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France, Germany vie to sell Pakistan subs

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France, Germany vie to sell Pakistan subs

Published: July 20, 2009


BERLIN, July 20 (UPI) -- Pakistan appears to be losing patience with Germany over a deal worth some $1.5 billion to boost its 10-strong fleet of submarines, or it is playing a reluctant Berlin administration against Paris.

An agreement to supply three U-214 U-boats reportedly has been awaiting a final German signature since details were worked out in a visit to Germany by a Pakistani navy delegation in April. Quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military's preference for the German subs to take up a "better offer" from France.

The French have reportedly offered to supply three submarines and to sweeten the deal by upgrading and overhauling older submarines that are already part of the Pakistani fleet. Two years ago French President Jacques Chirac reportedly wrote a personal letter to Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, urging his administration to buy French and offering the prospect of French government support and finance for new hotels and a car manufacturing plant.

The German subs on offer would be built by ThyssenKrupp at its Howaldtswerken shipyard in Kiel. The sale, which would attract low-interest finance from the state-owned KfW, is politically controversial and requires the approval of the German National Security Council, which vets the sale of sensitive military and other equipment, especially to areas of actual or potential conflict and instability.

In response to a preliminary inquiry in 2006, the Council gave a further sale of submarines to Pakistan a tentative green light. That approval raised a storm of political protest for fear that such a sale would add to the existing arms race between India and Pakistan. Last year a number of non-governmental organizations protested the supply to Pakistan of Drone aircraft and torpedoes. Pakistan is also interested in acquiring further German-made tanks and armored vehicles.

In Germany, concerns about supplying arms to Pakistan -- a nuclear power -- are increasing, attracting fears that the country could be destabilized by or even fall into the hands of militant Islamists. There are worries over the reliability of the armed forces with some element of the army said still to be sympathetic to the Taliban.

The issue is potentially divisive even within the governing coalition of Angela Merkel. In 2005 the Defense Ministry led by Franz Josef Jung -- a member of Merkel's center-right Christian Democrats -- negotiated a wide-reaching agreement with Pakistan to cooperate on armaments. A corresponding declaration of intent by the German government was blocked after opposition from Foreign Minister Frank Walter Steinmeier, a Social Democrat and his party's candidate to be chancellor at forthcoming elections, due on Sept. 27.

With weapons for Pakistan currently a hot political potato -- and only likely to get hotter -- the Federal Security Council has deferred taking any decision on the sale, pending the election.

Meanwhile India is in the process of acquiring a nuclear submarine fleet using technology from France, joining the select club of countries with submarine nuclear capability. Currently, they are the five Permanent Members of the U.N. Security Council: the United States, Russia, China, France and the United Kingdom.

© 2009 United Press International, Inc.
 
we should have deal before Indian nuclear sub goes for a trail Why Germany is playing with pakistan.
 
We should get cooperation from France to upgrade our old Agosta 70 class PNS/M Hasmat and PNS/M Hurmat in Karachi ship yard. We need also German Submarine U-214 Technology and for new submarines we should do contract with Germany. Pakistan is producing state of the art Tanks and Armed personal carrier so we need not to import such things.
 
Everything we want to get or try to get, certain controversy hits it and this again is not different. The chance of getting U boats is seeming to fade away by each day.
One thing always amuses me how come you never see these non governmental organization and left wing parties protest when India is buying. They only wake up when Pakistan decides to buy something.
 
Everything we want to get or try to get, certain controversy hits it and this again is not different. The chance of getting U boats is seeming to fade away by each day.
One thing always amuses me how come you never see these non governmental organization and left wing parties protest when India is buying. They only wake up when Pakistan decides to buy something.

Its their blatant bias. Unfortunately it comes down to selling to Pakistan, a Muslim state with nuclear arms and this scares them thus always the talk of things falling into the hands of extremists (as if Pakistan is 98% extremists and 2% ATW (Acceptable To West). They talk about concerns about an arms race, one should ask them what race? Its a race when you have two equals. India spends $30 billion a year and we spend $4 billion. They kid themselves and no one else talking about an arms race not realizing that equipping Pakistan conventionally means the nuclear rung is that much further up the chain of escalation. A conventionally capable Pakistan augurs well for the stability of the region.

Ask these morons in Germany if there is such a big concern about arms races then why do they equip the Israelis with whatever they want. The answer is that the Israelis have an iron tight grip on the German testicles for the excesses of WWII whereas Pakistan has no such leverage.
 
Well, we could still go for French subs as French will sell anything we want as long as we have cash.
 
Its their blatant bias. Unfortunately it comes down to selling to Pakistan, a Muslim state with nuclear arms and this scares them thus always the talk of things falling into the hands of extremists (as if Pakistan is 98% extremists and 2% ATW (Acceptable To West). They talk about concerns about an arms race, one should ask them what race? Its a race when you have two equals. India spends $30 billion a year and we spend $4 billion. They kid themselves and no one else talking about an arms race not realizing that equipping Pakistan conventionally means the nuclear rung is that much further up the chain of escalation. A conventionally capable Pakistan augurs well for the stability of the region.

Ask these morons in Germany if there is such a big concern about arms races then why do they equip the Israelis with whatever they want. The answer is that the Israelis have an iron tight grip on the German testicles for the excesses of WWII whereas Pakistan has no such leverage.

Spot on sir:tup: Its nice to see your post after a really long time.
In the end for a muslim country like us who also happens to be a nuclear power, self reliance is the key to success or something on similar terms like the JF-17. Good riddance.
 
Well, we could still go for French subs as French will sell anything we want as long as we have cash.

French are too cash hungry and lets not forget possible kick backs in french deals.
 
This Arm race is going very rapidly in these days. Specially with India every other day in news I am hearing India buying this, they are upgrading this etc. I think now our Arabs friends need to jump and help us some financially and Militarily. Specially people from Emirate, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.
 
what are the main differences between U214 n Scorpion subs, except the earlier is based on cell technology, powered by diesel, low noised engine, which can stay within waters for longer period of time, how comes it is better when compared to scorpion?

zardari is digging a hole for himself if all above is true, he has done it in the past in Miraj deal, he is upto now again.
 
Arabs wont do a damn thing and to rely on them is simply stupidity and by the way why should arabs help us in the first place. We should only rely on our self the assistance that can be gained from China and thats about it.
 
Well, I am pointing towards the Mirage-2000 which Emirates have. If we can get those or some stuff like that from other countries on soft loan etc.
 
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