livingdead
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The Quran: Channel 4 documentary
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Levina
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Its almost 2 hrs long, I'm watching it now.
livingdead
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please tell the main points, I stopped after 30 mins... why do they make documentary sooooo loooong?Its almost 2 hrs long, I'm watching it now.
jamahir
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Its almost 2 hrs long, I'm watching it now.
it is shown on british-establishment-supporting channel... if it doesn't contain anything against khomenei or deobandis, if it doesn't contain anything in favor of jamal abdul nasser and muammar gaddafi, it is not credible.
however, i will watch it now.
livingdead
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how do you know if you have not watched...
jamahir
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livingdead
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biased mind...natural ability.
jamahir
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biased mind...
blessed mind.
----------------
@hinduguy
those males in the beginning were speaking in a strange, trance-like, immature way and the females were the smiling versions of the males and all covered-up.
sorry, but i couldn't take it anymore.
maybe @levina can tell us, if she gets beyond your half-hour.
Zarvan
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Man you seriously need to grow up
livingdead
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@levina got tonnes of patience.. I always think of her as primary school teacher teaching unruly kids.. not corporate trainer.. ha ha.
jamahir
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I have watched it earlier. It is an inconclusive documentary which leaves a confused mind more confused. It's a mixture of truth and lies, and does not give you any clue from an analytic view point. There are some bits about Quran but mostly it covers the traditional issues. If someone really wants to know about Quran I suggest he should read the life of Prophet written by any authentic traditional scholar specially of middle ages who also covered things from spiritual point of view. Please refrain from reading the books written by Saudi clerics and their sub groups - my only suggestion!
Raja.Pakistani
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this one was better by BBC
[video]
[video]
Levina
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The documentary says that this religious text has brought peace in the lives of millions, it has brought a sense of worth and dignity rarely equalled in any other civilisation. It asks Muslims to live in peace and brotherhood with ppl of other religions. It has inspired a great civilisation in which Muslims live a creative life and it gives clear moral guidelines for ppl to live by. But it is often misinterpreted.
I will start from where you stopped watching this documentary. I must tell you that the 2nd half of the documentary is very interesting and disturbing in parts where it shows how some misinterpret this holy book.
The documentary takes us to Israel and Palestine where below the dome of the main mosque lies a stone. This stone is where Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son and where Muhammad ascended into heaven ; Muslims call it gate to heaven. Jews were not allowed to pray here under the British and Jordanian rule till the place was seized by Jew army in 1967. A scholar in Palestine says the following words when asked about suicide bombings "flower needs a throne to protect it, Quran is very clear that if you're attacked then retaliate in kind. Suicides are not allowed according to Quran, Allah asked not to kill and bring misery upon oneself. But since we dont have same weapons as our enemies, this is our only choice".
Shia-Sunni:
The first country shown in the documentary has Shia majority,Iran. Shias till the the late 19th century accused Sunnis of falsification of Quran, they said Ali(the son-in-law of Mohd.) and his descendants 're true leaders of Muslims, but now nobody claims so (words of Dean of Madrassa, Isafahan). Shias believe in intermediaries like the 8th Imam called Reza, the documentary also shows ppl sharing their experiences.
The next thing that stands out is Sufism, the country shown is Turkey, where men are performing a 700yr old dance, which according to them finds its origin in the Quran and it's swirling writing pattern(whooshed over my head!!!). But the same custom is sacrilegious for the Sunnis.
The next country to be shown is Saudi-Arabia where Islam is practised in a more belligerent and patriarchal style . It is interesting how the Saudi religious establishments have augmented the religious text. For example the verses which speak of ppl who earn god's ire/anger they have inserted words "such as the Jews" and "such as the Christians".
Also in a verse which asks the followers to ready themselves for a religious war, the words "tanks, Planes,missiles" etc have been inserted.
The documentary says its Saudi Arabia which with its wealth has been spreading fundamentalism and religious extremism in the world.
A scholar calls it unfortunate that the only 2 countries which have been influencing Muslims around the world are Saudi and Iran neither of which represents the true Islam which ppl love. A human right activist in the documentary says that till sometime back religion was never a profession in Islam, even those who used to teach Quran had other professions. Unfortunately today there are many who have taken up religion as a profession, and such ppl would go to great extents to monopolize religion (like using TV and Internet to propagate their agenda).
The documentary then shows an Iranian imam who justifies large scale executions carried out in Iran. His words are so disturbing that I have decided not to post it on the forum. But does Quran justify such executions??? In Quran it is said "Cut the hands of a thief but if he repents then he should be spared for Allah is merciful". This has been often misconstrued by many. Quran is very clear that no one should be punished without conclusive proof. Sharia laws are not meant for judging and killing instead for mercy. In fact sharia laws are so high morally that such laws are impossible to implement in reality. Then a scholar gives an example that adultery can be proved only if there are 4 witnesses, which is next to impossible.
In the next part of the documentary a sharia court in Palestine is shown, where the ambiance is surprisingly peaceful and casual. A court case related to an elderly lady is shown. According to Quran the elderly lady is entitled to 50% of her son's estate if her son dies before her, the sharia court also appoints a guardian for her.
Women's rights:
Inside a nightclub in Cairo, men and women mix freely, but the women don't wear backless clothes when they go outside as there's a consensus which forces them to wear veil. Iran and Saudi have stricter laws.
What does Quean say about veil??? Quran asks women to restrain their eyes, guard their virginity, cover their cleavage, not display their adornment except for that which is apparent. The scholars give contradictory interpretation of the words "that which is apparent", some say it means there's no need to cover hands and face while others object to it.
The documentary says that according to Koran Men and women are equal in Islam. One of the verse says "men are the managers of women and God has preferred one over the other", which might mean that men are supposed to look after women financially but otherwise they are equal. Another verse says "those wives who you fear may be rebellious, punish them and beat them", a scholar says that it means beating is appropriate for certain type of women, it applies to women who is unwilling to fulfil her duties. Next verse says "your women are like land to be tilled and till them when and how you will", a scholar says that this means that a woman is not the property of a man, she's like a fertile land whom the man must take care and should not exhaust.
Female genital mutilation- 97% of women in Egypt have gone through it in one form or the other(I was shocked and in tears). An old scholar justifies saying this is the reason why Muslim women are virtuous unlike the western women who with their sexual appetite run after men, which causes adultery.
In 1972 during restoration of mosque in Sanaa capital north of Yemen, Workers discovered a very old Quran (dated 705 and 750 BC) which means it was written 70yrs after prophet's death. Unlike present day Quran this one was illustrated with drawings of mosques, which helped in dating it. This is the oldest Quran to have been found. When compared to today's Cairo text this Quran was written in short hand and it had no distinguishing wall markings (?), it also does not have any dots.
The documentary says that in such cases each individual Word could have as many as 30 words, it also means that the text wasn't passed word to word. When simple forensic methods were applied on this text, an earlier text was found which was washed off and over written.
While the earlier words did not have contradictory meanings but words had been changed and the verses and chapters were rearranged, this clearly means that verses of Qoran wasn't passed on intact.
A book called syro-Aramaic reading of the Koran by Christopher Luxembourg says that about a quarter of Qoran's words do not make any real sense. A scholar says that percentage of such words can be reduced to 5%.
Muslim scholars of past acknowledged the presence of words other than Arabic in Qoran. In the 10th century a scholar could spot Hebrew,Persian, Latin, Greek and Syriac words. This means that the undotted words were misinterpreted. The 72virgin theory has also been debunked in the book, it says if the dots are rearranged on the words then the verse would mean "you will be put under the grapes" and "not paired with hooris" as commonly misunderstood.
That's the end!
@hinduguy thanks for sharing this video.
I will not be participating in this discussion beyond this post, the reason is not hard to guess.
@jamahir
I will start from where you stopped watching this documentary. I must tell you that the 2nd half of the documentary is very interesting and disturbing in parts where it shows how some misinterpret this holy book.
The documentary takes us to Israel and Palestine where below the dome of the main mosque lies a stone. This stone is where Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son and where Muhammad ascended into heaven ; Muslims call it gate to heaven. Jews were not allowed to pray here under the British and Jordanian rule till the place was seized by Jew army in 1967. A scholar in Palestine says the following words when asked about suicide bombings "flower needs a throne to protect it, Quran is very clear that if you're attacked then retaliate in kind. Suicides are not allowed according to Quran, Allah asked not to kill and bring misery upon oneself. But since we dont have same weapons as our enemies, this is our only choice".
Shia-Sunni:
The first country shown in the documentary has Shia majority,Iran. Shias till the the late 19th century accused Sunnis of falsification of Quran, they said Ali(the son-in-law of Mohd.) and his descendants 're true leaders of Muslims, but now nobody claims so (words of Dean of Madrassa, Isafahan). Shias believe in intermediaries like the 8th Imam called Reza, the documentary also shows ppl sharing their experiences.
The next thing that stands out is Sufism, the country shown is Turkey, where men are performing a 700yr old dance, which according to them finds its origin in the Quran and it's swirling writing pattern(whooshed over my head!!!). But the same custom is sacrilegious for the Sunnis.
The next country to be shown is Saudi-Arabia where Islam is practised in a more belligerent and patriarchal style . It is interesting how the Saudi religious establishments have augmented the religious text. For example the verses which speak of ppl who earn god's ire/anger they have inserted words "such as the Jews" and "such as the Christians".
Also in a verse which asks the followers to ready themselves for a religious war, the words "tanks, Planes,missiles" etc have been inserted.
The documentary says its Saudi Arabia which with its wealth has been spreading fundamentalism and religious extremism in the world.
A scholar calls it unfortunate that the only 2 countries which have been influencing Muslims around the world are Saudi and Iran neither of which represents the true Islam which ppl love. A human right activist in the documentary says that till sometime back religion was never a profession in Islam, even those who used to teach Quran had other professions. Unfortunately today there are many who have taken up religion as a profession, and such ppl would go to great extents to monopolize religion (like using TV and Internet to propagate their agenda).
The documentary then shows an Iranian imam who justifies large scale executions carried out in Iran. His words are so disturbing that I have decided not to post it on the forum. But does Quran justify such executions??? In Quran it is said "Cut the hands of a thief but if he repents then he should be spared for Allah is merciful". This has been often misconstrued by many. Quran is very clear that no one should be punished without conclusive proof. Sharia laws are not meant for judging and killing instead for mercy. In fact sharia laws are so high morally that such laws are impossible to implement in reality. Then a scholar gives an example that adultery can be proved only if there are 4 witnesses, which is next to impossible.
In the next part of the documentary a sharia court in Palestine is shown, where the ambiance is surprisingly peaceful and casual. A court case related to an elderly lady is shown. According to Quran the elderly lady is entitled to 50% of her son's estate if her son dies before her, the sharia court also appoints a guardian for her.
Women's rights:
Inside a nightclub in Cairo, men and women mix freely, but the women don't wear backless clothes when they go outside as there's a consensus which forces them to wear veil. Iran and Saudi have stricter laws.
What does Quean say about veil??? Quran asks women to restrain their eyes, guard their virginity, cover their cleavage, not display their adornment except for that which is apparent. The scholars give contradictory interpretation of the words "that which is apparent", some say it means there's no need to cover hands and face while others object to it.
The documentary says that according to Koran Men and women are equal in Islam. One of the verse says "men are the managers of women and God has preferred one over the other", which might mean that men are supposed to look after women financially but otherwise they are equal. Another verse says "those wives who you fear may be rebellious, punish them and beat them", a scholar says that it means beating is appropriate for certain type of women, it applies to women who is unwilling to fulfil her duties. Next verse says "your women are like land to be tilled and till them when and how you will", a scholar says that this means that a woman is not the property of a man, she's like a fertile land whom the man must take care and should not exhaust.
Female genital mutilation- 97% of women in Egypt have gone through it in one form or the other(I was shocked and in tears). An old scholar justifies saying this is the reason why Muslim women are virtuous unlike the western women who with their sexual appetite run after men, which causes adultery.
In 1972 during restoration of mosque in Sanaa capital north of Yemen, Workers discovered a very old Quran (dated 705 and 750 BC) which means it was written 70yrs after prophet's death. Unlike present day Quran this one was illustrated with drawings of mosques, which helped in dating it. This is the oldest Quran to have been found. When compared to today's Cairo text this Quran was written in short hand and it had no distinguishing wall markings (?), it also does not have any dots.
While the earlier words did not have contradictory meanings but words had been changed and the verses and chapters were rearranged, this clearly means that verses of Qoran wasn't passed on intact.
A book called syro-Aramaic reading of the Koran by Christopher Luxembourg says that about a quarter of Qoran's words do not make any real sense. A scholar says that percentage of such words can be reduced to 5%.
Muslim scholars of past acknowledged the presence of words other than Arabic in Qoran. In the 10th century a scholar could spot Hebrew,Persian, Latin, Greek and Syriac words. This means that the undotted words were misinterpreted. The 72virgin theory has also been debunked in the book, it says if the dots are rearranged on the words then the verse would mean "you will be put under the grapes" and "not paired with hooris" as commonly misunderstood.
That's the end!
@hinduguy thanks for sharing this video.
I will not be participating in this discussion beyond this post, the reason is not hard to guess.
@jamahir
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