Pakistan Navy’s 2300 Tons OPVs launched by Damen

[arslank03]

What is the capacity in Pakistan to produce military ship grade steel? Does Pakistan even have the capability to produce the steel or is it something that would need to be sourced?

well, the agostas used steel from PSM- HY-80

 

[Tank131]

As far as i know, The capability to work with and produce steel of this grade exists within Pakistan and its industry. But something being technically possible doesn’t mean it’s realistically possible, especially given the state of some of our largest steel plants.

What would it take to make it feasible?

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

well, the agostas used steel from PSM- HY-80

So there was local input atleast in the Steel, What other major areas local resources were used? Unfortunately, In such multi-million or billion dollar projects there isn't much detailed info in public domain that's why many questions comes to mind like:

- Why PN didn't build any more Agostas-90b after PNS Saad that was commissioned in 2006?
Agosta 90b is a capable vessel. Considering PN had received rights & ToT and then Naval Chief had claimed that from then onwards PN not only operate subs but will be building for itself and other countries (Perhaps it was convicted CNS Mansur ul haq who said at that time). It couldn't be just the financial issues as the the matter of fact, one of prime reasons Navy pushed for ToT / copyrights in Agosta deal (or atleast what was told in the newspapers of that era) was that after ToT costs of subs will be greatly reduced as newer subs will be built locally. But 9 years later we signed up for 8 Chinese Hangor-class subs. Why did we choose the chinese subs instead building more agosta-90b? What really failed in agosta-90b deal? Are the chinese subs much more advanced then the agosta-90b? If that's the case then its understandable.

What I think is despite the rhetoric of PN leadership of that era, PN never really absorbed the manufacturing capability to build more agostas-90b. The CNS statements were kind of political in nature and far from reality. Perhaps only the technical limitations pushed us to go for chinese sub deal.

Interestingly, about chinese sub deal, we again heard nearly the same wordings by another CNS that capability to build subs locally in future. But I think those statements are far from reality. Those ToT agreements never really equipped or enabled us to build more platforms ourselves. As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has pointed out PN needs to focus on original submarine program that may be the right direction.

 

[arslank03]

So there was local input atleast in the Steel, What other major areas local resources were used? Unfortunately, In such multi-million or billion dollar projects there isn't much detailed info in public domain that's why many questions comes to mind like:

- Why PN didn't build any more Agostas-90b after PNS Saad that was commissioned in 2006?
Agosta 90b is a capable vessel. Considering PN had received rights & ToT and then Naval Chief had claimed that from then onwards PN not only operate subs but will be building for itself and other countries (Perhaps it was convicted CNS Mansur ul haq who said at that time). It couldn't be just the financial issues as the the matter of fact, one of prime reasons Navy pushed for ToT / copyrights in Agosta deal (or atleast what was told in the newspapers of that era) was that after ToT costs of subs will be greatly reduced as newer subs will be built locally. But 9 years later we signed up for 8 Chinese Hangor-class subs. Why did we choose the chinese subs instead building more agosta-90b? What really failed in agosta-90b deal? Are the chinese subs much more advanced then the agosta-90b? If that's the case then its understandable.

What I think is despite the rhetoric of PN leadership of that era, PN never really absorbed the manufacturing capability to build more agostas-90b. The CNS statements were kind of political in nature and far from reality. Perhaps only the technical limitations pushed us to go for chinese sub deal.

Interestingly, about chinese sub deal, we again heard nearly the same wordings by another CNS that capability to build subs locally in future. But I think those statements are far from reality. Those ToT agreements never really equipped or enabled us to build more platforms ourselves. As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has pointed out PN needs to focus on original submarine program that may be the right direction.

well, part of it probably had something to do with Indian ties warming with France and in 2011 France disallowed heavy weapons sales to Pakistan. Something probably brewing prior to 2011 really. Follow-up Agosta's were not feasible due to financials yes, but more importantly, the priorities of the states' defense spending were likely counter-insurgency during those times due to the WoT. Lack of funds, combined with WoT probably meant the silent service was neglected and only kept to the minimum amount of vessels needed to maintain at least one continuous patrol.

I also would not discount the knock-on effects of the Agosta deal. Significant technical assistance was provided to KSEW which allowed them to gain experience in the field, something which in itself is priceless, it's very likely that today, the reason we are building Yuans(albeit very slowly) is due to the experience and expertise provided to us by the French via the Agosta contract.

You also need to remember, afaik, the MESMA modules were shipped to us in a completed section from France, That is the key bit, the AIP module was shipped in, we have not been in a position for at least the last decade to receive any further assistance from France, meaning, if we were to pursue further hulls, its likely they would not be as capable.

Aside from that, the electronics are mostly from France also but we could substitute them with Turkish ones.

The Agosta is 70's tech, while the Chinese boats wont be as advanced as the most modern designs, they'll still be closer to a current design than the Agosta's will, however, even if they are not, the real crux of it is, the entire project is bankrolled by China and thats why it was selected. 9 submarines is not a joke, a project like that would take decades and billions of dollars, its a significant investment and a fleet of 12-16 SSK's like PN intends is one of the largest in the world and will never allow the IN to get close to the shores again. Its not really the technical limitations id say, rather, fiscal ones really.

On your last point, i think we are getting closer to a domestic sub-program, there has been a shift in Pak defence policy and it seems to me that there is a genuine drive ti push for local equipt, especially seeing as now nobody wants to deal with us, i just hope that we are able to absorb tech from the JV's. Fincantieri's s800 is something im praying for us to see in the PN, it will be a significant upgrade, featuring tech from the u212, it is also based off of a larger design- the S1000 so it should also be easier to morph into a original sub design project.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Will this beautiful boat take some aid supplies to Palestine or Food ?
I don't know just wondering if any Brave General in our Military will go do that

Stating the obvious , if not that is fine as well just say it is a fishing boat

Oh wait I remember these ships have no range likely will run out of fuel by the time it will reach Yamen

Somali Pirates will be tug boating this thing back to Karachi harbor

Aek Al Khalid Tank hi donate ker do , nam to Al Khalid Tank rakh liya

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As far as I know, special steel products are produced at Peoples Steel Mill, Karachi. It is a different setup from Pakistan Steel Mills. Tungsten core for APFSDS rounds is one of the products being produced at People SM for Armored Corp.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So there was local input atleast in the Steel, What other major areas local resources were used? Unfortunately, In such multi-million or billion dollar projects there isn't much detailed info in public domain that's why many questions comes to mind like:

- Why PN didn't build any more Agostas-90b after PNS Saad that was commissioned in 2006?
Agosta 90b is a capable vessel. Considering PN had received rights & ToT and then Naval Chief had claimed that from then onwards PN not only operate subs but will be building for itself and other countries (Perhaps it was convicted CNS Mansur ul haq who said at that time). It couldn't be just the financial issues as the the matter of fact, one of prime reasons Navy pushed for ToT / copyrights in Agosta deal (or atleast what was told in the newspapers of that era) was that after ToT costs of subs will be greatly reduced as newer subs will be built locally. But 9 years later we signed up for 8 Chinese Hangor-class subs. Why did we choose the chinese subs instead building more agosta-90b? What really failed in agosta-90b deal? Are the chinese subs much more advanced then the agosta-90b? If that's the case then its understandable.

What I think is despite the rhetoric of PN leadership of that era, PN never really absorbed the manufacturing capability to build more agostas-90b. The CNS statements were kind of political in nature and far from reality. Perhaps only the technical limitations pushed us to go for chinese sub deal.

Interestingly, about chinese sub deal, we again heard nearly the same wordings by another CNS that capability to build subs locally in future. But I think those statements are far from reality. Those ToT agreements never really equipped or enabled us to build more platforms ourselves. As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has pointed out PN needs to focus on original submarine program that may be the right direction.

With the Agosta 90B, the PN and KSEW got the know-how to build that specific design, but not the required industrial capacity to do it without France's help. When French help waned, so did the Agosta 90B as the PN needed specific OEM-supplied inputs, such as the engines, AIP, and so on.

That said, the PN leveraged the know-how from that deal as much as possible (e.g., forming NRDI, which later took on the Jinnah-class frigate program). As @arslank03 said, the PN bought the Hangor submarines for a relatively good price and, IMO, it'll help KSEW warm up its capacity to build submarines again.

The next step is an original submarine design. This is where the PN will pursue optimal capability as much as possible while also looping in domestic inputs where feasible (e.g., steel, electronic subsystems, anti-sub and anti-ship weapons, etc.).

The PN needs a stealthy anti-ship/anti-sub hunter, so it'll probably look at a 1600~1800-ton single-hull design with -- ideally -- fuel-cell AIP. I wouldn't expect VLS -- it'll deviate from the core requirement of these subs (A2/AD) and make connecting with input suppliers (e.g., for the engines and the AIP) needlessly more difficult. Moreover, the larger double-hull Hangors will probably take on longer-ranged assignments, while the original SSP will stay closer to home to deter and deny.

I think the PN will work with whoever it chooses for the SWATS program; so, keep an eye for it -- I think it's down to Turkey and Italy via STM and Fincantieri, respectively. South Korea may be a dark horse.

As @arslank03 said, the S800 would be ideal as that was based on a full-sized submarine program and, without doubt, Fincantieri is more experienced and well-connected (e.g., with propulsion and AIP suppliers). OTOH, Turkey will likely be more upfront with transferring know-how and capacity to Pakistan so that NRDI can own the design and KSEW can produce the submarines.

Given the secrecy of the silent service and the stakes, I don't know if we'll ever learn about the winner of the SWATS program. I can imagine a situation where in a few years the PN announces the induction of the first SWATS and the start of an "indigenous submarine" project.

BTW, here's a summary of the PN's original programs:

1. Jinnah-class frigate (mainstay surface warship)
2. Sea Sultan (long-range maritime patrol aircraft)
3. Patrol boat (38.8 m design in partnership with Swiftships)
4. Marine Assault Boat (in partnership with Techno Marine of Poland

There are 3 main areas remaining:

1. Multirole Helicopter (for shipborne ASuW/ASW and CSAR ops)
2. Submarine (to eventually replace the Agosta 90B and expand the fleet)
3. FAC (a stealthy fast attack craft for A2/AD)

 

[LegionnairE]

With the Agosta 90B, the PN and KSEW got the know-how to build that specific design, but not the required industrial capacity to do it without France's help. When French help waned, so did the Agosta 90B as the PN needed specific OEM-supplied inputs, such as the engines, AIP, and so on.

That said, the PN leveraged the know-how from that deal as much as possible (e.g., forming NRDI, which later took on the Jinnah-class frigate program). As @arslank03 said, the PN bought the Hangor submarines for a relatively good price and, IMO, it'll help KSEW warm up its capacity to build submarines again.

The next step is an original submarine design. This is where the PN will pursue optimal capability as much as possible while also looping in domestic inputs where feasible (e.g., steel, electronic subsystems, anti-sub and anti-ship weapons, etc.).

The PN needs a stealthy anti-ship/anti-sub hunter, so it'll probably look at a 1600~1800-ton single-hull design with -- ideally -- fuel-cell AIP. I wouldn't expect VLS -- it'll deviate from the core requirement of these subs (A2/AD) and make connecting with input suppliers (e.g., for the engines and the AIP) needlessly more difficult. Moreover, the larger double-hull Hangors will probably take on longer-ranged assignments, while the original SSP will stay closer to home to deter and deny.

I think the PN will work with whoever it chooses for the SWATS program; so, keep an eye for it -- I think it's down to Turkey and Italy via STM and Fincantieri, respectively. South Korea may be a dark horse.

As @arslank03 said, the S800 would be ideal as that was based on a full-sized submarine program and, without doubt, Fincantieri is more experienced and well-connected (e.g., with propulsion and AIP suppliers). OTOH, Turkey will likely be more upfront with transferring know-how and capacity to Pakistan so that NRDI can own the design and KSEW can produce the submarines.

Given the secrecy of the silent service and the stakes, I don't know if we'll ever learn about the winner of the SWATS program. I can imagine a situation where in a few years the PN announces the induction of the first SWATS and the start of an "indigenous submarine" project.

BTW, here's a summary of the PN's original programs:

1. Jinnah-class frigate (mainstay surface warship)
2. Sea Sultan (long-range maritime patrol aircraft)
3. Patrol boat (38.8 m design in partnership with Swiftships)
4. Marine Assault Boat (in partnership with Techno Marine of Poland

There are 3 main areas remaining:

1. Multirole Helicopter (for shipborne ASuW/ASW and CSAR ops)
2. Submarine (to eventually replace the Agosta 90B and expand the fleet)
3. FAC (a stealthy fast attack craft for A2/AD)

I think STM 500 will be a very attractive option for Pakistan due to it's low cost and Türk Tipi Hücumbot due to it's deadliness.

The ability to fight head to head with frigates is amazing. But considering the fact that even the Turkish navy doesn't have the funds to build them yet, it can not be a cheap option.

 

[farooqbhai007]

With the Agosta 90B, the PN and KSEW got the know-how to build that specific design, but not the required industrial capacity to do it without France's help. When French help waned, so did the Agosta 90B as the PN needed specific OEM-supplied inputs, such as the engines, AIP, and so on.

That said, the PN leveraged the know-how from that deal as much as possible (e.g., forming NRDI, which later took on the Jinnah-class frigate program). As @arslank03 said, the PN bought the Hangor submarines for a relatively good price and, IMO, it'll help KSEW warm up its capacity to build submarines again.

The next step is an original submarine design. This is where the PN will pursue optimal capability as much as possible while also looping in domestic inputs where feasible (e.g., steel, electronic subsystems, anti-sub and anti-ship weapons, etc.).

The PN needs a stealthy anti-ship/anti-sub hunter, so it'll probably look at a 1600~1800-ton single-hull design with -- ideally -- fuel-cell AIP. I wouldn't expect VLS -- it'll deviate from the core requirement of these subs (A2/AD) and make connecting with input suppliers (e.g., for the engines and the AIP) needlessly more difficult. Moreover, the larger double-hull Hangors will probably take on longer-ranged assignments, while the original SSP will stay closer to home to deter and deny.

I think the PN will work with whoever it chooses for the SWATS program; so, keep an eye for it -- I think it's down to Turkey and Italy via STM and Fincantieri, respectively. South Korea may be a dark horse.

As @arslank03 said, the S800 would be ideal as that was based on a full-sized submarine program and, without doubt, Fincantieri is more experienced and well-connected (e.g., with propulsion and AIP suppliers). OTOH, Turkey will likely be more upfront with transferring know-how and capacity to Pakistan so that NRDI can own the design and KSEW can produce the submarines.

Given the secrecy of the silent service and the stakes, I don't know if we'll ever learn about the winner of the SWATS program. I can imagine a situation where in a few years the PN announces the induction of the first SWATS and the start of an "indigenous submarine" project.

BTW, here's a summary of the PN's original programs:

1. Jinnah-class frigate (mainstay surface warship)
2. Sea Sultan (long-range maritime patrol aircraft)
3. Patrol boat (38.8 m design in partnership with Swiftships)
4. Marine Assault Boat (in partnership with Techno Marine of Poland

There are 3 main areas remaining:

1. Multirole Helicopter (for shipborne ASuW/ASW and CSAR ops)
2. Submarine (to eventually replace the Agosta 90B and expand the fleet)
3. FAC (a stealthy fast attack craft for A2/AD)

Haibat Class is a enlarged re-design of Azmat class and is the first indigenously designed vessel by PN/MTC/KSEW.
And with the changes done to convert Milgem to Babur class (Expansion in length and width to accommodate VLS), i suspect PN/MTC was likely involved in that as well.

I am pretty sure PN has EW Variant of ATR72 in the pipeline as well since we did see a image o that on ideas.

 

[Tank131]

Haibat Class is a enlarged re-design of Azmat class and is the first indigenously designed vessel by PN/MTC/KSEW.
And with the changes done to convert Milgem to Babur class (Expansion in length and width to accommodate VLS), i suspect PN/MTC was likely involved in that as well.

I am pretty sure PN has EW Variant of ATR72 in the pipeline as well since we did see a image o that on ideas.

As a replacement for DA-20 Falcons?

 

[arslank03]

As a replacement for DA-20 Falcons?

no, PN

 

[Falcon26]

As a replacement for DA-20 Falcons?

DA-20s belong to the Air Force.

 

[Tank131]

DA-20s belong to the Air Force.

Missed the PN part