The Limited Military Utility of Pakistan’s "Battlefield Use" of Nuclear Weapons

ares said:

Well I am not much for conspiracy theories..there is a strong case for India possessing more nukes than what is being reported..but then their is way to prove it, hence the argument is redundant.

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The numbers are relatively unimportant at this point of time; in any case India has sought to up-scale its nuclear assets 'qualitatively' in recent times, rather than 'quantitatively'.

In any case; there is a huge difference in the Fissile Material available to India WRT that available to Pakistan.

HRK said:

plz rater to reply with long and irrelevant personal commentary post any document which says that

• Tactical nuclear arms in Europe are outdated:
• "The US Army is out of the tactical nuclear weapons business"

or at least read the links provided in my previous post ...... TNW are very much operational with US

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secondly let me remind you this thread is not about US TNW, but about the limited use of tactical nuclear weapon in Indo-Pakistan scenario.

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TacNukes exist around the world, there is no doubt about that. It is just that present conventional wisdom has done a serious re-think about their utility. The CW now does not look at TNW as some "magic bullets"; which can explain why TNW arsenals have stagnated, then reduced.

There is a reason for that.

danger007 said:

you want to tag ASHM as carrier killer.. just because India getting more carriers... how can CM 400 travel 240km with just 150-200 kg fuel...
don't forget jf 17 don't have capabilities to scan and track IM vessels from 300 to 400km distance. . ... it must be rely on AWACS... what if awac is shot down??? JF 17 can launch the missile @0.7 or 0.9 mach... can it get chance to slow down to launch this missile.. don't you think Indian awacs detect jf 17 when it airborne. .. jf 17 need to face superior mig 29...

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I quoted the post for you and you still can't get it why it will travel that distance, wow. PN & PAF are also modernizing not as IAF or IN but they are and NCW is very important for them, PN & PAF both operate UAVs which can guide missiles to theirs targets, same can be done by boats and ships and remember we have MRTP-33s which are quite stealthy and they can be used to guide other weapons to their targets, also Pakistan now have access to Chinese satellite network so its not walk in the park for IN & IAF in any future war.

JF-17 can hold against any thing what IN can through at it althoug Mig-29Ks are supirior in some aspects but JF-17 can hold and fight against it as it is build to do that, only major threat to it is MKI & Rafaels of IAF. It will be Mig-29s who will be running to defend the CBG of IN not JF-17s as they will have option to launch missiles from far distance and leave.

Basel said:

I quoted the post for you and you still can't get it why it will travel that distance, wow. PN & PAF are also modernizing not as IAF or IN but they are and NCW is very important for them, PN & PAF both operate UAVs which can guide missiles to theirs targets, same can be done by boats and ships and remember we have MRTP-33s which are quite stealthy and they can be used to guide other weapons to their targets, also Pakistan now have access to Chinese satellite network so its not walk in the park for IN & IAF in any future war.

JF-17 can hold against any thing what IN can through at it althoug Mig-29Ks are supirior in some aspects but JF-17 can hold and fight against it as it is build to do that, only major threat to it is MKI & Rafaels of IAF. It will be Mig-29s who will be running to defend the CBG of IN not JF-17s as they will have option to launch missiles from far distance and leave.

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so you want to say jf 17 build to do that ... and the IAF jets are bought for nothing. .. IN migs are dedicated for naval roles ... first answer me few things. .. what do you meant by safe distance. .. jf 17 need to slow down to launch cm ...don't say jf 17 is invisible to our migs even it carries missile at the size of CM 400... no jf 17 can't launch missile at far or its maximum distance. .. stop talking like fan boy...

Pakistan has a growing nuclear arsenal, the Pakistan military will ensure within the next decade that Pakistan has enough nukes to obliterate ALL of india and the missiles to reach all of india

It also has a massive conventional armoury, it has the conventional ability to cause any attacker especially india massive brutal losses


Pakistans battle field nukes were made with 1965 in mind

Pakistani major cities are relatively close to indian border they are now very heavily defended but the message is simple any armour column heading towards our cities will be decimated one way or the other

First through massive conventional forces and if needs be through battle field nukes

The message from the Pakistani military is simple if you dont want your forces obliterated DON'T make the mistake of any attack on Pakistan or our major/cities or installation

It is an effective deterrence

India is already aware of this and has already done a song and dance a couple of times after parliament attack, Mumbai etc where it has bought forces to the border only to send them back knowing the consequences

So deterrence achieved



Any attack on our nuclear installations is a red line that will result in nuclear war

Any attack on our major cities is a RED LINE and will result in nuclear war


Once our battle field nukes have been deployed our nuclear deterrence will be prepared and our Pakistani military will be prepared to any indian missiles or nuclear attack, a surprise attack is out of the question


If a battle field nuke has been used then the entire Pakistani arsenal will be primed ready to be fired expecting a indian attack, if it hasn't been prepared already, any surprise countrt attack because of a battle field nuke use by Pakistan will not be possible



The Pakistani military has drawn a red line we will use whatever we need to if the indians make the mistake of attacking our major cities or installations

As a deterrence its pretty effective with the message placed in indian minds that any invasion into Pakistan may cause annihilation for india

HariPrasad said:

You are right Bro but your army would not agree to that

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What about Indian Army .... ???

HRK said:

What about Indian Army .... ???

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They are under the civilian government control.

danger007 said:

240km???? total weight 400kg.. out of it 150kg to 200kg for the payload. .. do you think missile will travel 240km at mach 4 with just 200kg fuel????

lol carrier killer....

lol carrier killer....

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Total weight is 910 kg (2000 lb). Recalculate. (= Carrier killer)

"News reports have indicated the CM-400 has entered service with the Pakistan air force. The AVIC video notes vaguely that the 910kg (2,000lb) weapon “can be carried by JF-17, etc”. It is usually compared with the Indian/Russian Brahmos high-speed cruise missile."

DUBAI: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17 | Missile ThreatMissile Threat

danger007 said:

so you want to say jf 17 build to do that ... and the IAF jets are bought for nothing. .. IN migs are dedicated for naval roles ... first answer me few things. .. what do you meant by safe distance. .. jf 17 need to slow down to launch cm ...don't say jf 17 is invisible to our migs even it carries missile at the size of CM 400... no jf 17 can't launch missile at far or its maximum distance. .. stop talking like fan boy...

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dude before your IN Mig-29s even fly to intercept JF-17 near Pak border far from India, IN ships will be taking defensive measures because JF-17s will not be going solo to strike IN there are other assets which can hit much further then CM-400-AKG and PN have them.

Basel said:

dude before your IN Mig-29s even fly to intercept JF-17 near Pak border far from India, IN ships will be taking defensive measures because JF-17s will not be going solo to strike IN there are other assets which can hit much further then CM-400-AKG and PN have them.

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first answer me straight. . every jet is designed to do its role during war.. not just jf 17... jf 17 is bought due to lack of funds. .. it is not designed to MKI specific or mig specific. .

danger007 said:

first answer me straight. . every jet is designed to do its role during war.. not just jf 17... jf 17 is bought due to lack of funds. .. it is not designed to MKI specific or mig specific. .

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Let him be happy. Let them believe that a 900 Kg missile will travel at a speed of 5 mach and will kill career 300 KM away. If you try to tell them truth, many people will pop up here with nonsense argument and overwhelm you with Number and make you leave the discussion.

hussain0216 said:

Once our battle field nukes have been deployed our nuclear deterrence will be prepared and our Pakistani military will be prepared to any indian missiles or nuclear attack, a surprise attack is out of the question


If a battle field nuke has been used then the entire Pakistani arsenal will be primed ready to be fired expecting a indian attack, if it hasn't been prepared already, any surprise countrt attack because of a battle field nuke use by Pakistan will not be possible

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A single Arihant class sub deployed off the coast of Pakistan can pump 12 Nuclear ballistic missile(which are pre mated and ready to fire) into Pakistan in matter of minutes.

Costal cities such as Karachi will not even have half a minute reaction time.

Theoretically majority of your Nuclear arsenal/command and control can be wiped out in Indian first strike(not necessarily pre-emptive)..with almost no warning.


That is the kind of surprise attack India is gearing up for..is your SFC able to react in that kind of timeline?

Do you have airborne nuclear bombers, which can remain indefinitely airborne(atleast for the period of conflict)..to escape the enemy first strike?

Do you have SSBN/SSGNs which can remain indefinitely submerged to be able to surface launch a retaliatory strike?

So be careful before you use those TNWs, thinking, you ll get a fair warning, before India launches its nukes...giving you time to deploy rest of your arsenal.

ares said:

A single Arihant class sub deployed off the coast of Pakistan can pump 12 Nuclear ballistic missile(which are pre mated and ready to fire) into Pakistan in matter of minutes.

Costal cities such as Karachi will not even have half a minute reaction time.

Theoretically majority of your Nuclear arsenal/command and control can be wiped out in Indian first strike(not necessarily pre-emptive)..with almost no warning.


That is the kind of surprise attack India is gearing up for..is your SFC able to react in that kind of timeline?

Do you have airborne nuclear bombers, which can remain indefinitely airborne(atleast for the period of conflict)..to escape the enemy first strike?

Do you have SSBN/SSGNs which can remain indefinitely submerged to be able to surface launch a retaliatory strike?

So be careful before you use those TNWs, thinking, you ll get a fair warning, before India launches its nukes...giving you time to deploy rest of your arsenal.

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Rubbish

There is no Arihant subs deployed off Pakistan coast, Pakistan itself has 5 subs currently whilst working to obtain 5-6 more subs that will help Pakistan diversify our nuclear delivery options

Your entire statement falls down when you say theoretically the majority of Pakistans nuclear arsenal can be wiped out

Pakistan has between 100-200 nuclear war heads

You msy have a inclination where some of them are based but most will be hidden and protected

As SOON as Pakistans battlefield nukes are deployed, Pakistan will already pre prepare its nuclear and missile arsenal with the idea that things could escalate



Within the next decade Pakistan will ensure
that
it has enough nukes to destroy all of india
it has enough missiles to destroy all of india
it has missiles that will reach every part of india
and that it will diversify its delivery options including delivery from a sub platform

hussain0216 said:

Rubbish

There is no Arihant subs deployed off Pakistan coast, Pakistan itself has 5 subs currently whilst working to obtain 5-6 more subs that will help Pakistan diversify our nuclear delivery options

Your entire statement falls down when you say theoretically the majority of Pakistans nuclear arsenal can be wiped out

Pakistan has between 100-200 nuclear war heads

You msy have a inclination where some of them are based but most will be hidden and protected

As SOON as Pakistans battlefield nukes are deployed, Pakistan will already pre prepare its nuclear and missile arsenal with the idea that things could escalate


Within the next decade Pakistan will ensure
that
it has enough nukes to destroy all of india
it has enough missiles to destroy all of india
it has missiles that will reach every part of india
and that it will diversify its delivery options including delivery from a sub platform

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Lol..you have an IQ of a 12 yr old...could it be that, you are ?

1) Arihant is a SSBN, which can move through the ocean.. in case of war ..it can ordered anywhere the Naval High command wishes ..if its ordered 50 NM of the coast of Karachi..there is little you can do.

It does not need surface, the temperature gradient of Arabian sea is very conducive in hiding submarine noises.

2) Pakistan does not have a delivery platform which can fire Nukes from any existing submarine or even a future one...not to say they are all conventional subs and are relatively very small in size.

3) A theoretical ability to complete a task is a pre-requisite for a practical ability to exist..while analyst can measure theoretical ability when war gaming..practicality of a scenario can be only ascertained in an actual war

4) As per SIPRI Pakistan has between 100-120 weapons( incase you have a more reliable source..giving a different number..do share.

But problem for you is, they are all land based..and land based nukes have the least survivability against enemy first strike. Even countrys like USA and Soviet union which have huge land masses were paranoid enough.. to have hundreds of nuclear bomber in the air ..once a certain Defcon level was reached.

Country such a Britian..which have significantly smaller landmass has deployed its entire arsenal at sea.
As it knows, its land based assets will not survive enemy first strike.

So yes theoretically its possible to wipe out majority of Pakistan nuclear arsenal in a nuclear decapitation strike.

5) Once you fire your TNWs..India is free of its NFU obligation and its SSBN can respond with in minutes or as explained in my previous post.

Pakistan's Nuclear capable Missiles on subs is a wishful thinking like a news that Pakistan has capability to build 9000 KM range ICBM.

Your a moron saying the same thing

AS soon as pakistan fires or even deploys our battlefield nukes the rest of Pakistans nuclear arsenal will be prepared assuming their could be a escalation and they would need to be fired towards india

All Pakistans assets will be set to look out for any incoming missiles etc and a response will be given before anything in Pakistan is destroyed

Before any land based asset is destroyed it has to be identified and the assumption that India knows every location and will be able to hit it without a massive response is ridiculous



Pakistan is indeed looking to be able to fire nuclear missiles from subs, like everything else we will achieve it within the next decade

HariPrasad said:

Pakistan's Nuclear capable Missiles on subs is a wishful thinking like a news that Pakistan has capability to build 9000 KM range ICBM.

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Indians said the same thing about Jets, Tanks and cruise missiles

Pakistan will one way or other ensure it gets a survivable sea based nuclear platform within the next decade if not next few years