Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

Pakistanisage · Aug 3, 2015

It is not by sheer accident that Pakistan Navy has asked for 12 Submarines.

The Weapons System any branch of Armed Forces asks for is dictated by its Military Doctrine.

Because of its limited Budget in comparison with India, Pakistan has rightly opted for a Defensive Military Doctrine as opposed to an Offensive one. We don't have the funds to have large number of Destroyers and therefore we are not interested in becoming a " Blue Water Navy ". Our goal is to defend our own sea lanes in case of War and Protect our Coast line. This is why we have opted for Submarines as they are the best " Sea Denial " weapon to counter our Enemy's large Destroyer Force.

I think Pakistan should have at least 20 to 25 Submarines to make sure Indian Destroyers and Frigates never leave their Ports.

araz · Aug 3, 2015

Super Falcon said:
Since OHP over we coul have revised sub deal bought out of 8 subs only remining 4 sub money we could got destroyers from china china defence open all doors just we have to choose they offer us what we want

Read my post again. Do you not think that the PN might have thought of it the same way as we are. Then why did they go down this route instead of goiñg down the sub and frigate route. What was put on the table may have been too good to refuse. Numbers have an economy of their own. Of course we will not know till the PN releases further information.
Araz

Arsalan · Aug 3, 2015

Rashid Mahmood said:
Why do think PN is going for a strong Sub force.....
.

Same reason!
And for the same reason i do not see PN dropping subs and buying frigates.

Muhammad Omar · Aug 3, 2015

Pakistanisage said:
I think Pakistan should have at least 20 to 25 Submarines to make sure Indian Destroyers and Frigates never leave their Ports.

are you serious on that? why would we need so many subs on such a small cost line?

Pakistanisage · Aug 3, 2015

Muhammad Omar said:
are you serious on that? why would we need so many subs on such a small cost line?

Submarines are there :

1. To Defend the Coast line and our Commercial Sea Lanes.

2. To Present a strong Sea Denial Challenge to Indian Warships and Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups In the Arabian Sea and possibly Indian Ocean.

3. To Complete Pakistan Navy's " Nuclear Triad " in the Indian Ocean.

So you see, the Submarines will not just traverse Pakistan's Coast line but we will also have a huge presence in Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean, which is really a large area to cover.

HRK · Aug 3, 2015

Muhammad Omar said:
are you serious on that? why would we need so many subs on such a small cost line?

Not just coast line ... 'THINK BIG THINK FOR FUTURE' let say for next '2 to 3 decades'

NAVAREA IX (our area of Maritime 'Interest & Responsibility')

INTERNATIONAL MARITIME CHOKE POINTS

in coming decades our 'NATIONAL INTEREST' will dictate us to become a REGIONAL NAVAL POWER for which we will be required not just to have 12-14 submarines (as per our current navy modernisation plan) in our fleet but a handsome number of surface ships as well to safeguard our National Maritime interest at regional stage & to secure our Strategic position at Global Stage

In my opinion with gradual increase in maritime traffic due to Gawadar & because of the unstable Middle east region we will see a surge of our Naval capabilities due to the influence of our 'new' National Strategies Interests related to our Defence & Economy; in next 1.5 or 2 decades we will see our Nation moving away from INDIA CENTRIC approach to REGIONAL approach.

Super Falcon · Aug 4, 2015

araz said:
Read my post again. Do you not think that the PN might have thought of it the same way as we are. Then why did they go down this route instead of goiñg down the sub and frigate route. What was put on the table may have been too good to refuse. Numbers have an economy of their own. Of course we will not know till the PN releases further information.
Araz

Agreed but think tank of pn is nuts they always consider getting ships which are retired

If u get F 22 frigate out our entire navy fleet based on retired ship whom we are using these ships seen full time mother countries saw it they are not goid to use they retired them PN thinking is very cheap and mindboggling

araz · Aug 4, 2015

Super Falcon said:
Agreed but think tank of pn is nuts they always consider getting ships which are retired

If u get F 22 frigate out our entire navy fleet based on retired ship whom we are using these ships seen full time mother countries saw it they are not goid to use they retired them PN thinking is very cheap and mindboggling

Again a reflection of the lack of resources available to the PN to buy newer platform. It is not through lack of trying but the fact that the platforms we have asked for others have paid more than we were willing to pay. USA has now ditched us twice once by not renewing the lease of Brookes and Garcia frigates and recently not providing us with OHP imposing conditions which it knows we cant comply with. The type 23 have been looked at and offers were made but someone was willing to pay more and got the platform.
Araz

princefaisal · Aug 4, 2015

Pakistan navy should increase the number of submarines and decrease the number of Frigates and Destroyers. During surprise attacks, mostly surface ships are destroyed. Similarly if your airforce is weak, then the only attack on enemy can be done through submarines only. Nowadays, fighter aircraft can do more damage to the enemy than frigates. So longer range aircrafts like Su-35 should be procured for Pakistan navy.

niaz · Aug 5, 2015

princefaisal said:
Pakistan navy should increase the number of submarines and decrease the number of Frigates and Destroyers. During surprise attacks, mostly surface ships are destroyed. Similarly if your airforce is weak, then the only attack on enemy can be done through submarines only. Nowadays, fighter aircraft can do more damage to the enemy than frigates. So longer range aircrafts like Su-35 should be procured for Pakistan navy.

Admittedly it is theoretically possible to evade MR and radar network and catch surface vessels in a surprise attack. However the same applies to sub surface vessels as well. You may have heard of the SOSUS arrays.

Since a single SSBN with multiple nuclear warheads has the ability to change the course of war by destroying the whole nation; sea bed listening devices capable of tracking submarines have been developed where it possible to detect man-made noises across the ocean. SOSUS arrays system had been in operation during the cold war period. In combination with the Towed Array Sensor System US & the NATO could keep track of virtually all the soviet submarines that passed thru gap between Green land, Iceland & the UK.

Since it is possible to know where each and every submarine is, when two countries are otherwise at peace; it is also theoretically possible to destroy the submarines in a sneak attack.

SOSUS array is no longer a secret as it was declassified in the early

MastanKhan · Aug 5, 2015

niaz said:
Admittedly it is theoretically possible to evade MR and radar network and catch surface vessels in a surprise attack. However the same applies to sub surface vessels as well. You may have heard of the SOSUS arrays.

Since a single SSBN with multiple nuclear warheads has the ability to change the course of war by destroying the whole nation; sea bed listening devices capable of tracking submarines have been developed where it possible to detect man-made noises across the ocean. SOSUS arrays system had been in operation during the cold war period. In combination with the Towed Array Sensor System US & the NATO could keep track of virtually all the soviet submarines that passed thru gap between Green land, Iceland & the UK.

Since it is possible to know where each and every submarine is, when two countries are otherwise at peace; it is also theoretically possible to destroy the submarines in a sneak attack.

SOSUS array is no longer a secret as it was declassified in the early

Hi,

Thanks to Tom Clancy------.

princefaisal said:
Pakistan navy should increase the number of submarines and decrease the number of Frigates and Destroyers. During surprise attacks, mostly surface ships are destroyed. Similarly if your airforce is weak, then the only attack on enemy can be done through submarines only. Nowadays, fighter aircraft can do more damage to the enemy than frigates. So longer range aircrafts like Su-35 should be procured for Pakistan navy.

Hi,

The assets of defense forces are just the members of a cricket team. When you go to bat---you can only ASSUME how the pitch will behave and what the ball will do for you.

For that reason you all fast bowlers---the surface heavy ships----you have the spinners---that is the submarine fleet---you have the wicketkeeper---that is your SENTRY---like the awacs----and then you have rest of your players---which are like the other complimentary operators supporting the spearhead action of the force----.

This same analogy can be used for the air force and the army as well.

Your openers are the spearhead of either your bowling or batting attack---then your one down and two down and three down are your supporting acts to cover your flanks---you behind and then you have your heavy hitters as well to punch thru the enemy lines or smash thru the enemy bowling attack and then you have the weaklings at the tail end that sometimes change the game and sometimes they just fizzle out.

And then you have your staff---the coaches--the trainers and other support group---like you have a field headquarter---you have GHQ---yu have a field hospital and all other sundries.

But the thing is that the TEAM is incomplete without the right compliment of the players and support staff----and you claim that the game is fixed---or the captain does not like a player.

So--how is it possible for a team to go into the field without its 2nd in command---the vice captain----how the heck is it possible to go into the battle without the Vice Admiral----.

How the heck is it possible to side line the Lt General and put a lieutenant in his position-----?

So---in a similar manner the surface fleet is extremely important as the submarine fleet is as well as the air arm.

princefaisal · Aug 5, 2015

MastanKhan said:
Hi,

Thanks to Tom Clancy------.

Hi,

The assets of defense forces are just the members of a cricket team. When you go to bat---you can only ASSUME how the pitch will behave and what the ball will do for you.

For that reason you all fast bowlers---the surface heavy ships----you have the spinners---that is the submarine fleet---you have the wicketkeeper---that is your SENTRY---like the awacs----and then you have rest of your players---which are like the other complimentary operators supporting the spearhead action of the force----.

This same analogy can be used for the air force and the army as well.

Your openers are the spearhead of either your bowling or batting attack---then your one down and two down and three down are your supporting acts to cover your flanks---you behind and then you have your heavy hitters as well to punch thru the enemy lines or smash thru the enemy bowling attack and then you have the weaklings at the tail end that sometimes change the game and sometimes they just fizzle out.

And then you have your staff---the coaches--the trainers and other support group---like you have a field headquarter---you have GHQ---yu have a field hospital and all other sundries.

But the thing is that the TEAM is incomplete without the right compliment of the players and support staff----and you claim that the game is fixed---or the captain does not like a player.

So--how is it possible for a team to go into the field without its 2nd in command---the vice captain----how the heck is it possible to go into the battle without the Vice Admiral----.

How the heck is it possible to side line the Lt General and put a lieutenant in his position-----?

So---in a similar manner the surface fleet is extremely important as the submarine fleet is as well as the air arm.

I know that every player is important and pyramid should be maintained from midshipman to Admiral. But critical asset numbers should be increased with certain ratios depending upon the threats and our weak points.

MastanKhan · Aug 5, 2015

princefaisal said:
I know that every player is important and pyramid should be maintained from midshipman to Admiral. But critical asset numbers should be increased with certain ratios depending upon the threats and our weak points.

Hi,

When the operational capabilities of subs come into play---ie---when the submarine attacks a ship or a target---it is the declaration of war----it is the beginning of hostilities.

But when a surface ship targets a contact---it is power positioning.

See---submarines are the most important part of the armed forces at this time as well as the most critical part as well.

They are the last and the final avengers and for that reason---their importance will never be relinquished.

Quwa · Aug 5, 2015

The only reason why PN would focus on submarines first and foremost is because of necessity, it lacks money. However, if finances become available, I think it would acquire around 8 fully capable multimission frigates. At the minimum these frigates would have local area (30-50km) air defence, ideally, 4 among them would have area wide (90-120+ km) capability.

With such a surface fleet alongside a 9-12 strong SSK force and healthy MPA fleet, the PN would be a fairly capable force across all spectrums. SSKs can focus on attack, the frigates can support with air defence (especially against enemy ASW-capable MPAs).

wowler · Aug 5, 2015

I don't know why people here are scared or even worried about IN 200 ships.
First of all PN can't match IN not even in 2050 even if it starts building ships from today.
Now coming to the question.
I think PN didn't learn anything from 1971.
And also from operation trident and operation python.
They sgould look at 200 + ICG'S 70+ OPVs and fast attack vessels also Indian OPVs are not typical opvs like other countries they are well equipped also the bigger surprise for is that the follow on
GSL class OPVs will be bramhos missile equipped.
But the biggest surlrise for me in Indian navy 2026 plan was along with
200 ships they will have mini airforce which will have 600+ aircrafts which is well above the present numbers of PAF.
So for PN the affordable is to have aircrafts which can do ASW and also good air to surface strike operations and along with some submarines.
But still PN can't protect pakistan from blockade even though if PN have these potential aircrafts or even submarine it is just the matter of how much days it can resist. It just depends on IN to decide in how many days it wants to blocade pakistan.

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Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

Pakistanisage

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araz

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Arsalan

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Muhammad Omar

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HRK

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Super Falcon

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