Featured Durand Line: A Border Recognized

[Pakistan Space Agency]

There's nothing wrong with this, and in fact this should be a goal for Pakistan, not just with Afghanistan, but also with Iran.

However, such open borders in the EU did not just magically appear - they are the result of extensive negotiations and engagement between EU countries on their laws and policies. Before Pakistan and Afghanistan can even consider such open borders, Afghanistan needs to stabilize, develop its institutions & law enforcement mechanisms to at least come to a level closer to Pakistan.

I'm not against an open border with Afghanistan but they also need to respect Pakistani citizens travelling back and forth to Afghanistan.

Pakistani citizens include the non-pashtun people of Pakistan which the Afghans seem to think is unacceptable.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@

I'm not against an open border with Afghanistan but they also need to respect Pakistani citizens travelling back and forth to Afghanistan.

Pakistani citizens include the non-pashtun people of Pakistan which the Afghans seem to think is unacceptable.

Absolutely.

And again, open borders in the EU are, for the most part, beneficial for all the nations involved. Afghanistan is not just a much smaller market than Pakistan in terms of overall numbers, but the conflict there has decimated the middle class and as a result their market size is even smaller than it should be relative to their population.

How many Pakistanis are going to travel to Afghanistan for business or pleasure? At best you'll see some uptick in Pakistani Pashtun going to Afghanistan, mostly the ones who have family there. Not much of a benefit currently for the rest of Pakistan or even the majority of Pakistani Pashtun.

On the other hand, open borders in the current circumstances would result in a massive influx of Afghans looking for stability and economic opportunities into Pakistan, which in turn would cause a lot of tensions in Pakistan and animosity towards Afghans, and cause fissures instead of building bridges.

 

[H. Dawary]

My extended family is always welcome to visit, but the land is ours, not theirs, and they must respect us, respect our rules and our claim on it.

Your point is solid if we didn’t have any rights or links to that land...

I'm not against an open border with Afghanistan but they also need to respect Pakistani citizens travelling back and forth to Afghanistan.

Pakistani citizens include the non-pashtun people of Pakistan which the Afghans seem to think is unacceptable.

Fully agree with this, Anyone from Pakistan can travel to Afghanistan and anyone from Afghanistan can travel to Pakistan. Open borders, and hopefully a dual currency.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Fully agree with this, Anyone from Pakistan can travel to Afghanistan and anyone from Afghanistan can travel to Pakistan. Open borders, and hopefully a dual currency.

Absolutely. But we can't rush it. The first step is stabilizing Afghanistan internally, which is why successful negotiations between the Afghan Taliban and the Afghan regime are so important.

Next comes Afghan institution building and extending the writ of the State, especially in terms of cracking down on ISIS, TTP etc.

Engagement with Pakistan should continue in the meantime to develop a framework with various objectives & deliverables for both sides defined clearly to move towards open borders.

Also keep in mind that open borders and trade will require a unified approach, and Afghanistan will likely have to accept Pakistan's position on trade with India, assuming Pakistan's conflict with India over IIOJK continues. A Pakistani ban or restrictions on trade with India would be undermined if Afghanistan continues open trade with India since many Indian products would find their way to Pakistan through Afghanistan.

 

[peagle]

Yes Recognition that KPK is apart of Pakistan, I agree with that wholeheartedly, but not recognition of absolving ourselves of our ancestral lands.

This is essentially the crux of the matter, in essence we do not recognize a border and want open borders with KP and it should be something that should be discussed in the future. Free movements of people in the near future.

Although I can feel this is something that pains you, but I am sorry to say that you are being ignorant of facts and reality of life. You cannot take the view that this is what I want and that is all that matters, its just not right, it has to be based on some sound reasoning's.

@saiyan0321 and @AgNoStiC MuSliM have presented different kinds of valid arguments, but you seem to be repeating yourself. For example, I cannot take a view that I can have sex with any women I want because I am stronger, or I can kill anyone if I believe they have killed someone I know. The fact is, as civilised beings, we live in a world according to rules and the rules change with time and conditions applicable to a situation. You have been provided a legalistic argument, a logical argument, an emotional argument and a social argument, I would say that is fair, you have to come back with something better then, that is what I want.

You are already aware the people of KPK made a choice for Pakistan and continue to do so, I know some personally who would kill me for saying anything negative about our country, although on the face of it you couldn't call them openly patriotic.

I am going to try and expand this discussion just a bit further. The situation you are describing has always existed, because in history empires never followed ethnic lines, ruler had his kingdom and that is the area he controlled. Because there were no border controls until the adaptation of a "Nation State", the people were free to go as they please. Now, you, I and we live in a world governed by "Nation States" so we must live by rules that apply to modern governance.

I can give endless examples, but I will stick with Afghanistan,
You have Tajiks, are they free to come and go into Tajikistan?
You have Uzbeks, are they free to come and go into Uzbekistan?
You have Hazara with close links to Iran, are they free to come and go to Iran?
You have Baloch, are they free to come and go into Iran and Pakistan?

Cross border ethnicities exist all over the world, and most of them live peacefully because they accept the reality, and nothing can take away your identity. But open borders are possible only between states, not regions. for open borders you need to have peace and brotherly relations.

You also need to recognise that millions and millions of Afghans, your brothers, reside all over Pakistan as refugees with unparalleled freedom, they have done so for 40 years because all the ethnic groups of Pakistan, not just people of KPK, the Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindi, Saraiki, Balochi, all of them view Afghans as brothers and sisters, and accept them on their land for that very reason.

Look at the situation with reason and fair analysis and I am sure you will find a suitable answer, I cannot tell you what to feel, I can only present the reality on the ground and reality of life. I hope you find peace, I for one would be happy to see open border between our countries, where we can come and go freely, but for that to happen, proper steps need to be followed. Stay blessed.

 

[H. Dawary]

The same way it has been negated all over the world. The International Law and the Law of treaties. I talked about this argument that is based on old social and ethnic links and on emotions but as i have mentioned before, they are not given weightage at all in International law in the face of Treaties, recognitions and implied recognitions and if there exists such recognition then it is the right of the sovereign power over there with the mandate of the people to erect laws that govern the people. No nation can be forced to open its land border to another ( I use land border here because the law of Sea has travel rights due to sea passages and law of strait) for example can the people of Punjab that moved from Jallandhar and other areas, demand the opening of the border? Was Pakistan obligated legally to open kartarpur like corridors or is India obligated to do that in International Law? The answer no. A sovereign territory is legally fully in right to create as many border regulations as it may see fit. It is its prerogative as a sovereign nations recognized by the UN.

As for the people that traveled from India. Pakistan was a dominion under British Laws and the right to citizenship was not just granted because legally they were traveling from one end of the British India to the other Since in the Independence Act Article 18, i believe held that the people would remain as subjects of the crown and the people of the princely states that were considered as Dejure foreigners but protected persons would be treated as British Subjects. So they never had to fight for legal citizenship until 1951 when the migrations were closed and both countries passed citizenship laws.

Nobody is negating history but they are declaring that the right of the state will be above the right of a foreigner in concern to the land of the state and a foreigner is a person who is not a citizen of the state.

As i stated above. Ethnic links and emotional arguments seldom hold in court when the other party brings forth legal arguments.

We don’t

Although I can feel this is something that pains you, but I am sorry to say that you are being ignorant of facts and reality of life. You cannot take the view that this is what I want and that is all that matters, its just not right, it has to be based on some sound reasoning's.

@saiyan0321 and @AgNoStiC MuSliM have presented different kinds of valid arguments, but you seem to be repeating yourself. For example, I cannot take a view that I can have sex with any women I want because I am stronger, or I can kill anyone if I believe they have killed someone I know. The fact is, as civilised beings, we live in a world according to rules and the rules change with time and conditions applicable to a situation. You have been provided a legalistic argument, a logical argument, an emotional argument and a social argument, I would say that is fair, you have to come back with something better then, that is what I want.

You are already aware the people of KPK made a choice for Pakistan and continue to do so, I know some personally who would kill me for saying anything negative about our country, although on the face of it you couldn't call them openly patriotic.

I am going to try and expand this discussion just a bit further. The situation you are describing has always existed, because in history empires never followed ethnic lines, ruler had his kingdom and that is the area he controlled. Because there were no border controls until the adaptation of a "Nation State", the people were free to go as they please. Now, you, I and we live in a world governed by "Nation States" so we must live by rules that apply to modern governance.

I can give endless examples, but I will stick with Afghanistan,
You have Tajiks, are they free to come and go into Tajikistan?
You have Uzbeks, are they free to come and go into Uzbekistan?
You have Hazara with close links to Iran, are they free to come and go to Iran?
You have Baloch, are they free to come and go into Iran and Pakistan?

Cross border ethnicities exist all over the world, and most of them live peacefully because they accept the reality, and nothing can take away your identity. But open borders are possible only between states, not regions. for open borders you need to have peace and brotherly relations.

You also need to recognise that millions and millions of Afghans, your brothers, reside all over Pakistan as refugees with unparalleled freedom, they have done so for 40 years because all the ethnic groups of Pakistan, not just people of KPK, the Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindi, Saraiki, Balochi, all of them view Afghans as brothers and sisters, and accept them on their land for that very reason.

Look at the situation with reason and fair analysis and I am sure you will find a suitable answer, I cannot tell you what to feel, I can only present the reality on the ground and reality of life. I hope you find peace, I for one would be happy to see open border between our countries, where we can come and go freely, but for that to happen, proper steps need to be followed. Stay blessed.

Brother let me tell you the actual ground realities, there is no border...

Just because a bunch of white guys came and took pieces here and there by force did not mean there was suddenly a “border”. This border exists on paper, and people one side consider themselves Pakistanis and on the other Afghani.

Do you in fact know what Pakistan stands for? P is for Punjab, A is for Afghan, K is for Kashmir... Let’s say a person from IOK decided to make it to AJK, you’re telling me he’s going to have no rights to his ancestral lands?

What was taken by force and some BS agreements that were signed by the invaders by coercion and fraud hold no weight towards a people.

The only way you can stop people to people movements is if you apply military force, are you going to punish peoples from across for hosting their families, relatives and friends?

Right now the only underlying issue I see is that the Durand line is a cause for tension between the two nations, and I want to see it official so that it no longer causes tension and is used for political gains either by outsiders or insiders, so that peoples can travel freely as they have been doing for centuries.

 

[peagle]

We don’t


Brother let me tell you the actual ground realities, there is no border...

Just because a bunch of white guys came and took pieces here and there by force did not mean there was suddenly a “border”. This border exists on paper, and people one side consider themselves Pakistanis and on the other Afghani.

Do you in fact know what Pakistan stands for? P is for Punjab, A is for Afghan, K is for Kashmir... Let’s say a person from IOK decided to make it to AJK, you’re telling me he’s going to have no rights to his ancestral lands?

What was taken by force and some BS agreements that were signed by the invaders by coercion and fraud hold no weight towards a people.

The only way you can stop people to people movements is if you apply military force, are you going to punish peoples from across for hosting their families, relatives and friends?

Right now the only underlying issue I see is that the Durand line is a cause for tension between the two nations, and I want to see it official so that it no longer causes tension and is used for political gains either by outsiders or insiders, so that peoples can travel freely as they have been doing for centuries.

I'm afraid you are still ignoring the realities, a Kashmiri in IOK is already on his/her ancestral land, In Azad Kashmir they would be visiting their kin and only have access to the land once their legal status changes, that would happen with the permission of Azad Kashmir government, possibly and maybe also Pakistan government. They still have to follow a process, it is not an automatic right. That is a poor example, but even there it is not an automatic right. I have already given you reasons and examples, it is up to you what you choose to believe.

The fact is there is a border, I have given you a detailed explanation, but you are stuck on what you believe is right, without proving any information to back it up. Even in Afghanistan you have other ethnic groups with cross border affiliations, there is no drama about them, why are you ignoring that fact, you cant pick and choose. What you are saying is forget civilised society and follow the law of the jungle, I think we have seen enough of that thinking over past past few decades.

Regarding the white guys and the border @saiyan0321 has given you an excellent detailed explanation, you are refusing to accept reason. Brother, I hope you will find peace, because that is the only way forward. The world does not revolve around you or anyone else. We all live by rules, not personal likes and dislikes.