Make in India: Gurgaon-based Sun Group may partner Russia to make Kamov helicopters

[anniyan]

Make in India: Gurgaon-based Sun Group may partner Russia to make Kamov helicopters - The Economic Times

Make in India: Gurgaon-based Sun Group may partner Russia to make Kamov helicopters

NEW DELHI: Hidden in the details of the government's Wednesday big-bang 'Make in India' push in the defence production was the fine print about the Russian deal, by nomination not tender, to manufacture 200 Kamov Ka 226 light helicopters, so desperately needed to replace the ageing Cheetah fleet which services one of the world's highest military deployments on the Siachen glacier. Work on this had begun right after Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit in December.
Assurances were exchanged then at the highest levels to look into this project. What's interesting is that Goa might just be the place where the facility may come up given that a feasibility study has been conducted to set up a chopper line there soon after Manohar Parrikar, former Goa CM, took over as defence minister.

Incidentally, if this works out, this would be the second major defence project for the state. The minister has already announced that the Goa Shipyard has been nominated to construct 12 minesweepers for the Indian Navy in a contract that is expected to cost over $1 billion. While Russian Helicopters (RH) is in talks with a handful of possible Indian partners, the lead contender happens to be the Gurgaon-based Sun Group.

The deal, insiders said, may see the group cornering a significant share of the pie, which could cross $700 million. RH is likely to produce at least 200 choppers in India.

However, the company is also looking at involving Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), though partnerships with other private firms are not ruled out.The Sun Group, whose vice-chairman and founder Shiv Vikram Khemka has been a non-executive director on the board of RH since 2011, has already set up a helicopter division and is likely to be involved in the Make in India project.


While Sun did not respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by ET, company officials said things were at a preliminary stage and it was too early to comment.

Sources say the Sun Group was also an offset partner for RH in a previous competition to supply light choppers to the army. That process was, however, cancelled by the government last year.

Defence ministry officials, who did not wish to be quoted, told ET that the RH deal has effectively killed any other light helicopter project for the armed forces, including a process that was initiated earlier this year for an Indian-led JV to manufacture a new range of choppers.

Several companies, including Tata, L&T and Reliance Infra has responded to a request for information.

 

[Indian Patriot]

India's leading engineering company L&T is said to be partnering Samsung for building the K-9 SP howitzer, said to be among the world's best. This is a welcome move. The government should clip the wings of DRDO and other such PSUs who can only guzzle public tax money but fail to come out with any result. Instead involve the private sector and see how India progresses and becomes self-reliant.

 

[Manindra]

This is a simple proxy for screw driver technology.
Sun Group a proxy investor, would be manufacturer of KA-226T ?
Another day in incredible India @sancho @MilSpec @Capt.Popeye

 

[sancho]

This is a simple proxy for screw driver technology.
Sun Group a proxy investor, would be manufacturer of KA-226T ?
Another day in incredible India @sancho @MilSpec @Capt.Popeye

What is more worrying is this part:

Defence ministry officials, who did not wish to be quoted, told ET that the RH deal has effectively killed any other light helicopter project for the armed forces, including a process that was initiated earlier this year for an Indian-led JV to manufacture a new range of choppers.

Unnamed source of course, but if true the whole LUH scrapping and re-issuing was a total waste and defence deals today are decided by politics and not the needs of the forces anymore. If they wanted the Ka226, they simply could had declared it to the winner in the original tender last summer. Why scrap it, create a new tender, issue RFIs to then buy the same Ka 226 in Dec?

@MilSpec And once again HAL was degraded, from the licence production company in the original deal, to a co-partner for a privat company. Maybe even worse, since this + the still pending LUH tender can question the need of HAL's LUH. I told you HAL must move fast for JV to please the government, otherwise they will be sidelined.

 

[Prajapati]

This is a simple proxy for screw driver technology.
Sun Group a proxy investor, would be manufacturer of KA-226T ?
Another day in incredible India @sancho @MilSpec @Capt.Popeye

What proof do you have its screw driver tech ? Do you have details of the ToT agreement with you ? or compay work share ?

Or is Fertile imagination enough to rant out your frustration with the world ?

What is more worrying is this part:

How is that worrying ? If anything the light helicopter project has been successfully concluded

Unnamed source of course, but if true the whole LUH scrapping and re-issuing was a total waste and defence deals today are decided by politics and not the needs of the forces anymore. If they wanted the Ka226, they simply could had declared it to the winner in the original tender last summer. Why scrap it, create a new tender, issue RFIs to then buy the same Ka 226 in Dec?

Rubbish. You want the GoI and MoD to LIE ?

Why ? The requirement was the need of the forces, the purchase address that need. Russia offered a sweet deal and Indian accepted that deal.

HAL is still developing the LUH, once it is certified GoI and MoD will purchase that too. So how is this a problem ?

@MilSpec And once again HAL was degraded, from the licence production company in the original deal, to a co-partner for a privat company. Maybe even worse, since this + the still pending LUH tender can question the need of HAL's LUH. I told you HAL must move fast for JV to please the government, otherwise they will be sidelined.

HAL is a big grown man and not a baby to be carried by the GoI.

Indian Army has projected a need for 384 LUH. Only 197 has been cleared for now.

The total projection for all 3 forces is more than 440, so the door for HAL is still open if they can deliver. Ka 226 actaully buys HAL time to delivery on its promise.

A fantastic solution to both IA and HALs problems. Now sit and whine about Modi and Parrikar.

 

[MilSpec]

@MilSpec And once again HAL was degraded, from the licence production company in the original deal, to a co-partner for a privat company. Maybe even worse, since this + the still pending LUH tender can question the need of HAL's LUH. I told you HAL must move fast for JV to please the government, otherwise they will be sidelined.

Lets see how it works out....

 

[Abingdonboy]

Maybe even worse, since this + the still pending LUH tender can question the need of HAL's LUH. I told you HAL must move fast for JV to please the government, otherwise they will be sidelined.

Nah, I don't see it going down like this at all. The total requirement for LUHs for the IA and IAF is around 400 helos, if the GoI were going to kill the HAL LUH they would have gone for 400 Ka-226s. These Ka-226s are for the immediate requirements of the IA/IAF that will buy HAL some breathing room to get their LUH up to scratch and into service. Just like the GoI are said to be pushing for the HTT-40 now (for political reasons) they will back the HAL LUH and why not? It will be a great bit of kit.


Whilst I'm disappointed the Ka-226 was selected over the Fennec I'm at least satisfied that this will address my previous concerns about the IA/IAF having to wait another 5-6 years to replace their ancient Chetak/Cheetah. On the whole this is a pretty decent initiative. It would've been better had L&T been involved or some other established firm, Sun Group seems anything but kosher.

 

[sathya]

now that kamov got 50% of orders in light heli category,

i would nt be surprised if Gripen gets 50% in LCA category.

 

[sancho]

Nah, I don't see it going down like this at all. The total requirement for LUHs for the IA and IAF is around 400 helos, if the GoI were going to kill the HAL LUH they would have gone for 400 Ka-226s. These Ka-226s are for the immediate requirements of the IA/IAF that will buy HAL some breathing room to get their LUH up to scratch and into service. Just like the GoI are said to be pushing for the HTT-40 now (for political reasons) they will back the HAL LUH and why not? It will be a great bit of kit.

First of all, the intermediate point doesn't hold it's own anymore, since HAL's LUH will make it's first flight this year and production start is planned within the next few years too. There is hardly any difference in timeframe anymore for a foreign company to set up production in India, or for HAL to start it's own production.

Secondly, the difference to the HTT40 is, that there was no tender running for competition to HAL's trainer and that that there is no production line for the Pilatus trainer in India. Crucial differences, that can change the game, because

A) HAL now seems to have to compete with other foreign LUH's and vendors that have teamed up with Indian privat industry (Eurocopter with L&T, Sikorsky with TATA...), while they had a clear order for around 200 helicopters before

B)that they also compete with the Russian helicopter that will be produced in India anyway, which comes at least with a low unit cost (I still doubt about it's operational cost-effectivity though)

Whilst I'm disappointed the Ka-226 was selected over the Fennec

It wasn't, since that tender was scrapped and re-issued, this is a political procurement without competition. Basically a give away to Russia and we have to see, what we get in return from them. This also might be a reason, why the government has scrapped the initial tender, because otherwise they would had to evaluate the technical and financial offer of Kamov against the one of Eurocopter.
As I said, it seems that the policy of non political defence procurements is gone and the forces need to stick with what the MoD procures for them, no matter if the product is what the forces wanted or not.

now that kamov got 50% of orders in light heli category,

i would nt be surprised if Gripen gets 50% in LCA category.

Thankfully that's not possible, since the Gripen C/D production line is closed and the E delivery is aimed at 2018/19 only, similar to MMRCA or even LCA MK2. So unless the MoD suddenly goes to buy 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds, which are not much more capable than LCA MK1s, we don't have to fear such a bad move.

 

[The Great One]

Whilst I'm disappointed the Ka-226 was selected over the Fennec

Why?
Kamov has better fuel efficiency thanks to co-axial rotors, actually built for High altitude operations, Extreme modularity.

There is hardly any difference in timeframe anymore for a foreign company to set up production in India, or for HAL to start it's own production.

You have regained faith in HAL's abilities it seems

 

[sancho]

You have regained faith in HAL's abilities it seems

I simply don't see things just from a single perspective, but differ based on the case. The only Indian defence development field were we actually are successful is the helicopter field. HAL did and still is doing a great job and I said it often enough, that we (especially IN) are doing a great mistake to noth further push that field!
On the other side however there is the trainer field, where HAL has disappointed India big times with the HTT40 and the IJT, which basically forced us to buy foreign trainers instead. And even here, HAL shows excellent work in the licence production of the Hawk trainers, but fails to properly develop at least one of the trainer projects.

So give credit where it's due and criticize if needed as well!

 

[Ankit Kumar 001]

@Abingdonboy

Hi
Sir I am no expert but,
1.Ka226T is twin engines, meaning of if by any chance of one of the engine fails in the mountains, this would not mean death to our men.
2.Ka226T is coaxial, meaning it's more fuel efficient and this also means that it has short tails meaning it will require less space to land. And this is a huge bonus in mountains where we lost 2 helicopters due to this problem of small helipads last year.
3.It has the maximum load capacity at 1500 kgs.
4.It has the capacity to carry 9 men. Almost double to that of Fennec.
5.It's per unit cost is slightly lower. (Not 100% sure as I calculated myself based on this deal worth and deals for Fennec worldwide.)
6.It has a higher service ceiling, meaning it will be more comfortable at delivering Ration and troops at higher posts.
7.It's tested by the Army and it passed the tests along with Fennec.

I again repeat that I am not an expert, so if I am wrong please correct me.

Cheers
Thanks

 

[uparyupari]

It wasn't, since that tender was scrapped and re-issued, this is a political procurement without competition. Basically a give away to Russia and we have to see, what we get in return from them. This also might be a reason, why the government has scrapped the initial tender, because otherwise they would had to evaluate the technical and financial offer of Kamov against the one of Eurocopter.
As I said, it seems that the policy of non political defence procurements is gone and the forces need to stick with what the MoD procures for them, no matter if the product is what the forces wanted or not.

More twisting of Facts to push your Anti-Modi Agenda.

Where is the evidence that the procurement did not meet the requirement projected by the Forces ? Even the 36 Rafale purchase as been as per IAF requirement. GoI brought the Rafale not the MKI.

There is NO SUCH THING AS Non Political procurement .......... which is why IAF is not considering F-35 or F-16 or F-18. All defence procurement are political in nature and will have one ore many political strings attached.

How many strings attached to EuroFighter ? Russia tried to buy Mistral, what happened ?

 

[sancho]

More twisting of Facts to push your Anti-Modi Agenda.

The next one that gets hurt, when I actually point TO the facts! And if you missed it, it's the government itself that states, that the future for defence procurements is, the Government to Government route, which is exactly what this Kamov deal is. They haven't selected it as a winner of the LUH tender, which then would had been based on specific requirements of the forces and the MoD. So if you bypass these evaluation requirements and proper competitions, by making a selection only via G2G, that's a political procurement!

Even the 36 Rafale purchase as been as per IAF requirement. GoI brought the Rafale not the MKI.

Wrong, the IAF requirement is for 126 fighters, in a competition with licence production in India, the PM (not the GoI) made a political move to aquire 36 fighters, off the shelf with just offsets diverted to India.
Pretty different don't you think?

2.Ka226T is coaxial, meaning it's more fuel efficient

I don't think it's more "fuel" efficient, but that it's the more efficient rotor design, as it increases the lift capability. But the Ka226 is still a twin engined helicopter, which therefor can't be more fuel efficient than a single engined helicopter. And if a twin engined helicopter is ok, why not simply order more Dhruvs, which are also designed and developed specifically for the Indian terrain and proved itself in high altitude operations?
Also, the coax rotor should require more maintenance than a single rotor design. The unit cost could be lower in a G2G deal, but operational cost and spare security (by the fact that the Fennec is a widely used helicopter in military and civil versions), clearly must speak against the Ka 226

 

[uparyupari]

The next one that gets hurt, when I actually point TO the facts! And if you missed it, it's the government itself that states, that the future for defence procurements is, the Government to Government route, which is exactly what this Kamov deal is. They haven't selected it as a winner of the LUH tender, which then would had been based on specific requirements of the forces and the MoD. So if you bypass these evaluation requirements and proper competitions, by making a selection only via G2G, that's a political procurement!

Nope. You said "policy of non political defence procurements is gone". There is NO such thing as non political defence procurement.

More LIES when you said "government itself that states, that the future for defence procurements is, the Government to Government route,"

What the govt. actually said was "government-to-government route is better than the RFP path for acquisition of strategic platforms."

LOL. Its fun to expose your agenda.

NOW, Kamov is not a strategic platform so the reasons for selecting it is different. The LUH tender was cancelled following corruption charges and lengthy investigation conducted by the UPA govt. However kamov had cleared the technical round.

Meanwile Repeated delays in procuring new LUHs resulted in the AAC and the IAF opting for 30-35 stopgap Cheetals from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) three years ago.

However, it also faces problems as HAL has procured outdated Series 85 high-altitude rotor blades for only 20 helicopters for the AAC - with no spares - and none for the IAF as the blades are no longer manufactured.

HAL tried to substitute Type 30 rotor blades, which failed to meet not only the high-altitude requirements of its own test pilots but also those of the IAF as they generated excessive vibration and provided inadequate lift.

So the reality is Modi got. just saved IAF @ss from UPA incompetence, corruption and apparent malafied intent.

Wrong, the IAF requirement is for 126 fighters, in a competition with licence production in India, the PM (not the GoI) made a political move to aquire 36 fighters, off the shelf with just offsets diverted to India.
Pretty different don't you think?

Again caught with your pants down.

36 Rafale is a move to address the immediate need of IAF without invoking additional Risk..

Further MMRCA or similar aircrafts will be procured to satisfy the requirement. There is nothing that suggest the requirement has been rejected.

So far the offsets seems to work in Modi's and India favour, so boo hoo hoo to you.