India successfully tests Nirbhay cruise missile

btw the relevancy of all such weapons (babur/nirbhay/omahawk) would all lose if a hypersonic missile of simalar range gets devloped quickly. it is this where we all have high hopes from either brahmos/Yakhont derivative or DRDO to come out with something quickly.

Bratva said:

There is a difference b/w terrain hugging through radar altimeter and terrain hugging through tercom. Brahmos does the former not the later

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With only using an altimeter how can a missile become terrain hugging???? Their should be a correlator comparing terrain contour with Altitude measured.. May be any other tech other than TERCOM.. Anyway Brahmos is terrain hugging according to Dr.Sivathanu Pillai..

Three services to have BrahMos missiles - The Hindu

MUMBAI: While the Navy has started inducting multi-role, supersonic cruise missile, BrahMos, in a big way, the Army and the Air Force are poised to follow suit to be able to `destabilise' critical targets with pinpoint accuracy.

"Army is very keen to have the missile and we are working on the `land to land' version of it for the Army," said Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai, chief controller of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Dr. Pillai is also the managing director of BrahMos Aerospace, an Indo-Russian joint venture that designed and developed the world's only supersonic cruise missile and is now engaged in its production and marketing. He was here to ceremoniously receive the first airframe section of BrahMos from the Chairman of Godrej and Boyce Mfg. Company, J.N. Godrej. About 20 Indian and seven Russian companies are making critical systems for the missile.

He said that the missile was undergoing critical tests to meet the Army's specific requirements to be able to take on different types of targets. The army version would have features like position updating, terrain-hugging, homing image analysis and higher degree of data processing .
The Army is raising a special BrahMos Regiment of three batteries comprising a mobile launcher, mobile and fixed command centres besides other supporting facilities.

The Air Force has identified Su-30 Mk1 aircraft to be able to deliver air-launched version of the BrahMos. The air-launched version will be lighter in weight with its reduced booster. Dr. Pillai said that it would have the advantage of the speed of the platform itself. It would have fins for stability and a simplified nose.

He said that one BrahMos could be fitted under the belly of Su-30 without any structural modification. Two more could be added under the wings if they were upgraded. The Air Force has already accepted the feasibility report and the missile is being readied for test. The army version has already undergone two tests. Both the services would be able to induct the missile in a couple of years.

The BrahMos is a multiple-platform missile for the Navy. All new warships would be armed with the BrahMos and all big ships undergoing a refit would also get it, he said. The Navy would be able to fit even its land-based maritime reconnaissance aircraft, TU-142 for air to ship attacks while being on surveillance missions. The aircraft would be able to carry up to six BrahMos. The Navy has already fitted four two-tube missile launchers onboard INS Rajput, a Kashin class destroyer. All five warships of this class would get BrahMos.

Lil Mathew said:

1. TERCOM is not some ultimate technological end for navigation.. Every countries has its own technologies and ways for navigation. Our hybrid inertial navigation system using a ring-laser gyro (RINS) coupled with a GPS receiver and a digital radar altimeter (all developed by the DRDO’s Research centre Imarat, or RCI, and integrated jointly by the Advanced Systems Laboratory, or ASL, and the Aeronautical Development Establishment, or ADE) is indigenous and highly effective.. Our terminal guidance Scene Correlation and Navigation (SCAN) using SAR/ISAR mapping is similar type correlation technology (even better in some aspects) like DSMAC.. Why we need to change it with DSMAC???.. SCAN is more reliable .. Because here high resolution satellite SAR images are compared by onboard x band SAR images.. These navigation techs are well proved in Brahmos.. INS correction using SAR image also will be their in Nirbhay which is better than TAINS( TERCOM using with INS)..

1.5 One disadvantage of TERCOM systems is that the entire route has to be pre-planned, including its launch point. If the missile is launched from an unexpected location or flies too far off-course, it will never fly over the features included in the maps, and become lost.This makes TERCOM based systems much less flexible than more modern systems like GPS, which can be set to attack any location from any location, and does not require any sort of pre-recorded information which means they can be targeted immediately prior to launch.

2. Why BABUR using TERCOM & DSMAC?? How you getting the pre-recorded contour map of the terrain for TERCOM (by satellite????? Which satellite???) and How you take photographs of target for DSMAC (using Surveillance aircraft???)... Each must develop their technology according to their available resources( satellites) and needs.. Here it is evident that Pakistan just copy paste old Tomohawk nav system blindly...

One more thing is the first two tests of Nirbhay are meant for validating the robustness of the missile’s airframe and that of its two-stage propulsion system (and hence are not equipped with digital terrain profile matching sensor and warheads. The next two, also to be conducted from ITR, will seek to validate the Nirbhay’s flight management system, inclusive of the digital terrain profile matching sensor (an X-band SAR)...

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1. It's theoretical at this stage. We will gauge the success of all these systems once it is implemented in nirbhay and performed as you are advertising it should.

1.5 No You can not fly Cruise missile without tercom based solely on INS coupled with GPS receiver. Since Indian GPS are not Jamming prone, Indian scientists would not take the risk of going all out GPS on nirbhay without same backup if GPS signals fail. TERCOM is there for this very basic reason.

And your assumptions are pretty much wrong, every modern cruise missile has TERCOM/TERPROM in it. Every cruise missile flight is pre-planned. The surprise factor is Missile Low-Low-Hi trajectory which masks missile location until it's late too intercept. No Country ever launch it's cruise missile solely based on GPS. this is the most foolish mistake consider to be done ever.

It's only during the flight that you can change Missile paths. Read Block IV tomahawk links that I posted couple pages back how GPS works in it

And for Terminal guidance, one can use DSMAC which is an autonomous missile guidance concept based on area correlation of sensed ground scenes . It's a concept not a technology, so You can implement this concept as per your requirements, one way you have described is in your post. So How your SCAN becomes better DSMAC when it is actually a way to implement DSMAC? Do you know there is a camera installed in Cruise missile which take photos in terminal phase and compare it with the target to match and set it's terminal dive ?

If you are not using DSMAC, then you your terminal guidance is provided by IIR seeker like of storm shadow or SOM cruise of turkey



2. Since your Ignorance about Tercom and DSMAC is exposed openly, You don't even know how cruise missile works and just shooting tangents left, right, up down on mere assumptions instead of the proven history of every cruise missile launch from first gulf war to second gulf war to Libyan conflict which proved every cruise missile follow a preplanned route

So i'm not even going to comment your ignorant remark of Babur Tercom and DSMAC and the number of cameras installed in it and no we didn't copy pasted TERCOM or DSMAC, we developed both the system in house.It's not the software that you can copy, it's the algorithms ( image processing, the flight control software etc etc), hardware software combined on a FPGA board which you can not copy paste. You should have a basic electrical engineering knowledge to know such systems has to be developed from scratch and nobody can copy paste it. It's all in Babur database thread which you read obviously in strategic missile subforum

And about the maps part, Pakistan is using Beidou which has mapping capability. Our SPD has signed agreements for military usage of Beidou which can map terrain in Centimeters or Milimeters besides there are commercial firms through which we can obtain terrain mapping up to in Centimeters. Again info is in babur database thread


I hope when you quote this post, you have done some reading about everything and arguments would not be based on blind patriotism and ignorance

Lil Mathew said:

With only using an altimeter how can a missile become terrain hugging???? Their should be a correlator comparing terrain contour with Altitude measured.. May be any other tech other than TERCOM.. Anyway Brahmos is terrain hugging according to Dr.Sivathanu Pillai...

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Ermm because that's the job of Radar altimeter ? It send data to flight computer and prevents an object from crashing in to ground. How do you think AshM achieves 5-10 Meter from 100-200 Meter altitude in terminal phase before attacking the ship ?

Shaheenmissile post in previous pages has amply explained the difference b/w Tercom and just radar altimeter

And by the homing image analysis part, it means the data collected by active seeker can form a better image thorugh high data processing and Better homing image analysis

Path

Bratva said:

Neither Tomahwk could do that without satellite Navigation. You nirbhay must have been made my Martians then.

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So far as believing the claim is concern, I would prefer Mr. Saraswat over you.

PARIKRAMA said:

The fact of the matter is Nirbhay is not a big technological break through and nver was from the beginning. its main advantages are
1. Its range (prasun Sengupta said the second test missile travelled 1157 kms) which i think can be developed over time to say 2000-2500-3000 kms
2. Its addition would add variety of delivery systems which can be used right from Brahmos to nirbhay to prithvi to agni and many more for different roles (nuclear/conventional).
3. The delivery of all such missiles from multiple platforms like land air sea over time which adds a potent and healthy mix


Now as more tests are carried out we need to see the terrain hugging and sattelite navigation based (our own GPS) progress. Interestingly, Nirbhay to me looks more tech demonstrator for a much larger missile plan. The only issue i see is that at 0.7 Mach there is a good chance of it being taken out (even with Stingers i believe). So if we could raise the speed and may be instead of fan use a engine capable of changing speeds from from 0.7 to may 2 mach the potency of such smart weapon can be increased.

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you want a subsonic missile to travel at supersonic speeds...? I think ur dnt knw the purpose of this missile! Nirbhay is meant to travel at sub sonic... N there wil be no change in that! For super sonic, we have brahmos and for hypersonic we have shourya and B2 is comin!

shaheenmissile said:

Similarly Brahmos is a licenced production of Yakhont? And looking at similarities between air intake and wing opening system of Nirbhay and Klub class. Nirbay too can be said a modified Klub class?

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We have never claimed that it is fully indigenous. It is a much more potent version of Yakhont developed Yakhont as the base.

HariPrasad said:

So far as believing the claim is concern, I would prefer Mr. Saraswat over you.

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LOL.

RKO said:

you want a subsonic missile to travel at supersonic speeds...? I think ur dnt knw the purpose of this missile! Nirbhay is meant to travel at sub sonic... N there wil be no change in that! For super sonic, we have brahmos and for hypersonic we have shourya and B2 is comin!

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Subsonic missiles are meant for Long range and low altitude travelling. Pushing them beyond cruising speed result into fuel efficiency penalty resulting into shorter range. one article quote that its speed is some where arroung 985 KM Per hour.

I'm just glad we didn't test fire Nasr this time.

Bratva said:

So do you have any proof or a report which says it was tested with TERCOM and DSMAC?

And btw do you even know What Tercom and DSMAC is used for? And Does Brahmos goes in to Terrain Hugging mode? If yes than there is a logical explanation it requires TERCOM and DSMAC, If not then why are you wasting tercom in Brahmos when it didnt even go in to terrain huggin ?

If Yes then you would not have posted this gibberish

If not, then I advise you to read some material and difference b/w Sub-sonic and Super-Sonic cruise missiles and Why super sonic cruise missiles don;t need terrain hugging and Why Sub sonic needs terrain hugging and to achieve terrain hugging which navigation is used for it.

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Hi,

Preloaded terrain mappings with radar altimeter is not a recent innovation. Now as far as terrain hugging modes are concerned, some supersonic missiles have even better resources to achive that with digital gyroscope mated with high frequency ultrasonic transducers with high speed closed loop servo response systems for control surface actuation, which can deploy at any theater of conflict without pre-programming for flight path.

As far as digital realtime mapping target designation is concerned, there are adaptive control boards that can do a lot a processing in a common architecture board, like target correlation with digital mapping for multiple attack modes, active course correction, terminal guidance modes with active seeking, terminal guidance for dynamic targets. I wouldn't hesitate to say that the entire flight envelope in some missiles have their independent flight control laws which provides more modes of traverse than conventional operating modes. I have high hopes from the Indian team in guidance technology in the future.

RKO said:

you want a subsonic missile to travel at supersonic speeds...? I think ur dnt knw the purpose of this missile! Nirbhay is meant to travel at sub sonic... N there wil be no change in that! For super sonic, we have brahmos and for hypersonic we have shourya and B2 is comin!

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A supersonic dash at the terminal stage has it's own advantage.

sandy_3126 said:

Hi,

Preloaded terrain mappings with radar altimeter is not a recent innovation. Now as far as terrain hugging modes are concerned, some supersonic missiles have even better resources to achive that with digital gyroscope mated with high frequency ultrasonic transducers with high speed closed loop servo response systems for control surface actuation, which can deploy at any theater of conflict without pre-programming for flight path.

As far as digital realtime mapping target designation is concerned, there are adaptive control boards that can do a lot a processing in a common architecture board, like target correlation with digital mapping for multiple attack modes, active course correction, terminal guidance modes with active seeking, terminal guidance for dynamic targets. I wouldn't hesitate to say that the entire flight envelope in some missiles have their independent flight control laws which provides more modes of traverse than conventional operating modes. I have high hopes from the Indian team in guidance technology in the future.

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No doubt what you have said is true. But supersonic doesn't go over 400 Km range is it and there is no variation in it's altitude weather it is at Hi-Hi-Hi, or Hi-Lo-Hi it moves at a predetermined height like 100-50-100 meters or 100-100-100 meters not like 100-80-50-120-30 meters

Terrain hugging means different in super sonic and sub sonic.

And as the distance increases chances of introduction of INS drift errors began to show right ? You need to keep missile on Path or if you want to change path, that's where GPS signalling chips in.

Without Navigation maps, if a mountain comes in b/w missile flight path and missile flying at say 100 meters, It wouldn't have a clue to avoid that obstacle That's where Tercom comes in, A map mated to digital altimeter to know exactly at which places to fly at low height and at which places to fly at higher height and that's the concept of Tercom. You could not achieve dynamic altitude variations without TERCOM and that's the concept of Sub sonic missile, fly low, avoid obstacles in path reach target. Without Navigation maps mated with digital altimeter how could Cruise missile avoid obstacles ?

DSMAC is concept, it depends upon the user how he wants to implement. Weather to use co-relator or go with an active seeker or IIR seeker. There are no two opinions on this one




"The missile maintained an accuracy better than 10 meters throughout it's path and covered a
distance of more than 1000 km"

Can you explain to me what does this line mean from DRDO press release ?

What i said was about a smart weapon with speed changes from 0.7 mach while crusing to its target and speed up to sayh 2 when its nearings its target.. I never said Nirbhay can or should do that. But if there is a possibility of developing a smart weapon system which can do something like that then it opens a plethora of openings in the enemy camp as it is much more difficult to take a missile down with say closer to mach 2 speed then at 0.7 mach.
This is where all cruise missiles can at times get vulnerable. Btw the reason for speed changes is to optimum use of fuel onboard or else the range would severly get shortened. Anywys nirbhay is subsonic just like tomahawk/babur so should not matter but i would love to see how individually all othe systems avoids manpads and other anti missile systems from close range. May be Nirbhay can throw some surprise here on avoidance at real time basis.

Skull and Bones said:

A supersonic dash at the terminal stage has it's own advantage.

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Well an off topic question here.
As we know that DRDO is now developing an anti aircraft carrier ballastic missile though we know nothing about it right now. So What's chances are there that they are modifying Shourya/Sagarika missile for that role? Also Dhanush ballastic missiles can also be used as anti ship role and already deployed/tested from some ships so Is it possible to further develop it with more range for anti aircraft carrier purpose?