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US Navy Studies Building 3 Virginia-Class Attack Subs Per Year

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US Navy Studies Building 3 Virginia-Class Attack Submarines Per Year
Apr 17, 2015 | by Kris Osborn

The Navy is investigating the prospect of building three new Virginia-class attack submarines per year instead of two in order to boost the size of the fleet as more Los Angeles-class submarines retire.

Rear Adm. Joseph Tofalo, Director of Undersea Warfare, said he expects to receive answers in May to his question of whether ship builders could build three submarines per year.

"The biggest issue is finding the man power pool in an economy that is also coming back. That is probably the biggest challenge. During the decade of the 80s this country built three SSNs (attack submarines) and one SSBN (ballistic missile submarine) every year for about a decade. This country can do amazing things when challenged," Tofalo said.

In total, the Navy will have 71 submarines in 2016, including 14 nuclear-armed Ohio-class submarines, or SSBNs; four Ohio-class submarines converted to conventionally armed guided-missile boats, or SSGNs; Los Angeles-class fast attack submarines, or SSNs; three Sea Wolf submarines and 11 Virginia-class submarines, also SSNs.

Even though the Navy is currently producing two new Virginia-class attack submarines each year, an anticipated shortfall of submarines is expected to grow worse in coming years as more Los Angeles-class fast-attack submarines retire at a faster pace than Virginia subs are added. Senior Navy leaders have suggested that the service may delay retirement of some Los Angeles-class boats.

"We are going to drop below the minimum requirement of 48 (attack submarines) even with the two per year build rate – so we've got to sustain that two-per year build rate and figure out ways to work through that trough, or a low point. Unfortunately, we will go down to 41 SSNs at one point," Tofalo said.

The Virginia-class attack submarine inventory will drop to 41 in 2029, according to the Navy's recently released 2016 30-year shipbuilding plan. Ultimately, the plan calls for a fleet of 50 Virginia-class submarines by the mid-2040s.

Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee's Seapower and Projection Forces subcommittee, would like to see a larger submarine fleet but does not building the current industrial base could handle building three per year.

"There is no question that I am worried about the overall fleet size. It would be great for us to be able to do that but I think, however, it is a little bit challenging for the industrial base to be able to be able to pull that off. While I think that would be a good goal to have, my suspicion is that is probably not going to happen in the short term and we will stick to doing two per year," Forbes told Military.com in an interview.

Virginia-class submarines are built by a cooperative arrangement between the Navy and Electric Boat, a subsidiary of General Dynamics and Newport News Shipbuilding, a division of Huntington Ingalls Industries.

Each industry partner constructs portions, or "modules," of the submarines which are then melded together to make a complete vessel, industry and Navy officials explained. Thus far, 11 Virginia-class subs have been delivered to the Navy, and seven are currently under construction. Like other programs, the Virginia-class submarines are broken up into procurement blocks.

Blocks I and II, totaling 10 ships, have already been delivered.

The first Block III Virginia-class Submarine, the USS North Dakota, was delivered last year.

On Dec. 22, 2008, the Navy awarded a contract for eight Virginia-class submarines. The third contract for the Virginia-class, or Block III, covering hulls numbered 784 through 791 -- is a $14 billion multi-year procurement, Navy officials said.

Multi-year deals are designed to decrease cost and production time by allowing industry to shore up supplies in advance and stabilize production activities over a number of years. Budget uncertainties connected to sequestration have made these deals more difficult.

The Block III subs, now under construction, are being built with new so-called Virginia Payload Tubes designed to lower costs and increase capability, Navy officials explained.

Instead of building what most existing Virginia-class submarines have -- 12 individual 21-inch in diameter vertical launch tubes able to fire Tomahawk missiles -- the Block III submarines are being built with two-larger 87-inch in diameter tubes able to house six Tomahawk missiles each.

The first several Block IV Virginia-class submarines are under construction as well -- the USS Vermont and the USS Oregon. Last April, the Navy awarded General Dynamics' Electric Boat and Huntington Ingalls Industries Newport News Shipbuilding a $17.6 billion deal to build 10 Block IV subs with the final boat procured in 2023.

Design changes to the ship, including an alteration in the materials used for the submarines' propulsor, which will enable Block IV boats to serve for as long as 96-months between depots visits or scheduled maintenance availabilities, Navy officials said.

The program's current two-boats per year production schedule, for about $4 billion can be traced back to a 2005 challenge issued by then Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Mullen. Mullen challenged the program to reduce production costs by 20 percent, saying that would allow the Navy to build two Virginia-class submarines per year, Navy officials indicated.

This amounted to lowering the per-boat price of the submarines by as much as $400 million each, he added.

virginia-class-attack-submarine-002.jpg


va_new_diagram.gif




Navy Studies Building 3 Virginia-Class Attack Submarines Per Year | Military.com
 
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or we could order some conventional diesel subs.

Sōryū-class submarines.
n-spotlight-a-20150119.jpg

could be based out of Guam, the Philippines,South Korean, and Japan.

so you don't need the huge unlimited range of a nuclear sub.
 
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@gambit @Penguin

Is it possible for a country to tail a SSBN all the time, if it has capability to dedicate at least 3-4 SSN for each of its enemy's SSBN, and total number of SSBN with its enemy are in single digit?
 
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@gambit @Penguin

Is it possible for a country to tail a SSBN all the time, if it has capability to dedicate at least 3-4 SSN for each of its enemy's SSBN, and total number of SSBN with its enemy are in single digit?

You wouldn't necessarily tail with SSNs only. Also by e.g. SOSUS, T-AGOS ships, MPAs, even satelites
 
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You wouldn't necessarily tail with SSNs only. Also by e.g. SOSUS, T-AGOS ships, MPAs, even satelites


Which means that if you have adequate Naval supremacy, you could negate second strike or sea based strike capability of your opponent.
 
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@gambit @Penguin

Is it possible for a country to tail a SSBN all the time, if it has capability to dedicate at least 3-4 SSN for each of its enemy's SSBN, and total number of SSBN with its enemy are in single digit?
In submarine warfare, you should specify if you are a surface combatant or a submariner.

Is it possible to track a sub literally all the time ? Yes, if you are willing to yourself be tracked. Active sonar is like radar in this respect, meaning YOU will reveal yourself, and if you are a surface combatant ship, you are already known, so use your active sonar anyway.

But if you are a submariner and do not want to reveal yourself, you have to rely solely on passive measures, which mean you must have persistent acquisition of the target sub. Persistent does not mean literally all the time. Rather, it mean you must acquire initial acoustic signature of the target sub, you may lose that acoustic detection due to various reasons, but then you must be wily enough yourself to guess where the target maybe and try to reacquire the target sub. This is constantly going on with the world's navies that fields submarines. It does not matter if the target sub is ID-ed as friendly or not. Everybody tries to track everybody else.

You can have friendly subs tracking an adversary target, but unlike surface combatants who can communicate with each other and coordinate their movements, YOU and the friendlies cannot do the same, which mean each friendly sub must ID each other and each friendly commander must be wily enough to perform multiple guesses for multiple subs he is tracking via acoustic signatures that may or may not be persistent.
 
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US Navy Studies Building 3 Virginia-Class Attack Submarines Per Year
Apr 17, 2015 | by Kris Osborn

The Navy is investigating the prospect of building three new Virginia-class attack submarines per year instead of two in order to boost the size of the fleet as more Los Angeles-class submarines retire.

Rear Adm. Joseph Tofalo, Director of Undersea Warfare, said he expects to receive answers in May to his question of whether ship builders could build three submarines per year.

"The biggest issue is finding the man power pool in an economy that is also coming back. That is probably the biggest challenge. During the decade of the 80s this country built three SSNs (attack submarines) and one SSBN (ballistic missile submarine) every year for about a decade. This country can do amazing things when challenged," Tofalo said.

In total, the Navy will have 71 submarines in 2016, including 14 nuclear-armed Ohio-class submarines, or SSBNs; four Ohio-class submarines converted to conventionally armed guided-missile boats, or SSGNs; Los Angeles-class fast attack submarines, or SSNs; three Sea Wolf submarines and 11 Virginia-class submarines, also SSNs.

Even though the Navy is currently producing two new Virginia-class attack submarines each year, an anticipated shortfall of submarines is expected to grow worse in coming years as more Los Angeles-class fast-attack submarines retire at a faster pace than Virginia subs are added. Senior Navy leaders have suggested that the service may delay retirement of some Los Angeles-class boats.

"We are going to drop below the minimum requirement of 48 (attack submarines) even with the two per year build rate – so we've got to sustain that two-per year build rate and figure out ways to work through that trough, or a low point. Unfortunately, we will go down to 41 SSNs at one point," Tofalo said.

The Virginia-class attack submarine inventory will drop to 41 in 2029, according to the Navy's recently released 2016 30-year shipbuilding plan. Ultimately, the plan calls for a fleet of 50 Virginia-class submarines by the mid-2040s.

Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee's Seapower and Projection Forces subcommittee, would like to see a larger submarine fleet but does not building the current industrial base could handle building three per year.

"There is no question that I am worried about the overall fleet size. It would be great for us to be able to do that but I think, however, it is a little bit challenging for the industrial base to be able to be able to pull that off. While I think that would be a good goal to have, my suspicion is that is probably not going to happen in the short term and we will stick to doing two per year," Forbes told Military.com in an interview.

Virginia-class submarines are built by a cooperative arrangement between the Navy and Electric Boat, a subsidiary of General Dynamics and Newport News Shipbuilding, a division of Huntington Ingalls Industries.

Each industry partner constructs portions, or "modules," of the submarines which are then melded together to make a complete vessel, industry and Navy officials explained. Thus far, 11 Virginia-class subs have been delivered to the Navy, and seven are currently under construction. Like other programs, the Virginia-class submarines are broken up into procurement blocks.

Blocks I and II, totaling 10 ships, have already been delivered.

The first Block III Virginia-class Submarine, the USS North Dakota, was delivered last year.

On Dec. 22, 2008, the Navy awarded a contract for eight Virginia-class submarines. The third contract for the Virginia-class, or Block III, covering hulls numbered 784 through 791 -- is a $14 billion multi-year procurement, Navy officials said.

Multi-year deals are designed to decrease cost and production time by allowing industry to shore up supplies in advance and stabilize production activities over a number of years. Budget uncertainties connected to sequestration have made these deals more difficult.

The Block III subs, now under construction, are being built with new so-called Virginia Payload Tubes designed to lower costs and increase capability, Navy officials explained.

Instead of building what most existing Virginia-class submarines have -- 12 individual 21-inch in diameter vertical launch tubes able to fire Tomahawk missiles -- the Block III submarines are being built with two-larger 87-inch in diameter tubes able to house six Tomahawk missiles each.

The first several Block IV Virginia-class submarines are under construction as well -- the USS Vermont and the USS Oregon. Last April, the Navy awarded General Dynamics' Electric Boat and Huntington Ingalls Industries Newport News Shipbuilding a $17.6 billion deal to build 10 Block IV subs with the final boat procured in 2023.

Design changes to the ship, including an alteration in the materials used for the submarines' propulsor, which will enable Block IV boats to serve for as long as 96-months between depots visits or scheduled maintenance availabilities, Navy officials said.

The program's current two-boats per year production schedule, for about $4 billion can be traced back to a 2005 challenge issued by then Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Mullen. Mullen challenged the program to reduce production costs by 20 percent, saying that would allow the Navy to build two Virginia-class submarines per year, Navy officials indicated.

This amounted to lowering the per-boat price of the submarines by as much as $400 million each, he added.

virginia-class-attack-submarine-002.jpg


va_new_diagram.gif




Navy Studies Building 3 Virginia-Class Attack Submarines Per Year | Military.com
They will specially after China building several at one time
 
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In submarine warfare, you should specify if you are a surface combatant or a submariner.

Is it possible to track a sub literally all the time ? Yes, if you are willing to yourself be tracked. Active sonar is like radar in this respect, meaning YOU will reveal yourself, and if you are a surface combatant ship, you are already known, so use your active sonar anyway.

But if you are a submariner and do not want to reveal yourself, you have to rely solely on passive measures, which mean you must have persistent acquisition of the target sub. Persistent does not mean literally all the time. Rather, it mean you must acquire initial acoustic signature of the target sub, you may lose that acoustic detection due to various reasons, but then you must be wily enough yourself to guess where the target maybe and try to reacquire the target sub. This is constantly going on with the world's navies that fields submarines. It does not matter if the target sub is ID-ed as friendly or not. Everybody tries to track everybody else.

You can have friendly subs tracking an adversary target, but unlike surface combatants who can communicate with each other and coordinate their movements, YOU and the friendlies cannot do the same, which mean each friendly sub must ID each other and each friendly commander must be wily enough to perform multiple guesses for multiple subs he is tracking via acoustic signatures that may or may not be persistent.


Sir,

In a situation where you have very high degree of Naval supremacy, won't it be wise to assign 3-4 SSN's to shadow every SSBN that your enemy has (in Open seas where submarine hunter aircrafts could not reach), and operate one SSN in active mode with this SSN passing on target info to other SSNs.As soon as hostility breaks out, those SSN's in passive mode could take out that SSBN thus eliminating second strike capability of enemy.


I am envisioning that scenario as Pakistan may get a SSBN from China or construct one with Chinese help, but since Pakistan neither has tech to build reactors nor SLBMs, it would take time, and by the time their SSBN is inducted, India would have massive superiority even in Nuclear Submarines.

As far as my understanding goes, Sea based second strike deterrent works , or I would say works properly, is when you could field large number of SSBN's. A couple of them could be easily neutralized by your enemy, if he has massive superiority in Anti Submarine warfare assets and SSNs. I am pressing on SSNs as non-Nuclear ships may not be able to keep up with a SSBN and could lose track.
 
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Sir,

In a situation where you have very high degree of Naval supremacy, won't it be wise to assign 3-4 SSN's to shadow every SSBN that your enemy has (in Open seas where submarine hunter aircrafts could not reach), and operate one SSN in active mode with this SSN passing on target info to other SSNs.As soon as hostility breaks out, those SSN's in passive mode could take out that SSBN thus eliminating second strike capability of enemy.


I am envisioning that scenario as Pakistan may get a SSBN from China or construct one with Chinese help, but since Pakistan neither has tech to build reactors nor SLBMs, it would take time, and by the time their SSBN is inducted, India would have massive superiority even in Nuclear Submarines.

As far as my understanding goes, Sea based second strike deterrent works , or I would say works properly, is when you could field large number of SSBN's. A couple of them could be easily neutralized by your enemy, if he has massive superiority in Anti Submarine warfare assets and SSNs. I am pressing on SSNs as non-Nuclear ships may not be able to keep up with a SSBN and could lose track.
My answer will disappoint you: But I do not know. Really, I do not. Maybe the forum's American Navy man (sven) knows, but I doubt he would be willing to reveal.

The collapse of the Soviet Union did not reduce the need for submarine operation secrecy, and such security heavily contribute to our advantages in this area. I can give opinions from a sensor specialist's perspective because the data processing between radar and sonar usually overlaps and I can even make educated guesses on how subs can track targets based upon known data processing principles, but as far as USN sub operations goes, I have no idea on how the USN assign patrol duties and/or specific missions.
 
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Which means that if you have adequate Naval supremacy, you could negate second strike or sea based strike capability of your opponent.
IMHO that is an overstatement. Or an underestimation of the opponents SSBN force (which even under ideal circumstances will be hard to locate)
 
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Excellent! I hope this leaves the 'study phase' and becomes a reality.
 
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Composite Components Ordered for Virginia Class Subs
06.05.2105

UTC Aerospace Systems has entered into an agreement with Newport News Shipbuilding, a division of Huntington Ingalls Industries to provide a number of composite components for the next 10 Virginia Class nuclear attack submarines, collectively referred to as Block IV.

The agreements cover deliveries through 2020 to the shipbuilder. Work will be performed by the Engineered Polymer Products (EPP) team in Jacksonville, Florida, which is part of the Aerostructures business unit.

The composite components include the bow dome and rubber boot, along with a variety of external fairing structures.

Composite Components Ordered for Virginia Class Subs | Naval Today
 
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