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OBL raid: "No one thought we should ask the Pakistanis -"

Solomon2

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"No one thought we should ask the Pakistanis for help or permission. In every instance when we had provided a heads-up to the Pakistani military or intelligence services, the target was forewarned and fled, or the Pakistanis went after the target unilaterally, prematurely, and unsuccessfully."

Gates, Robert M (2014-01-14). Duty: Memoirs of a Secretary at War (Kindle Locations 9868-9871). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 
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A "Chaudhary" never asks for a permission from a "Mazara".
 
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In every instance when we had provided a heads-up to the Pakistani military or intelligence services, the target was forewarned and fled, or the Pakistanis went after the target unilaterally, prematurely, and unsuccessfully."

Can we take this as definitive proof that the Pakistani authorities are NOT collaborating with Americans in drone strikes?

Mr. Gates should say this loud and clear so the TTP can hear him.
 
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Can we take this as definitive proof that the Pakistani authorities are NOT collaborating with Americans in drone strikes?

Mr. Gates should say this loud and clear so the TTP can hear him.

Can this be turn can be taken as definitive proof that Pakistani Establishment( both civilian and military) are not protecting their Sovereignty in that area ?
 
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Have you ever heard the story of two gangs of thieves working closely with each other? When head of the bigger gang discloses secrets of the smaller gang, he is certainly speaking the truth. But he fails to tell about far greater adventures of his own gang.
 
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Can this be turn can be taken as definitive proof that Pakistani Establishment( both civilian and military) are not protecting their Sovereignty in that area ?

Everyone knows about American drones violating Pakistani sovereignty, but the standard line is that there is behind-the-scenes cooperation. The TTP claim this as their reason for targeting Pakistanis.

Mr. Gates is vehemently denying this, and it should be broadcast loudly so the TTP can hear his words.
 
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Can we take this as definitive proof that the Pakistani authorities are NOT collaborating with Americans in drone strikes?

Mr. Gates should say this loud and clear so the TTP can hear him.

Everyone knows about American drones violating Pakistani sovereignty, but the standard line is that there is behind-the-scenes cooperation. The TTP claim this as their reason for targeting Pakistanis.

Mr. Gates is vehemently denying this, and it should be broadcast loudly so the TTP can hear his words.

Isnt it a little sad that you need your ally to confirm that they are violating your territory without your permission (is that war?) so that your own citizens stop killing their fellow Pakistanis ?
 
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Can this be turn can be taken as definitive proof that Pakistani Establishment( both civilian and military) are not protecting their Sovereignty in that area ?
Can we take this as definitive proof that the Pakistani authorities are NOT collaborating with Americans in drone strikes? Mr. Gates should say this loud and clear so the TTP can hear him.
51Nt5Sz4HzL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
"I wanted to get the Pakistanis to do more to end safe havens and to stop Taliban infiltration from their side of the border. As important to the United States as Pakistan is, both in Afghanistan and in the region, I would travel there only twice because I quickly realized my civilian counterpart had zero clout in defense matters (dominated by the chief of the army staff). My first and only significant visit was on February 12, 2007...

"Musharraf acknowledged Pakistani failures and problems on the border, but he asked me what a lone Pakistani border sentry could do if he saw thirty to forty Taliban moving toward the Afghan border. I responded, You should permit the sentry to warn us, and we will ambush the Taliban. He said, “I like ambushes, we ought to be setting them daily.” If only, I thought.

"I went through our very specific list of requests: capture three named Taliban and extremist leaders; give the United States expanded authority to take action against specific Taliban and al Qaeda leaders and targets in Pakistan; dismantle insurgent and terrorist camps; shut down the Taliban headquarters in Quetta and Peshawar; disrupt certain major infiltration routes across the border; enhance intelligence cooperation and streamline Pakistani decision making on targeting; allow expanded ISR flights over Pakistan; establish joint border security monitoring centers manned by Pakistanis, Afghans, and coalition forces; and improve cooperation for military planning and operations in Pakistan. Musharraf kept a straight face and pretended to take all this seriously. While the Pakistanis would eventually deploy some 140,000 troops on their border with Afghanistan and endure heavy losses in fighting there, and while there was some modest progress on joint operations centers and border security stations, we’d still be asking for virtually all these same actions years later."

Gates, Robert M (2014-01-14). Duty: Memoirs of a Secretary at War (Kindle Locations 3700-3703 & 3711-3721). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Solomon2 note: Gates' memoir isn't proof, it's testimony. Testimony isn't the same thing as proof. Proof requires physical evidence.
 
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Isnt it a little sad that you need your ally to confirm that they are violating your territory without your permission (is that war?) so that your own citizens stop killing their fellow Pakistanis ?

US is not an ally and it is not killing anyone for Pakistanis' sake.
The US pursues its own national interests.
 
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US is not an ally and it is not killing anyone for Pakistanis' sake.
The US pursues its own national interests.
I dont think the international relationships of Pakistan are determined by defence.pk members :)

Pakistan is a formal Major Non Nato ally of USA. Till recently Pakistan had hosted air bases from where American Drones and military aircrafts operated..The American military caravans are still operating 24 x 7 on Pakistani roads
 
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US is not an ally and it is not killing anyone for Pakistanis' sake.
The US pursues its own national interests.
By Gates' account it appears Pakistan isn't an ally of the U.S., as it appears to have "cooperated" mostly to frustrate U.S. efforts to destroy the Taliban and OBL.

However, that doesn't mean the reverse isn't true: that the U.S. is an ally of Pakistan. How many Pakistani terrorists and terror leaders have been felled by U.S. drone strikes? How many lives and how much property were saved by U.S. efforts after the 2005 earthquake and 2010 floods? How many billions of dollars of military and civilian development aid has America provided Pakistan? etc., etc.
 
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There are stories of several tens of people handed to America without any judicial process of any kind, in return for the bounty given to Pakistani generals. Of course, press rarely reports these events. The semblance of justice, and high ethical standards Americans want to maintain are nothing but tools to conveniently take care of their interests, right or wrong.

Of course, a lot of naiive Americans might actually believe in these values as truly being upheld in their country or by their country in rest of the world. If some American politician, diplomat or Army officer is talking about anything ethical, my first gut reaction would be to request him to cut the crap.
 
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I dont think the international relationships of Pakistan are determined by defence.pk members :)

Pakistan is a formal Major Non Nato ally of USA. Till recently Pakistan had hosted air bases from where American Drones and military aircrafts operated..The American military caravans are still operating 24 x 7 on Pakistani roads

Pakistan and the US are not allies, since their regional interests conflict.
Just because America can buy off the dime-a-dozen Pakistani elite means nothing.

By Gates' account it appears Pakistan isn't an ally of the U.S., as it appears to have "cooperated" mostly to frustrate U.S. efforts to destroy the Taliban and OBL.

However, that doesn't mean the reverse isn't true: that the U.S. is an ally of Pakistan. How many Pakistani terrorists and terror leaders have been felled by U.S. drone strikes? How many lives and how much property were saved by U.S. efforts after the 2005 earthquake and 2010 floods? How many billions of dollars of military and civilian development aid has America provided Pakistan? etc., etc.

Giving humanitarian aid does not make allies. Some foreign aid is given to buy influence and for propaganda purposes. Other aid is given for genuine humanitarian reasons.

As for the American drones killing TTP, there are Pakistani claims that the US decidedly did NOT target TTP operatives pointed out by Pakistan. The only way to kill TTP operatives was by fooling the Americans and falsely identifying TTP operatives as Afghan Taliban.
 
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Pakistan and the US are not allies, since their regional interests conflict.
Just because America can buy off the dime-a-dozen Pakistani elite means nothing.
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By Pakistani elite, I guess you mean the elected representatives of Pakistani Citizens.. Correct??

Is there a denouncement of the ally relationship between Paksitan and USA by either of the 2 govts ??
 
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