya: What do you think is the opinion of the Pakistani media, policymakers, and educated class regarding Afghanistan, especially about the Taliban?
Alex: When I visited Karachi for the first time, I met the people, talked to journalists and exchanged views with those associated with think-tanks that are working on Afghanistan. I was astonished to know their views and information about Afghanistan and the Taliban. Today, I think I should not have felt so because hardly any of those I met had been to Afghanistan. And those who might have visited Afghanistan, would not have gone across Kabul. Suppose, some American, who has never personally visited Afghanistan, writes about the Taliban or Afghanistan sitting in Washington DC. This is the problem with the public opinion. I do not like to read such analyses.
There is possibility that the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan might have ideological similarities as the both belong to neighboring countries. But the US and Pakistani mindset cannot be the same. Yet there is a room to build ideological consensus. The Pakistani media needs to send permanent representatives to Afghanistan. Though there are some exceptions, still there is a need to send more representatives to witness what actually happens here. I had many opportunities to attend seminars and conferences in Afghanistan. Believe me, the speakers are not aware of the basic facts. For example, a very few people know that the TTP and the Afghan Taliban are two different organizations. There is a reason why they do not openly claim it.
Dunya: What do you say about the Western world?
Alex: Yes, I think the West still does not know who the Taliban are, where do they belong to, and what is their agenda. When I read the US or European papers, I realize that despite spending 12 years in Afghanistan, the West still fails to understand the realities. The people do not know anything about the Taliban’s objectives and their organization. Even today, many people consider the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban one organization. I think we have not spent money in the right direction to understand Afghanistan. The West arrived in Afghanistan in 2001, claiming that it understood the country’s situation and would do its freewill. One cannot realize the actual situation unless one knows the language of that place. Probably, a few of the European diplomats know Pashto, Dari or Persian? This shows how serious they are. Actually, they presume to that they know everything, and are proud of their technology. This is the reason why most of the analyses or articles regarding Afghanistan or the Taliban that the West produces are based on assumption and wishes.
Dunya: You wrote the book “The Poetry of the Taliban”. Some media circles criticized it. What was the purpose of writing this book?
Alex: All the efforts and research behind this book was aimed at providing help to understand the objectives of the Taliban. This book is a guide to the people here and abroad. When we read the Taliban’s poetry, we realized that it had different approach than what is published about the Taliban in New York Times or Georgian. Thus, I think this book can prove an interesting material to the European readers. When you read the Taliban’s poetry, you come to know that the Taliban do have families and are human being like us. Whether you agree or not, the Taliban have a history. I just made an effort to help understand the Taliban.
Dunya: The western and critics in the region are of the view that the Taliban are extremists, and brutal murderers, and it does not make any difference if they write poetry. They are considered enemies of humanity. Thus, if you publish the Taliban’s poetry, it means you are trying to present a positive image of the extremists. What would you say?
Alex: I would disagree that they are only extremists and kill people. I have spent time with them in Afghanistan. It is true that they fight the Americans troops and even behead them. But you would find the same Taliban fighter cuddling with his kids the next day. This is the other side of the picture. I am trying to show this side. I am not saying that they are innocent people and play with their kids. But nobody looks at the other side of the picture. Most of the people in the US and Pakistan are in favor of eliminating the Taliban. When I read essays and editorials here, they also call war the only solution to eliminate the Taliban.
I think after reading the book, one would know that the Taliban also live in rural areas like us, but they have a purpose. However, if you know all the facts, it would become difficult for you to support the elimination of the Taliban. You will tend to find a way to engage them. And you would agree to my views once you read the book.
Dunya: Do you think the Taliban can become a part of democratic and political process?
Alex: The Taliban have gone through major changes since 2001. The problem is that the Taliban have never been encouraged as a political movement. We consider them armed movement and use power against them. The Taliban receive funding on grounds of being a political movement. For example, they have a small political office in Qatar where 10 to 12 people are living along with their family. These are in little number and cannot run an influential Taliban movement. Thus it is quite difficult for them to continue their political movement without facing an armed conflict. Probably the situation might change in future, especially after the ceasefire, and the Taliban might be able to change their identity and mend their ways. However, whether or not the Taliban come to such a conclusion mainly depends on the approach with which US and European countries deals with them. It depends on the West to accept the Taliban as a political movement or otherwise.
Dunya: The Taliban belong to tribal belts and have a history of armed movement. Are they capable of changing a democratic or political organization?
Alex: They understand politics. They do play politics in areas under their influence. They are capable of becoming a part of political process. However, if you ask as to how much public support they have for elections, I think it is not over 30 percent. In order to become a political movement, the Taliban need to work out a strategy and gain maximum public support.
Dunya: The US will withdraw from Afghanistan in 2014. There are reports of dialogue with the Taliban. How do you see the post-US Afghanistan?
Alex: The Afghanistan situation will remain the same. The number of foreign troops will squeeze to a few by January 2015. The Taliban will be here fighting with them. The current Afghan government will have US backing and financial support. The Afghan government will be needing investment and military assistance from the US. The government will run on these grounds. Thus, the situation will remain the same. However, it also depends on how the neighboring countries and the world treat Afghanistan. The situation will remain as it is.
Dunya: What is the future of the Afghan President Hamid Karzai?
Alex: He will withdraw the power in 2014. The general presidential elections will be held in Afghanistan. However, the government system will continue as the Taliban are not strong enough. It is unpredictable as to who would replace Karzai.
Dunya: What were the impacts of Pakistan’s influence on Afghanistan, especially regarding the Taliban?
Alex: Pakistan’s influence did not prove favorable for Afghanistan. The Pakistani establishment’s nature of relationship with the Taliban is such that it can take help of the Taliban to some extent. However, it cannot be guaranteed whether or not the Taliban implement what the Pakistani establishment asks to. If Pakistani officials want to stop somebody from holding dialogue, they simply arrest him. Pakistan is fully capable of creating hurdles in many important matters. I think Pakistani influence on the Taliban is exaggerated and Pakistan itself overestimates its influence on the Taliban. Whatsoever is the nature of relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban, Pakistan wishes to have maximum influence.
If you listen to the interviews of the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence] officials of 1990s, you would find them saying that those idiots [Taliban] do not do what we say. Even today, the situation is the same. I think there are people in the Pakistan establishment who have good relations with the Afghan Taliban and can also convince them. However, the Taliban are so self-centered that they do not do anything against their will. And probably this was the reason of their arrest. The Pakistani establishment was insecure that such leaders might create problems in future.
Dunya: What is the nature of the Taliban’s relationship with Iran?
Alex: Some Taliban groups from western Afghanistan have the support of Iran. However, it is not sure whether or not the Iranian government is supporting them. It is said that some influential figures in the Iranian government are supporting the Taliban. However, this support is more like an insurance policy: in case the US or Israel’ attack, Iran will have some resources in Afghanistan to fight the enemy. As we know Iran had faced many problems in the 1990s because of the Taliban. Iran can play a very positive role in resolving Afghanistan issues, but its relations with the US create the hurdle. Iran was barred from providing agriculture support to Afghanistan. Due to the Iran-US conflicts over nuclear weapons, Iran is unable to play diplomatic or political role to resolve issues of its neighbor, Afghanistan. The situation seems to intensify gradually.
Dunya: One imagines Afghanistan as a place full of insurgency. It gives a picture of tribal life, war and extremism. How did you find Afghanistan?
Alex: My experiences and observations are different. I have spent a great deal of time with the people. In last eight years, I have not seen anything outstanding other than the fact that a history is being written. Although there is war, missiles, and bomb blasts, you find the people carrying out routine activities when you go to markets. Whatsoever the reasons are, this country is running despite highly adverse situation. This is really interesting. I have spent more time here than at my home in London. Thus, I have more friends in Afghanistan than I have in London. And my views about Afghanistan are based on these relations. It is a different experience.
Dunya: What positive roles Pakistan can play for the betterment of Afghanistan?
Alex: So far there are positive signs regarding peace restoration in Afghanistan. The question is what are the long-term objectives of the dialogue? Many people say that the dialogues are moving toward positive direction as the Taliban leaders are being released. However, some say that it could be a treacherous maneuver. It is also questioned if the released persons are actually Taliban leaders. I do not know anything about the vision and goals of the Pakistani establishment. However, I must say that peace in Afghanistan is in benefit of Pakistan. It will help Pakistan in resolving internal issues such as extremism.
Whenever I attend any conference, the people question regarding the role of Pakistan in Afghanistan. Pakistan keeps changing its stance; thus, it becomes difficult to understand its position. I always say that if you compare Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan with that of the US, UK and India, Pakistan has been more consistent. It has consistently worked to achieve its goals. However, there is possibility that Pakistan might face problems in case peace in restored in Afghanistan because there are some elements that could move to Pakistan after withdrawal of foreign troops. Nevertheless, peace in Afghanistan is good for Pakistan.
Who Are the Taliban: Clarifying Ambiguities | Pak Tea House
February 7th, 2014 |
By Kasim Osmani
Following is a translation of an interview with Dutch researcher Alex Strick van Linschoten about the Taliban. Alex is PhD student at King’s College, co-editor of My Life with the Taliban & The Poetry of the Taliban, and co-author of An Enemy We Created. The interview was originally published in Urdu on 2013/02/03 edition of daily Dunya.
Dunya: You are working on the Taliban and Afghanistan for last eight years. What persuaded you to choose these topics?
Alex: I visited Afghanistan as a traveler not as a researcher. I think it is an interesting place to visit. I wanted to know about this country. In the meanwhile, I developed good relations with northern Afghanistan and learnt Pashto language. I am also learning Arabic and Persian. When I met Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, I realized that we really do not have enough knowledge and understanding about the Taliban movement, although, too much is written and talked about them. Thus, I started research on different aspects of this movement and wrote three books. I am also working on some more books and programs in this regard. I am astonished to notice that the West spends a great amount of wealth here, yet it does not understand the Taliban and Afghanistan. I am trying to highlight the real problem.
Dunya: The research topic of your PhD is “The identity of the Taliban movement before 2001: In the background of their narrations and statements”. In what ways do you think the Taliban have changed their strategy regarding Islamic movement after the 9/11?
Alex: The Taliban have certainly changed a lot after the 9/11 incident. The circumstances also changed. Soon after the 9/11, the Taliban’s associates were arrested and sent to Guantanamobay. They were deprived of power. The people started hating them. And within two years, the Taliban realized that there was growing hatred in the people against them. They did not realize it when they were in power. Gradually, they felt the need to bring some changes to continue their movement. Therefore, the Taliban changed their policies in many ways. They allowed music to some extent and also changed the policies regarding television and local festivals. The Taliban will announce their policy on education in the next year. Their education policy is similar to that of Afghanistan. Thus, it is true that the Taliban have changed.
However, the Taliban did not change their identity or the purpose of international jihad movement. Rather, their movement is rapidly extending to a nationwide level. I can distinguish between the Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. In Karachi, I attended different seminars and heard people as saying that there is no difference between the Pakistani and Afghan. However, I think these are two different organizations with a different history. The Taliban movement does not belong to the Pashtun, but includes a large number of Pashtun. Currently, people from other ethnicities are becoming a part of this movement. The Taliban do not use Pashtun as their identity. They just want to become a nationwide movement in Afghanistan. Pashtun has become their identity just because most of their leadership is Pashtun.
Dunya: Your co-writer Flex and you in the book “The Enemy We Created” provided a detailed account of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Tell us briefly.
Alex: The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are generally considered as one organization, especially in the US. The basic purpose of this book was to give an understanding of the relationship between the two organizations. Thus we started working on it. It was quite a job to understand the relationship between Mullah Umar and Usama bin Ladin. It was also difficult to understand the relationship between the Taliban and Arabic fighters because both of them have ideological differences. Mullah Umar did not want to be known as a weak leader, thus, he did not hand over Bin Ladin to the US. However, it was not because the both leaders had close relationship.
Dunya: If the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are two different organizations, why did the Taliban push their country into war for the sake of one person? And as you said their leaders were not closely associated, don’t you think it weakens the reason why the US attacked Afghanistan?
Alex: This is the point I want to clarify. When we were working on this issue, the people said that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda both were the same. Suppose, if they are same organizations, then the US has got a justification to permanently stay in Afghanistan and fight the Taliban. But suppose, they are two different organizations, it provides the US a justification to withdraw from Afghanistan because it has defeated the Al-Qaeda – the US officials say that after Usama bin Ladin’s assassination, the Al-Qaeda is present only in Waziristan. The Taliban are now willing to hold dialogue with the US, giving the US an opportunity to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Dunya: The Taliban emerged after the Soviet Union’s defeat in Afghanistan. They had Pakistani support at that time. Currently, the Taliban are fighting against the US. Do they still enjoy public support?
Alex: The first thing I understood about the Taliban was that they basically are Afghan and belong to urban and rural areas of northern Afghanistan. However, most of the Afghan youth, especially in Kabul, say that the Taliban are Pakistani and not Afghan. This is not true. Even today whenever the US troops arrest a Taliban fighter, they conduct surveys to trace his background. I cannot tell the exact figures; however, according to a survey, over 80 percent of the arrested Taliban belonged to Afghanistan. It means the Taliban movement has its roots in Afghanistan not in any other country including Pakistan. As for the foreign support being given to the Taliban, Pakistan did support them once. There are some Pakistani groups in different areas of Afghanistan, for example, the Fazlullah Balai group is in Kantar. However, the Taliban are basically Afghan.
As for the northern Afghanistan, the Taliban could not continue their movement without public support. However, the people support them with reservations. Some Afghan citizens allow the Taliban to stay in their homes; whereas, some allow them to stay in mosques only. After the US launched nighttime raids, most of the people avoid sheltering the Taliban home. If the Taliban had no public support, they would not have been able to continue their movement in any other area. If you talk about the public opinion, a common Afghan has two different opinions regarding the Taliban. On the one hand, you find an Afghan annoyed over the ongoing warfare; he does not want to pass through an explosive tunnel to reach market, but on the other hand, he does not want the US troops to raid his home in search of the Taliban. Thus, a common Afghan does not keep soft corner for both the US and the Taliban. However, the Afghans know that the US troops will be gone after two years and Taliban will be present. Therefore, they do not fully oppose the Taliban.
Dunya: You have closely observed the Taliban. You also compiled the memoir of Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Afghanistan ambassador to Pakistan. Do you think the Taliban leadership still trusts Pakistan after it joined the US alliance and diverted from its conventional Afghan policy?
Alex: As you know that many of the Taliban leaders were arrested and detained after the 9/11 incident. However, the Taliban leaders are being released as well. Pakistan still enjoys influence in this regard. For example, the Mullah Brothers are present in Islamabad or Rawalpindi. Therefore, Pakistan’s influence or contacts do exist in terms of presence of Taliban’s key leadership. These people can help hold dialogue. However, if we talk about the 1990s, it can be said that there was a complex relationship between the Pakistani establishment and the Taliban. It was said that the Taliban were under Pakistan’s control. However, if you happen to talk to some colonels of the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence], ones who had dealt with the Taliban, you would come to know that the Taliban never agreed to what Pakistani establishment said. Currently, the situation is the same. The Afghan Taliban do not fully trust Pakistan even knowing that Pakistan is releasing their leaders. The Taliban still suspect that the process of their leaders’ release is a part some big game. Yet, you cannot say that Pakistan completely changed its policy on Afghanistan. The Afghan Taliban do not consider Pakistan a reliable ally. Their leaders, who are in Pakistan, want to return to their homeland. Their lives in Pakistan are no less than a prison.
Dunya: How are the Taliban’s relationships with other stakeholders in Afghanistan?
Alex: They have started interacting. In this regard, a meeting was held in Paris the last week. All these groups will have to come at one platform so to bring long-lasting peace in Afghanistan. Currently, these meetings are in initial phases. The Taliban are a local group that has become a political movement. The US will be gone in a few years. Thus, the Taliban and all the Afghan stakeholders will have to gather at some platform to resolve the issues. However, many groups do not want to hold dialogue with the Taliban, for example, the Northern Alliance that discontinued formal dialogue with the Taliban after 2001.
Dunya: Can the Taliban be accused for assassination of key Afghan leader, Burhanudin Rabbani?
Alex: I am not the Taliban’s spokesman. Only the Taliban can give you a satisfactory answer. However, according the evidence, it is undoubted that the Taliban were involved in Rabbani’s murder. It is a mystery whether Mullah Omer or some local Taliban commander had ordered this attack.
Dunya: Do the Afghan Taliban consider the Tehreek-e Taliban Pakistan [TTP] a part of their movement?
Alex: Not at all. Although the TTP leaders consider Mullah Omer their supreme leader and represent them as his devotees, the Afghan Taliban and the TTP are two different organizations. In the recent past, Mullah Omer started contacting the TTP through Mullah Dadullah, Mullah Brother, and Siraj Haqqani. The TTP leadership respects the Afghan Taliban leaders. However, the nature of relationship does not allow the Afghan Taliban to order the TTP to carry out a mission. Rather the Afghan Taliban maintain formal distance from the TTP. There is a formal relationship between the two organizations that is not bound to any accord.
Dunya: Do the Afghan Taliban have reservations over the TTP using their identity and defaming them?
Alex: They have never expressed concerns as to the TTP using their identity in any statement or interview. The Afghan Taliban are struggling to achieve the status of a political movement. However, the two organizations have ideological conformity as to the US opposition or attack on Malala Yousufzai. The Afghan Taliban claim to be a separate organization; however, they cannot support their stance with arguments and details, because it might prove problematic for them in Pakistan. They do not explicitly distinguish themselves from the TTP since they frequently need help of the Pakistani Taliban. One cannot predict about their relationship in future as they have common religion and cause. However, after the US withdraws from Afghanistan, the Afghan Taliban will not need the Pakistani Taliban’s support. This might result in the Afghan Taliban openly claiming to be separate organization.
Dunya: What is the opinion of the Afghan Taliban about attacks on Pakistani Army and its people?
Alex: They do not support such attacks. Mullah Omer issued statements more than twice in this regard. He also issued statements forbidding the TTP to stop such attacks.
Dunya: So what is the basic difference between the Pakistani and Afghan Taliban?
Alex: It will be easier to tell similarities between the two! Both of these organizations have different history. They emerged in different circumstances. Many of the TTP leaders have not fought in Afghanistan. Even they are not familiar with the top Taliban leadership. Although there is a complete background, the TTP emerged after 2001. Both the TTP and Afghan Taliban do have ideological differences. Their objectives and vision are also different.
The Afghan Taliban want to set up a sharia based Islamic government in Afghanistan. They are not worried about Pakistan. Although some of them do not accept the Durand Line, their objectives are limited to Afghanistan. Indeed, the new generation of the Afghan Taliban seems to have an ideological harmony with the TTP.
Dunya: Are the Taliban willing to sign a unanimous social agreement for restoration of peace in Afghanistan?
Alex: So far the Taliban leaders I have met do not seem to have any issue with the current Afghanistan Constitution. A unanimous constitution is not the core issue of Afghanistan. There is a war in Afghanistan between two opposing groups. The problem is the game of political powers. This problem is intensifying because the money comes from abroad. Another reason is that despite a civil war, none of the Taliban warring factions ever talked about dividing Afghanistan. Their aim is to establish Afghanistan as sovereign Islamic state. Thus, a unanimous constitution is not the problem of Afghanistan.
Dunya: What do you think is the opinion of the Pakistani media, policymakers, and educated class regarding Afghanistan, especially about the Taliban?
Alex: When I visited Karachi for the first time, I met the people, talked to journalists and exchanged views with those associated with think-tanks that are working on Afghanistan. I was astonished to know their views and information about Afghanistan and the Taliban. Today, I think I should not have felt so because hardly any of those I met had been to Afghanistan. And those who might have visited Afghanistan, would not have gone across Kabul. Suppose, some American, who has never personally visited Afghanistan, writes about the Taliban or Afghanistan sitting in Washington DC. This is the problem with the public opinion. I do not like to read such analyses.
There is possibility that the people of Pakistan and Afghanistan might have ideological similarities as the both belong to neighboring countries. But the US and Pakistani mindset cannot be the same. Yet there is a room to build ideological consensus. The Pakistani media needs to send permanent representatives to Afghanistan. Though there are some exceptions, still there is a need to send more representatives to witness what actually happens here. I had many opportunities to attend seminars and conferences in Afghanistan. Believe me, the speakers are not aware of the basic facts. For example, a very few people know that the TTP and the Afghan Taliban are two different organizations. There is a reason why they do not openly claim it.
Dunya: What do you say about the Western world?
Alex: Yes, I think the West still does not know who the Taliban are, where do they belong to, and what is their agenda. When I read the US or European papers, I realize that despite spending 12 years in Afghanistan, the West still fails to understand the realities. The people do not know anything about the Taliban’s objectives and their organization. Even today, many people consider the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban one organization. I think we have not spent money in the right direction to understand Afghanistan. The West arrived in Afghanistan in 2001, claiming that it understood the country’s situation and would do its freewill. One cannot realize the actual situation unless one knows the language of that place. Probably, a few of the European diplomats know Pashto, Dari or Persian? This shows how serious they are. Actually, they presume to that they know everything, and are proud of their technology. This is the reason why most of the analyses or articles regarding Afghanistan or the Taliban that the West produces are based on assumption and wishes.
Dunya: You wrote the book “The Poetry of the Taliban”. Some media circles criticized it. What was the purpose of writing this book?
Alex: All the efforts and research behind this book was aimed at providing help to understand the objectives of the Taliban. This book is a guide to the people here and abroad. When we read the Taliban’s poetry, we realized that it had different approach than what is published about the Taliban in New York Times or Georgian. Thus, I think this book can prove an interesting material to the European readers. When you read the Taliban’s poetry, you come to know that the Taliban do have families and are human being like us. Whether you agree or not, the Taliban have a history. I just made an effort to help understand the Taliban.
Dunya: The western and critics in the region are of the view that the Taliban are extremists, and brutal murderers, and it does not make any difference if they write poetry. They are considered enemies of humanity. Thus, if you publish the Taliban’s poetry, it means you are trying to present a positive image of the extremists. What would you say?
Alex: I would disagree that they are only extremists and kill people. I have spent time with them in Afghanistan. It is true that they fight the Americans troops and even behead them. But you would find the same Taliban fighter cuddling with his kids the next day. This is the other side of the picture. I am trying to show this side. I am not saying that they are innocent people and play with their kids. But nobody looks at the other side of the picture. Most of the people in the US and Pakistan are in favor of eliminating the Taliban. When I read essays and editorials here, they also call war the only solution to eliminate the Taliban.
I think after reading the book, one would know that the Taliban also live in rural areas like us, but they have a purpose. However, if you know all the facts, it would become difficult for you to support the elimination of the Taliban. You will tend to find a way to engage them. And you would agree to my views once you read the book.
Dunya: Do you think the Taliban can become a part of democratic and political process?
Alex: The Taliban have gone through major changes since 2001. The problem is that the Taliban have never been encouraged as a political movement. We consider them armed movement and use power against them. The Taliban receive funding on grounds of being a political movement. For example, they have a small political office in Qatar where 10 to 12 people are living along with their family. These are in little number and cannot run an influential Taliban movement. Thus it is quite difficult for them to continue their political movement without facing an armed conflict. Probably the situation might change in future, especially after the ceasefire, and the Taliban might be able to change their identity and mend their ways. However, whether or not the Taliban come to such a conclusion mainly depends on the approach with which US and European countries deals with them. It depends on the West to accept the Taliban as a political movement or otherwise.
Dunya: The Taliban belong to tribal belts and have a history of armed movement. Are they capable of changing a democratic or political organization?
Alex: They understand politics. They do play politics in areas under their influence. They are capable of becoming a part of political process. However, if you ask as to how much public support they have for elections, I think it is not over 30 percent. In order to become a political movement, the Taliban need to work out a strategy and gain maximum public support.
Dunya: The US will withdraw from Afghanistan in 2014. There are reports of dialogue with the Taliban. How do you see the post-US Afghanistan?
Alex: The Afghanistan situation will remain the same. The number of foreign troops will squeeze to a few by January 2015. The Taliban will be here fighting with them. The current Afghan government will have US backing and financial support. The Afghan government will be needing investment and military assistance from the US. The government will run on these grounds. Thus, the situation will remain the same. However, it also depends on how the neighboring countries and the world treat Afghanistan. The situation will remain as it is.
Dunya: What is the future of the Afghan President Hamid Karzai?
Alex: He will withdraw the power in 2014. The general presidential elections will be held in Afghanistan. However, the government system will continue as the Taliban are not strong enough. It is unpredictable as to who would replace Karzai.
Dunya: What were the impacts of Pakistan’s influence on Afghanistan, especially regarding the Taliban?
Alex: Pakistan’s influence did not prove favorable for Afghanistan. The Pakistani establishment’s nature of relationship with the Taliban is such that it can take help of the Taliban to some extent. However, it cannot be guaranteed whether or not the Taliban implement what the Pakistani establishment asks to. If Pakistani officials want to stop somebody from holding dialogue, they simply arrest him. Pakistan is fully capable of creating hurdles in many important matters. I think Pakistani influence on the Taliban is exaggerated and Pakistan itself overestimates its influence on the Taliban. Whatsoever is the nature of relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban, Pakistan wishes to have maximum influence.
If you listen to the interviews of the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence] officials of 1990s, you would find them saying that those idiots [Taliban] do not do what we say. Even today, the situation is the same. I think there are people in the Pakistan establishment who have good relations with the Afghan Taliban and can also convince them. However, the Taliban are so self-centered that they do not do anything against their will. And probably this was the reason of their arrest. The Pakistani establishment was insecure that such leaders might create problems in future.
Dunya: What is the nature of the Taliban’s relationship with Iran?
Alex: Some Taliban groups from western Afghanistan have the support of Iran. However, it is not sure whether or not the Iranian government is supporting them. It is said that some influential figures in the Iranian government are supporting the Taliban. However, this support is more like an insurance policy: in case the US or Israel’ attack, Iran will have some resources in Afghanistan to fight the enemy. As we know Iran had faced many problems in the 1990s because of the Taliban. Iran can play a very positive role in resolving Afghanistan issues, but its relations with the US create the hurdle. Iran was barred from providing agriculture support to Afghanistan. Due to the Iran-US conflicts over nuclear weapons, Iran is unable to play diplomatic or political role to resolve issues of its neighbor, Afghanistan. The situation seems to intensify gradually.
Dunya: One imagines Afghanistan as a place full of insurgency. It gives a picture of tribal life, war and extremism. How did you find Afghanistan?
Alex: My experiences and observations are different. I have spent a great deal of time with the people. In last eight years, I have not seen anything outstanding other than the fact that a history is being written. Although there is war, missiles, and bomb blasts, you find the people carrying out routine activities when you go to markets. Whatsoever the reasons are, this country is running despite highly adverse situation. This is really interesting. I have spent more time here than at my home in London. Thus, I have more friends in Afghanistan than I have in London. And my views about Afghanistan are based on these relations. It is a different experience.
Dunya: What positive roles Pakistan can play for the betterment of Afghanistan?
Alex: So far there are positive signs regarding peace restoration in Afghanistan. The question is what are the long-term objectives of the dialogue? Many people say that the dialogues are moving toward positive direction as the Taliban leaders are being released. However, some say that it could be a treacherous maneuver. It is also questioned if the released persons are actually Taliban leaders. I do not know anything about the vision and goals of the Pakistani establishment. However, I must say that peace in Afghanistan is in benefit of Pakistan. It will help Pakistan in resolving internal issues such as extremism.
Whenever I attend any conference, the people question regarding the role of Pakistan in Afghanistan. Pakistan keeps changing its stance; thus, it becomes difficult to understand its position. I always say that if you compare Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan with that of the US, UK and India, Pakistan has been more consistent. It has consistently worked to achieve its goals. However, there is possibility that Pakistan might face problems in case peace in restored in Afghanistan because there are some elements that could move to Pakistan after withdrawal of foreign troops. Nevertheless, peace in Afghanistan is good for Pakistan.
Who Are the Taliban: Clarifying Ambiguities | Pak Tea House
