China to launch rocket in 2028 capable of sending crewed probe to moon

[beijingwalker]

China to launch rocket in 2028 capable of sending crewed probe to moon
Reuters
September 29, 20213:55 PM CST

ZHUHAI, China, Sept 29 (Reuters) - China is expected to launch its next generation of heavy-duty rockets in 2028 powerful enough to send a crewed spacecraft to the moon, the country's main space contractor said on Wednesday.
The new heavy-lift launch vehicle would be capable of putting a 15- to 50-tonne spacecraft on a trajectory to the moon, said Liu Bing, deputy designer at the China Aerospace Science and Technology.
It would also be powerful enough to place a probe weighing 12 to 44 tonnes on a trajectory to Mars, Liu told reporters at a major airshow in the southern city of Zhuhai, without naming the rocket.

China to launch rocket in 2028 capable of sending crewed probe to moon

China is expected to launch its next generation of heavy-duty rockets in 2028 powerful enough to send a crewed spacecraft to the moon, the country's main space contractor said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[beijingwalker]

Countdown to 2028 for launch of China’s super heavy-lift CZ-9 rocket
Published: 2:00pm, 30 Sep, 2021

The CZ-9 is central to China’s deep space ambitions. Photo: Reuters

China is seven years away from having its new super heavy-lift space rocket ready for crewed lunar landings, according to its developer.

The Long March 9 (CZ-9) carrier vehicle will be able to up to 50 tonnes of payload to the moon, or up to 44 tonnes to Mars, Liu Bing, one of its designers from the First Institute of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC), said on the sidelines of the Zhuhai Airshow on Wednesday.

“The rocket will be able to cover ranges by adjusting the number of boosters, depending on the destination,” Liu said.

The CZ-9 is central to China’s ambitions to go deeper into space. Benchmarked with the US SpaceX Starship, it is designed to send 140 tonnes to lower-Earth orbit (LEO), a giant leap from the CZ-5, China’s most powerful rocket which has an LEO capacity of just 25 tonnes.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/sci...28-launch-chinas-super-heavy-lift-cz-9-rocket

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

LM-9

 

[jamahir]

Forget Moon when will we see a Chinese crewed landing on Mars ? Or even a crewed orbital flyby ?

 

[FuturePAF]

Forget Moon when will we see a Chinese crewed landing on Mars ? Or even a crewed orbital flyby ?

If they can get to the moon, they will have caught in a big way with the US. It’s a more realistic mission, a prestige mission, one which the Soviets could not accomplish.

They would only feel obligated to go to Mars if it looked like the US planned to go soon.

A lot of what China is doing seems to be catching up with the US, and leapfrogging where making the investment makes a big difference, such as with AI.

 

[jamahir]

If they can get to the moon, they will have caught in a big way with the US. It’s a more realistic mission, a prestige mission, one which the Soviets could not accomplish.

They would only feel obligated to go to Mars if it looked like the US planned to go soon.

1. The USSR had a program called Mars Piloted Complex ( MPK ):

Russian manned Mars expedition. Study 1956. This first serious examination in the Soviet Union of manned flight to Mars was made by M Tikhonravov.
AKA: Martian Piloted Complex.Status: Study 1956. Gross mass: 1,630,000 kg (3,590,000 lb). Specific impulse: 310 s.

His Martian Piloted Complex (MPK) would have a mass of 1,630 metric tons and land a crew on Mars on a 30-month expedition.

In Korolev's defense of the N1 draft project in July 1962 he stated that he first sketched out the N1 design in 1956-1957. The requirement at that time was to support a large manned expedition to Mars. This first serious examination in the Soviet Union of manned flight to Mars was initiated by M Tikhonravov's section of Korolev's OKB-1. The study group first considered a complete manned expedition to Mars. This followed the classic scenario worked out by Von Braun's group in their Mars Project of 1948. The Martian Piloted Complex would be assembled in low earth orbit. Using conventional liquid propellants, it would fly a Hohmann trajectory, enter Martian orbit, and a landing craft would descend to the surface. After just over a year of surface exploration, the crew would return to earth. It was calculated that the initial mass of the MPK would be 1,630 metric tons, and a re-entry vehicle of only 15 metric tons could be returned to earth at the end of the 30 month mission. At the planned N1 payload mass of 75 to 85 metric tons, it would take 20 to 25 N1 launches to assemble the MPK.

MPK Mission Summary:

• Summary: First Soviet study for a manned Mars expedition.
• Propulsion: LOX/Kerosene
• Braking at Mars: propulsive
• Mission Type: conjunction
• Split or All-Up: all up
• ISRU: no ISRU
• Launch Year: 1975
• Crew: 6
• Outbound time-days: 270
• Mars Stay Time-days: 360
• Return Time-days: 270
• Total Mission Time-days: 900
• Total Payload Required in Low Earth Orbit-metric tons: 1360
• Mass per crew-metric tons: 226
• Launch Vehicle Payload to LEO-metric tons: 75
• Number of Launches Required to Assemble Payload in Low Earth Orbit: 25
• Launch Vehicle: N1

1956 During the Year - .

• Martian Piloted Complex (MPK) - . Nation: Russia. Related Persons: Hohmann, Korolev. Spacecraft Bus: TMK. Spacecraft: MPK.
  This first serious examination in the Soviet Union of manned flight to Mars was initiated by M Tikhonravov's section of Korolev's OKB-1. The Martian Piloted Complex (MPK), would be assembled in low earth orbit. Using conventional liquid propellants, it would fly a Hohmann trajectory, enter Martian orbit, and a landing craft would descend to the surface. After just over a year of surface exploration, the crew would return to earth. It was calculated that the initial mass of the MPK would be 1,630 tonnes, and a re-entry vehicle of only 15 tonnes could be returned to earth at the end of the 30 month mission. At the planned N1 payload mass of 75 to 85 tonnes, it would take 20 to 25 N1 launches to assemble the MPK.

Almost a year of staying on Mars, so the USSR seemed not that interested in a Moon landing and was seriously looking at Mars. I believe the MPK program was to be realized either in the 1970s or in the 80s. The MPK transit spacecraft would take 25 launches of the N1 rocket to get assembled in low Earth orbit. Seems complicated especially with the N1 not being a reusable rocket unlike the SpaceX Super Heavy which will launch the Starship. And the Starship can carry 100 crew members whereas the MPK can carry only six so SpaceX has benefited from radical thinking, the simplification generated after earlier decades and miniaturization of things like electronics.

2. About China I am confused by these two sections from the OP :

The Long March 9 (CZ-9) carrier vehicle will be able to up to 50 tonnes of payload to the moon, or up to 44 tonnes to Mars

The CZ-9 is central to China’s ambitions to go deeper into space. Benchmarked with the US SpaceX Starship, it is designed to send 140 tonnes to lower-Earth orbit (LEO)

Presumably the Long March 9 can take 44 tonnes for a Mars landing so why is China not looking at crewed Mars landing, even with a crew of two for a duration of a week ? I think what you said here :

They would only feel obligated to go to Mars if it looked like the US planned to go soon.

I think China is not a country to generally think radically. It's not about feeling obligated but about following others' set precedents, in this case follow SpaceX's manned program.

 

[FuturePAF]

1. The USSR had a program called Mars Piloted Complex ( MPK ):

Almost a year of staying on Mars, so the USSR seemed not that interested in a Moon landing and was seriously looking at Mars. I believe the MPK program was to be realized either in the 1970s or in the 80s. The MPK transit spacecraft would take 25 launches of the N1 rocket to get assembled in low Earth orbit. Seems complicated especially with the N1 not being a reusable rocket unlike the SpaceX Super Heavy which will launch the Starship. And the Starship can carry 100 crew members whereas the MPK can carry only six so SpaceX has benefited from radical thinking, the simplification generated after earlier decades and miniaturization of things like electronics.

2. About China I am confused by these two sections from the OP :


Presumably the Long March 9 can take 44 tonnes for a Mars landing so why is China not looking at crewed Mars landing, even with a crew of two for a duration of a week ? I think what you said here :

I think China is not a country to generally think radically. It's not about feeling obligated but about following others' set precedents, in this case follow SpaceX's manned program.

They are risk averse, for a program that is ultimately a vanity project unless a real case can be made for a commercial exploitation model for traveling to Mars. Perhaps in a few years we’ll Finns out what’s in the samples from the current US lander on Mars. If something is found worth exploring, and needing a human presence, I’m sure all major space powers will try to get out Mars

 

[zhxy]

If they can get to the moon, they will have caught in a big way with the US. It’s a more realistic mission, a prestige mission, one which the Soviets could not accomplish.

They would only feel obligated to go to Mars if it looked like the US planned to go soon.

A lot of what China is doing seems to be catching up with the US, and leapfrogging where making the investment makes a big difference, such as with AI.

I think China is more concerned with practical interests. It doesn't matter if China is behind the US, as long as it doesn't conflict with China's interests.

 

[MH.Yang]

1. The USSR had a program called Mars Piloted Complex ( MPK ):

Almost a year of staying on Mars, so the USSR seemed not that interested in a Moon landing and was seriously looking at Mars. I believe the MPK program was to be realized either in the 1970s or in the 80s. The MPK transit spacecraft would take 25 launches of the N1 rocket to get assembled in low Earth orbit. Seems complicated especially with the N1 not being a reusable rocket unlike the SpaceX Super Heavy which will launch the Starship. And the Starship can carry 100 crew members whereas the MPK can carry only six so SpaceX has benefited from radical thinking, the simplification generated after earlier decades and miniaturization of things like electronics.

2. About China I am confused by these two sections from the OP :


Presumably the Long March 9 can take 44 tonnes for a Mars landing so why is China not looking at crewed Mars landing, even with a crew of two for a duration of a week ? I think what you said here :

I think China is not a country to generally think radically. It's not about feeling obligated but about following others' set precedents, in this case follow SpaceX's manned program.

China's development in any field has its long-term plan. Any plan is based on China's needs, it has nothing to do with the ideas of other countries.
For example, in recent years, China's actions such as orbiting the moon, Mars exploration and launching a space station have been decided in 2004. It published the timetable in the newspaper in 2004.

 

[jamahir]

They are risk averse

That's it ! I see the Chinese always following precedents, never innovating and risk-taking.

or a program that is ultimately a vanity project unless a real case can be made for a commercial exploitation model for traveling to Mars. Perhaps in a few years we’ll Finns out what’s in the samples from the current US lander on Mars. If something is found worth exploring, and needing a human presence, I’m sure all major space powers will try to get out Mars

1. About the Mars samples I think there is currently no program on how to get the samples back to Earth. It is possible that SpaceX may land people on Mars ( by 2030 ) before another complicated and costly automated sample return mission is set up and the manned mission can carry a human geologist and biochemist. They can find much more than the automated rover and yes I agree with you here that it will set off manned Mars programs among the major space powers whether be in collaboration or in independence.

2. SpaceX and the other American company Relativity Space have Mars as manned destination at an near-immediate scale for exploration for exploration's sake and for philosophical reasons ( the initial phase of a second home ).

China's development in any field has its long-term plan. Any plan is based on China's needs, it has nothing to do with the ideas of other countries.
For example, in recent years, China's actions such as orbiting the moon, Mars exploration and launching a space station have been decided in 2004. It published the timetable in the newspaper in 2004.
View attachment 781772

1. "Long-term" is just an excuse for inaction and not taking risks by China. Elon wants to retire on Mars and is not waiting for three generations after him for people to get to Mars.

2. So if China had a declared Mars goal in 2004 why hasn't it done anything about it in 17 years ?

I think China is more concerned with practical interests. It doesn't matter if China is behind the US, as long as it doesn't conflict with China's interests.

Excuses.

 

[MH.Yang]

That's it ! I see the Chinese always following precedents, never innovating and risk-taking.



1. About the Mars samples I think there is currently no program on how to get the samples back to Earth. It is possible that SpaceX may land people on Mars ( by 2030 ) before another complicated and costly automated sample return mission is set up and the manned mission can carry a human geologist and biochemist. They can find much more than the automated rover and yes I agree with you here that it will set off manned Mars programs among the major space powers whether be in collaboration or in independence.

2. SpaceX and the other American company Relativity Space have Mars as manned destination at an near-immediate scale for exploration for exploration's sake and for philosophical reasons ( the initial phase of a second home ).



1. "Long-term" is just an excuse for inaction and not taking risks by China. Elon wants to retire on Mars and is not waiting for three generations after him for people to get to Mars.

2. So if China had a declared Mars goal in 2004 why hasn't it done anything about it in 17 years ?



Excuses.

India is only a assembled country, while China is a civilization disguised as a country, we are different.
For China, decades or even hundreds of years are very short. China has patience and capital to wait. China likes to finish the plan step by step and on time.
I won't say much about the Indian plan, you know it. we are different.

 

[KampfAlwin]

That's it ! I see the Chinese always following precedents, never innovating and risk-taking.



1. About the Mars samples I think there is currently no program on how to get the samples back to Earth. It is possible that SpaceX may land people on Mars ( by 2030 ) before another complicated and costly automated sample return mission is set up and the manned mission can carry a human geologist and biochemist. They can find much more than the automated rover and yes I agree with you here that it will set off manned Mars programs among the major space powers whether be in collaboration or in independence.

2. SpaceX and the other American company Relativity Space have Mars as manned destination at an near-immediate scale for exploration for exploration's sake and for philosophical reasons ( the initial phase of a second home ).



1. "Long-term" is just an excuse for inaction and not taking risks by China. Elon wants to retire on Mars and is not waiting for three generations after him for people to get to Mars.

2. So if China had a declared Mars goal in 2004 why hasn't it done anything about it in 17 years ?



Excuses.

Damn you drank the Musk kool-aid lol, I thought your a commie and hate those people. You think without practical experience in outer body colonisation, China should just immediately attempt a Mars mission? THINK! Moon landing and base is a stepping stone towards a Mars landing, just like how the Chang'e missions were a stepping stone to Tianwen-1.

Actually, China and US can certainly attempt a Mars landing in maybe 5-10 years, provided the astronauts don't come back and have nothing to survive on the planet. THINK! China's plan is practical, accumulate experience from a Moon base mission and then try to apply those to Mars.

 

[Falconless]

So the race to the moon and Mars is between Elon Musk and China?

 

[KampfAlwin]

Why me being a commie should automatically mean hate for Musk and co. ? SpaceX and Relativity are advancing human aspirations. Though I certainly dislike the Tesla car company. A Singaporean minister has said that Tesla sells lifestyles and not solutions, or something to that effect. I think this minister would not have said that if Tesla company would have been sensible and produced public transport buses and cheap taxis that ran on say flow-cell-based electric motors or hydrogen.



When Yuri Gagarin went to space what practical experience did humans have ? Or when the Americans went to the moon ?



The situations of Moon and Mars are somewhat different.

On Mars the Perseverance rover of NASA is carrying test a test machine called MOXIE which converts Martian air to oxygen. Another method called the Sabatier Process can be used to convert Martian air to Methane which can be used as liquidized rocket fuel along with oxygen to burn it. Is this available on the Moon ? I don't remember if ice deposits have been actually been found on the Moon to convert to rocket fuel and human-use water.

Why do you say the Martian human landers will have nothing to survive ? There is the Vertical Farming technique combined with hydroponics though the fertilizer will initially have to be carried with the landers but maybe local elements can be processed to make local fertilizer. And please read this recent thread of mine :

Leonardo DiCaprio invests in two lab-grown meat startups

Leonardo DiCaprio invests in two lab-grown meat startups New York, Sept 22 (AFP) Sep 22, 2021 US actor and climate activist Leonardo DiCaprio has taken an investment in two different lab-grown meat startups, the companies announced Wednesday. DiCaprio has bought an unspecified stake in Aleph...

defence.pk

Besides, Mars is lesser of a radiation threat than the atmosphere-less Moon.

I think going to Mars will push human ingenuity more than going to Moon.

I already told you, a Mars mission is possible within 10 years, provided they don’t come back. The early Moon missions are far closer to Earth and shorter. No need to wait 6 months to travel back, so not a huge engineering challenge to ensure survival.

Btw, your comparison of Moon-Mars to Earth-Space doesn’t make any sense. Sending a person to Mars is much, much harder than sending a person to space or to the Moon. There needs to be comprehensive studies done on outer body colonization and the Moon makes perfect sense.

 

[jamahir]

So the race to the moon and Mars is between Elon Musk and China?

On the American side there is SpaceX yes but there is also Relativity Space which has its own thought about manned Mars missions.

China has a plan of collaborating with Russia on a joint Moon exploration.

I already told you, a Mars mission is possible within 10 years, provided they don’t come back.

What do you mean ?

The early Moon missions are far closer to Earth and shorter. No need to wait 6 months to travel back, so not a huge engineering challenge to ensure survival.

I believe it takes two or three days to get from the Moon to Earth so you will have to ensure a proper mechanism for emergencies here too.

There needs to be comprehensive studies done on outer body colonization and the Moon makes perfect sense.

In how many ways has the American moon landings helped human space advancement, something that living experience from decades of low Earth orbit hasn't helped ? As one example the gravity on Mars and the Moon are different so at least there we have a different situation for human living.