Could Rooivalk make a comeback

[Quwa]

Interesting article from Defence Web outlining the possible resurrection of the Rooivalk program. I'm pasting some relevant excerpts. Some interesting points:

1. The Rooivalk 2 is garnering interest from several countries, including Poland and Nigeria.

2. The Rooivalk 2 will not be a radical re-design of the original, the core airframe and engines will remain the same, though the electronics and weapons suites will be thoroughly upgraded.

3. With enough funding partners as well as good starting customer-base, the Rooivalk 2 can be put into production in four years.

4. Funding partners will have the opportunity to ToT from MRO as well as local production.

5. A lot of the technology is owned by Denel, but some critical components, such as gearbox and rotor system, are from Airbus Defence and Space.

My commentary:

The Rooivalk 2 is an interesting program. Denel is taking a low-risk approach by retaining the airframe and propulsion, though I do expect it will alter the airframe a bit, at least in terms of incorporating a higher proportion of composite materials. Although Airbus DS is an obstruction, especially for prospective customers that might be interested in heavy ToT, I don't think Airbus DS will pose many problems. If they do, Denel can probably exchange its know-how with China, who in turn could sell the necessary technology (rotors, gearbox and transmission). In fact, the Rooivalk 2 might even interest the PLA from the standpoint of serving as a basis for their AH-64-class helicopter.

In regards to the Pakistan Army. The AH-1Z and older Cobras will form the mainstay of its dedicated attack helicopter fleet for the foreseeable future. While I would have liked the Z-10 to serve along with the AH-1Z, it is unclear exactly what will happen on that front. The Rooivalk 2 ought to be considered as a long-term route to resolve our dedicated attack helicopter needs. Cost could be a problem, but then again, if scaled into the long-term and acquired on an incremental basis, especially through local production (which would probably max out to a handful of helicopters a year anyways, due to our infancy), the program could be feasible.

Feature: Denel pushing Rooivalk Mk 2, export orders | defenceWeb

Denel is in discussions with various government departments including the South African Air Force (SAAF) on upgrading the Rooivalk combat helicopter and developing a next generation Rooivalk Mk 2, which is being marketed to potential foreign clients.

Denel revealed plans for the next generation Rooivalk during a demonstration event at the Denel Overberg Test Range (DOTR) in the Western Cape earlier this month, during which the Rooivalk fired two Mokopa precision guided missiles as part of ongoing qualification testing.

Mike Kgobe, CEO of Denel Aviation, told defenceWeb that the demonstration was based on renewed interest expressed in the helicopter, especially following its performance with the United Nations in the Democratic Republic of Congo. He said February’s demonstration was aimed at talking to the broader community about the Rooivalk, with interested countries present at the demonstration, including delegations from Poland and Nigeria. Poland is currently seeking new attack helicopters under its Kruk programme while Nigeria has an urgent operational requirement for attack helicopters to combat Boko Haram militants.

“Denel is open to partnership possibilities regarding the Rooivalk and we are open to discussing these capabilities,” Kgobe said.

Denel officials said that international interest in the programme was revitalised with the support of the South African government and the successful deployment of the system in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The next generation Rooivalk will feature better sights, improved firepower, greater payload and better survivability amongst other improvements, he said. The airframe and engines are still deemed satisfactory and would not be changed in a future upgrade.

“Denel Aviation is interested in seeking partners and clients in the development of a new generation Rooivalk…In this process, significant opportunities exist for technology transfer as well as production and MRO participation. In order to exploit the intellectual property vested in Rooivalk at an economically feasible level a broad client base would be required,” Denel said.

“Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established.”

Jan Wessels, Denel Group COO, said that Rooivalk production is “inevitable” and called on potential partners to join in the programme. Funding has been made available from Denel Aviation to proceed with upgrading the Rooivalk and the company has brought back the Rooivalk jigs in anticipation of producing the Mk 2.

Denel estimated that it would take only four years to put the Rooivalk Mk 2 into service, including the development of prototypes, establishment of production, and production and assembly for launch customers.

When promoting the Rooivalk to potential foreign clients, Denel emphasised the importance of eliminating OEM (original equipment manufacturer) restrictions and controlling intellectual property, noting that the Rooivalk’s intellectual property is vested in Denel Aviation. However, the main gearbox and main and tail rotor system (the dynamic components) are based on the Airbus Helicopters Super Puma/Oryx. Hugh Petersen, Executive Manager: Business Development at Denel Aviation, told defenceWeb that as Airbus Helicopters owns the intellectual property on the dynamic components so Denel has been in talks with them on the supply of these items.

@Horus @Bratva @Oscar @Tank131 @Zarvan @araz @waz @HRK @Khafee

 

[Zarvan]

Interesting article from Defence Web outlining the possible resurrection of the Rooivalk program. I'm pasting some relevant excerpts. Some interesting points:

1. The Rooivalk 2 is garnering interest from several countries, including Poland and Nigeria.

2. The Rooivalk 2 will not be a radical re-design of the original, the core airframe and engines will remain the same, though the electronics and weapons suites will be thoroughly upgraded.

3. With enough funding partners as well as good starting customer-base, the Rooivalk 2 can be put into production in four years.

4. Funding partners will have the opportunity to ToT from MRO as well as local production.

5. A lot of the technology is owned by Denel, but some critical components, such as gearbox and rotor system, are from Airbus Defence and Space.

My commentary:

The Rooivalk 2 is an interesting program. Denel is taking a low-risk approach by retaining the airframe and propulsion, though I do expect it will alter the airframe a bit, at least in terms of incorporating a higher proportion of composite materials. Although Airbus DS is an obstruction, especially for prospective customers that might be interested in heavy ToT, I don't think Airbus DS will pose many problems. If they do, Denel can probably exchange its know-how with China, who in turn could sell the necessary technology (rotors, gearbox and transmission). In fact, the Rooivalk 2 might even interest the PLA from the standpoint of serving as a basis for their AH-64-class helicopter.

In regards to the Pakistan Army. The AH-1Z and older Cobras will form the mainstay of its dedicated attack helicopter fleet for the foreseeable future. While I would have liked the Z-10 to serve along with the AH-1Z, it is unclear exactly what will happen on that front. The Rooivalk 2 ought to be considered as a long-term route to resolve our dedicated attack helicopter needs. Cost could be a problem, but then again, if scaled into the long-term and acquired on an incremental basis, especially through local production (which would probably max out to a handful of helicopters a year anyways, due to our infancy), the program could be feasible.

Feature: Denel pushing Rooivalk Mk 2, export orders | defenceWeb



@Horus @Bratva @Oscar @Tank131 @Zarvan @araz @waz @HRK @Khafee

I don't see this helicopter coming to Pakistan although it can find market in most Muslim and African countries and few in South America. For Pakistan I think MI-35 order will be increased and MI-28 will be tested and T-129 will be back in the Game if @fatman17 claim of WZ-10 being rejected by Army is true.

 

[C130]

not sure how Rooivalk can make a comeback with an updated version.

the market is already full of attack helicopters designs.

it would have to seriously undercut the competition while retaining the same performance.

 

[Quwa]

I don't see this helicopter coming to Pakistan although it can find market in most Muslim and African countries and few in South America. For Pakistan I think MI-35 order will be increased and MI-28 will be tested and T-129 will be back in the Game if @fatman17 claim of WZ-10 being rejected by Army is true.

I don't think T-129 will be re-considered. It's a Western platfrom with key U.S. components, the Army might as well just ask for more AH-1Z at that point. As for Mi-28, I doubt it. It looks like a good platform, but it hasn't been adopted widely enough to be a 'sanction-proof' system. Yes, the PAA did buy the AH-1Z, but can it stomach a second massively risky solution? For the same reason as T-129, I don't think the Mi-28 would be considered.

The PAA will either wait for the Z-10 to get better, or it could consider joining a program such as Rooivalk 2, but with the added aim of technology transfer for MRO and local production. In that case, even if it ends up being one of two or three users, it at least won't need to worry about spare-parts or new units.

not sure how Rooivalk can make a comeback with an updated version.

the market is already full of attack helicopters designs.

it would have to seriously undercut the competition while retaining the same performance.

Looks like Denel is aiming for cost. Sticking with the current design (albeit with some upgrades and changes) is a low-risk approach, and the South African gov't knows full well that if it has a shot, it'd be with making headway in developing world markets.

 

[Zarvan]

I don't think T-129 will be re-considered. It's a Western platfrom with key U.S. components, the Army might as well just ask for more AH-1Z at that point. As for Mi-28, I doubt it. It looks like a good platform, but it hasn't been adopted widely enough to be a 'sanction-proof' system. Yes, the PAA did buy the AH-1Z, but can it stomach a second massively risky solution? For the same reason as T-129, I don't think the Mi-28 would be considered.

The PAA will either wait for the Z-10 to get better, or it could consider joining a program such as Rooivalk 2, but with the added aim of technology transfer for MRO and local production. In that case, even if it ends up being one of two or three users, it at least won't need to worry about spare-parts or new units.


Looks like Denel is aiming for cost. Sticking with the current design (albeit with some upgrades and changes) is a low-risk approach, and the South African gov't knows full well that if it has a shot, it'd be with making headway in developing world markets.

Sir Pakistan will test MI 28. Russia during IDEX 2014 offered it along with 3 different Air Defence systems. Yes it isn't widely adopted yet but Pakistan should lease 3 MI-28 and test them in Pakistan. As for T-129 yes till now most components are USA but Turkey is working fast to get them replaced with local ones. They have also started work on developing local engine for it. But yes WZ-10 is getting upgraded and has seen few up gradations in recently produced WZ-10 so it can make a comeback.

 

[tarrar]

I don't see this helicopter coming to Pakistan although it can find market in most Muslim and African countries and few in South America. For Pakistan I think MI-35 order will be increased and MI-28 will be tested and T-129 will be back in the Game if @fatman17 claim of WZ-10 being rejected by Army is true.

Try to understand that T129 uses American engine, so it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will be able to acquire them.

@Quwa Rooivalk 2 looks good but I believe it is highly unlike that Pakistan will wait long for Rooivalk's come back. About WZ10, I thought Pakistan has placed an order for WZ10 with some changes.

 

[Zarvan]

Try to understand that T129 uses American engine, so it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will be able to acquire them.

@Quwa Rooivalk 2 looks good but I believe it is highly unlike that Pakistan will wait long for Rooivalk's come back. About WZ10, I thought Pakistan has placed an order for WZ10 with some changes.

I know but USA will find it hard to say no to Turkey when it comes to engine sales and also Turkey is developing its own engine and it would come really soon

 

[tarrar]

I know but USA will find it hard to say no to Turkey when it comes to engine sales and also Turkey is developing its own engine and it would come really soon

US has already said no in the past & if Turkey is truly making its own engines then it will take time before they are officially inducted & used by Turkey.

 

[Tank131]

The ironic thing is that the T-129 was blocked by US not for political reason per se, but economic ones. We wanted PA to buy only our stuff (yes it is political but not for the reasons normally given).

That being said, any rooivalk deal needs to be examined in a wider context of creating in roads with SA and the potential of a Pakistani /SA defense partnership has. With the potential for Denel to be a leading provider of weaponry for JF-17 (via a darter and marlin, as well as any a2g weaponry), PAF will already be a potential partner for SA. If PN can utilize umkhonto versions for any future frigate and the PA goes rooivalk, we could see a very well intrenched integration of the defense industries of both nations leading to potentially massive oppurtunities for ToT and local manufacturing in Pakistan. One could potentially see a sort of affiliation on future projects between PAC, Denel and AWC.

Physically, it is nearly a match for apache (though electronically im not so sure)

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Rooivalk is one of most heavily equipped helicopter .. 30 mm with six hard points gives it a good punch .. however it only lacks in good electronics, and counter measure ..

 

[HRK]

Interesting article from Defence Web outlining the possible resurrection of the Rooivalk program. I'm pasting some relevant excerpts. Some interesting points:

1. The Rooivalk 2 is garnering interest from several countries, including Poland and Nigeria.

2. The Rooivalk 2 will not be a radical re-design of the original, the core airframe and engines will remain the same, though the electronics and weapons suites will be thoroughly upgraded.

3. With enough funding partners as well as good starting customer-base, the Rooivalk 2 can be put into production in four years.

4. Funding partners will have the opportunity to ToT from MRO as well as local production.

5. A lot of the technology is owned by Denel, but some critical components, such as gearbox and rotor system, are from Airbus Defence and Space.

My commentary:

The Rooivalk 2 is an interesting program. Denel is taking a low-risk approach by retaining the airframe and propulsion, though I do expect it will alter the airframe a bit, at least in terms of incorporating a higher proportion of composite materials. Although Airbus DS is an obstruction, especially for prospective customers that might be interested in heavy ToT, I don't think Airbus DS will pose many problems. If they do, Denel can probably exchange its know-how with China, who in turn could sell the necessary technology (rotors, gearbox and transmission). In fact, the Rooivalk 2 might even interest the PLA from the standpoint of serving as a basis for their AH-64-class helicopter.

In regards to the Pakistan Army. The AH-1Z and older Cobras will form the mainstay of its dedicated attack helicopter fleet for the foreseeable future. While I would have liked the Z-10 to serve along with the AH-1Z, it is unclear exactly what will happen on that front. The Rooivalk 2 ought to be considered as a long-term route to resolve our dedicated attack helicopter needs. Cost could be a problem, but then again, if scaled into the long-term and acquired on an incremental basis, especially through local production (which would probably max out to a handful of helicopters a year anyways, due to our infancy), the program could be feasible.

Feature: Denel pushing Rooivalk Mk 2, export orders | defenceWeb



@Horus @Bratva @Oscar @Tank131 @Zarvan @araz @waz @HRK @Khafee

The basic question we should first ask to ourselves that what is the maximum numbers of Gunship helicopter Pakistan requir .... ??

Currently we have ~ 40 (possibly less than 40) Cobra Helicopter,

For future needs even if we keep dedicated resource for counterinsurgency ops requirement in FATA on permanent basis add another 10-15 gunships for Balochistan, plus Marine Force 'may' require dedicated gunship for their operations in Southern Sindh & Rann of Kutch area at some point in time with their evolving role; now further add some numbers assuming that army will not only replace all of the aging Cobras one on one basis but will add more numbers to counter eastern threat let say 60, this mean our maximum requirement by any far stretch calculation is around 100-110 gunships helicopters

Now the second question: Can we fulfill all this required numbers with a single platform or with multiple platform ... ??

We are bound to have multiple platforms for obvious reasons specially when we are already acquiring 15 AH-1Z & I have a feeling that we may like to have 10-15 additional Vipers increasing their number up to 25-30 so this leave us the room for 70 to 80 other gunships at max, now out of these 70-80 how many of the gunships helicopters we want (more importantly 'afford') to be in the AH-64D class helicopter ... even if we split the numbers in half 35 to 40 is the maximum numbers.

Here at this stage we need to understand the international sales prospect including Partner Nation commitments which in my opinion might not be strong in numbers, from our perspective for having a successful program S. Africa & any other partner Nation (i don't see Nigeria as a prospective partner in this projects as their number of requirements could be less than 50 units) should commit at least 50 each with at least 150 International sales so that unit cost could be capped at $ 30 to 35 million; anything above this price range would be difficult for us to afford.

 

[Zarvan]

Rooivalk is one of most heavily equipped helicopter .. 30 mm with six hard points gives it a good punch .. however it only lacks in good electronics, and counter measure ..

6 hard points than we should have a look also because it would way to easy to get weapons from South Africa than Europe

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Worthy platform , if it comes to Pakistan Army & Kamra Complex

However Pakistan already has future with Z-10

The Chinese design and Engineering on this helicopter is quite lovely just looks stunning

a) No issue with Local production
b) No issue with engines
c) No shortage of ammunition
d) Future upgrades

A friend in hand is worth 2 in bush


Z-10 is the machine for me 100% look at it's beauti

Really love the color scheme , the design the front and curves specially the left one

and one more view

This Helicopter screams Awesomeness

Z-10 should be standard Gun ship for Army 250 Choppers induction planned over 8 year program. 200 Split between western and eastern borders , and 50 in storage for need

With the Z-10 we know we are getting Modern Chopper , no wait time no negotiations
China-Pakistan have good Trade relations

Why time waste when we can have Z-10 Today

Pakistan Army deserves the Air protection with Gun ships and Z-10 can deliver what we need!
No need to wait 10 years to get first delivery of Rooivak after 10 years , Z-10 can start arriving with in 1 month

Oh wait we already started to get deliveries

We have what 1 Million Troops ? Seriously can Million Troops be protected with just 30 Cobras ?

We need 350 Choppers with need about 100 choppers as spare in Storage

Distribution possibilities

75 KPK
75 Baluchistan
75 Sindh
75 Punjab
50 Azad Kashmir

The way it should be - the real requirement

You can't protect a nation with 15 choppers or very old models of cobras , they are ok for limited time



With South African Chopper
You got to spend time and effort to find investors , arrange for cash , then work for years on negotiation , and then apply for permits for certain technology then have to wait for clearance and then new rework starts , may have delays , and hurdles 4 year delivery may become 7 years wait

With Z-10 it is ready on production line just fill the order 350 choppers ordered Done , no need to seek new choppers for 15 years

 

[Zarvan]

Worthy platform , if it comes to Pakistan Army & Kamra Complex

However Pakistan already has future with Z-10

The Chinese design and Engineering on this helicopter is quite lovely just looks stunning

a) No issue with Local production
b) No issue with engines
c) No shortage of ammunition
d) Future upgrades

A friend in hand is worth 2 in bush


Z-10 is the machine for me 100% look at it's beauti

Really love the color scheme , the design the front and curves specially the left one

and one more view

This Helicopter screams Awesomeness

Z-10 should be standard Gun ship for Army 250 Choppers induction planned over 8 year program. 200 Split between western and eastern borders , and 50 in storage for need

With the Z-10 we know we are getting Modern Chopper , no wait time no negotiations
China-Pakistan have good Trade relations

Why time waste when we can have Z-10 Today

Pakistan Army deserves the Air protection with Gun ships and Z-10 can deliver what we need!
No need to wait 10 years to get first delivery of Rooivak after 10 years , Z-10 can start arriving with in 1 month

Oh wait we already started to get deliveries

We have what 1 Million Troops ? Seriously can Million Troops be protected with just 30 Cobras ?

We need 350 Choppers with need about 100 choppers as spare in Storage

Distribution possibilities

75 KPK
75 Baluchistan
75 Sindh
75 Punjab
50 Azad Kashmir

The way it should be - the real requirement

You can't protect a nation with 15 choppers or very old models of cobras , they are ok for limited time



With South African Chopper
You got to spend time and effort to find investors , arrange for cash , then work for years on negotiation , and then apply for permits for certain technology then have to wait for clearance and then new rework starts , may have delays , and hurdles 4 year delivery may become 7 years wait

With Z-10 it is ready on production line just fill the order 350 choppers ordered Done , no need to seek new choppers for 15 years

350 ??????????????? Are you serious dude at maximum we need 120 dedicated attack helicopters. Secondly I would like to wait latest version of Denel Rooivalk which is numbered II as for WZ-10 it's rejected by Army I think T-129 and MI-28 have most chances

 

[C130]

Worthy platform , if it comes to Pakistan Army & Kamra Complex

However Pakistan already has future with Z-10

The Chinese design and Engineering on this helicopter is quite lovely just looks stunning

a) No issue with Local production
b) No issue with engines
c) No shortage of ammunition
d) Future upgrades

A friend in hand is worth 2 in bush


Z-10 is the machine for me 100% look at it's beauti

Really love the color scheme , the design the front and curves specially the left one

and one more view

This Helicopter screams Awesomeness

Z-10 should be standard Gun ship for Army 250 Choppers induction planned over 8 year program. 200 Split between western and eastern borders , and 50 in storage for need

With the Z-10 we know we are getting Modern Chopper , no wait time no negotiations
China-Pakistan have good Trade relations

Why time waste when we can have Z-10 Today

Pakistan Army deserves the Air protection with Gun ships and Z-10 can deliver what we need!
No need to wait 10 years to get first delivery of Rooivak after 10 years , Z-10 can start arriving with in 1 month

Oh wait we already started to get deliveries

We have what 1 Million Troops ? Seriously can Million Troops be protected with just 30 Cobras ?

We need 350 Choppers with need about 100 choppers as spare in Storage

Distribution possibilities

75 KPK
75 Baluchistan
75 Sindh
75 Punjab
50 Azad Kashmir

The way it should be - the real requirement

You can't protect a nation with 15 choppers or very old models of cobras , they are ok for limited time



With South African Chopper
You got to spend time and effort to find investors , arrange for cash , then work for years on negotiation , and then apply for permits for certain technology then have to wait for clearance and then new rework starts , may have delays , and hurdles 4 year delivery may become 7 years wait

With Z-10 it is ready on production line just fill the order 350 choppers ordered Done , no need to seek new choppers for 15 years

With Z-10 it is ready on production line just fill the order 350 choppers ordered Done


who is going to pay for those?