General Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force

sandy_3126 said:

Which won you the war, and caused breaking India into two parts, and a the most humiliating unilateral surrender since WWII. Right? Congrats on the achievement.

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The outcome of the war is one way to judge it, and yes to the victor goes the spoil. But even the British acknowledge the ferocity of the attacks by the Argentine pilots. Ironically, as much as the propaganda machine in Pakistan likes to play it.. and the one in India as well. The PAF actually performed MUCH better in 71 vis-a-vis its objectives than it did in 65.

Oscar said:

The outcome of the war is one way to judge it, and yes to the victor goes the spoil. But even the British acknowledge the ferocity of the attacks by the Argentine pilots. Ironically, as much as the propaganda machine in Pakistan likes to play it.. and the one in India as well. The PAF actually performed MUCH better in 71 vis-a-vis its objectives than it did in 65.

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I have to confess to some hidden sympathy for the Pakistani military. It must be galling to win every campaign, every battle, every skirmish, and still come out second - solely because of wholly disparate numbers.

Joe Shearer said:

I have to confess to some hidden sympathy for the Pakistani military. It must be galling to win every campaign, every battle, every skirmish, and still come out second - solely because of wholly disparate numbers.

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What does it really matter, Sir, as long as the Pak Army is able to convince its own people that it is indeed the winner? Who cares about what the rest of the world sees.

Joe Shearer said:

I have to confess to some hidden sympathy for the Pakistani military. It must be galling to win every campaign, every battle, every skirmish, and still come out second - solely because of wholly disparate numbers.

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we won some BATTLES and we lost some....still doesnt negate the fact that we taught your people the art of close quarter air combat in both '65 and to an extent '71

i suggest you read S. Sajad Haider's auto-bio "Flight of the Falcons" which is fairly neutral and gives a pure account of the air battles.

do that first, then shoot your mouth off

Oscar said:

The outcome of the war is one way to judge it, and yes to the victor goes the spoil. But even the British acknowledge the ferocity of the attacks by the Argentine pilots. Ironically, as much as the propaganda machine in Pakistan likes to play it.. and the one in India as well. The PAF actually performed MUCH better in 71 vis-a-vis its objectives than it did in 65.

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PAF had superior training program, better mission planning, there is no denying that. But IAF flew more offensive sorties took higher degree of risks, but comparatively had inferior mission planning at the start of the offensive. It was unfortunate the IAF did not have a watertight plan as the army had.

sandy_3126 said:

Which won you the war, and caused breaking India into two parts, and a the most humiliating unilateral surrender since WWII. Right? Congrats on the achievement.

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Did it actually take you two years to come up with a reply or have you just come out of a coma, let me once again remind you the subject at hand... General Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force....
It's not about the overall war or the outcome of it, ....as a former pilot, the American General was focusing on the aerial aspect of the warfare but i guess being a TT, you probably think you have the privilege to post off-topic.

Oscar said:

The outcome of the war is one way to judge it, and yes to the victor goes the spoil. But even the British acknowledge the ferocity of the attacks by the Argentine pilots. Ironically, as much as the propaganda machine in Pakistan likes to play it.. and the one in India as well. The PAF actually performed MUCH better in 71 vis-a-vis its objectives than it did in 65.

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Isn't it ironic that the Indian members never miss any chance to post images of Pakistani surrender in erstwhile East Pakistan, yet despite all the tall claims and terminologies, for the aerial war, they have nothing to show except shooting down a few F-86s. PAF can rightly be proud of the fact that it's performance against a much larger air arm resulted in a favourable kill ratio.

Abu Zolfiqar said:

we won some BATTLES and we lost some....still doesnt negate the fact that we taught your people the art of close quarter air combat in both '65 and to an extent '71

i suggest you read S. Sajad Haider's auto-bio "Flight of the Falcons" which is fairly neutral and gives a pure account of the air battles.

do that first, then shoot your mouth off

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LOL.

I am sorry, Sir, that you didn't, or wouldn't get the point.

So, if we go by your word, you taught our people the art of close quarter air combat in both '65 and to an extent '71. So what?

Just to comfort you, I have read more Pakistani accounts - they are candid and refreshing, as are most Pakistanis themselves, which is why I admire them - than Indian. After appreciating the neutrality, and the very well-written accounts of the air battles, the ugly facts still stare us in the face, and there is not much point in your shooting the messenger.

Eid Mubarak, btw.

Windjammer said:

Did it actually take you two years to come up with a reply or have you just come out of a coma, let me once again remind you the subject at hand... General Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force....
It's not about the overall war or the outcome of it, ....as a former pilot, the American General was focusing on the aerial aspect of the warfare but i guess being a TT, you probably think you have the privilege to post off-topic.

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I love the way we call attention to this or that or the other, as our urgent needs grip us. We have read enough about Chuck Yeager and his utterly ridiculous posturing during the actual conflict; please don't keep shoving him, or other little pets, down our throats. Enough.

VCheng said:

What does it really matter, Sir, as long as the Pak Army is able to convince its own people that it is indeed the winner? Who cares about what the rest of the world sees.

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There is something very peculiar about the situation.

ALMOST every single individual you meet from the PA, the PAF or the PN is a charming person.

Why does their collective, their gestalt personality, differ so radically?

Joe Shearer said:

I have to confess to some hidden sympathy for the Pakistani military. It must be galling to win every campaign, every battle, every skirmish, and still come out second - solely because of wholly disparate numbers.

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Pakistanis assess their 'victories' like teenagers assess school yard fisticuffs, after they get beat up.

Kid #1: Hey, did you see how I took a swing at you.
Kid #2: But I hit your face hard.
Kid #1: So? Didn't I take a swing at you?
Kid #2: Umm...but I broke your nose too.
Kid #1: Pffff...I took a swing at you. Admit it.
Kid #2: Ok. But you are bleeding.
Kid #1: Nonsense. I took a swing at you.
Kid #2: <sigh>

General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett was right after all.

toxic_pus said:

Pakistanis assess their 'victories' like teenagers assess school yard fisticuffs, after they get beat up.

Kid #1: Hey, did you see how I took a swing at you.
Kid #2: But I hit your face hard.
Kid #1: So? Didn't I take a swing at you?
Kid #2: Umm...but I broke your nose too.
Kid #1: Pffff...I took a swing at you. Admit it.
Kid #2: Ok. But you are bleeding.
Kid #1: Nonsense. I took a swing at you.
Kid #2: <sigh>

General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett was right after all.

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Likewise...
Pakistani member > PAF shot down your Canberra spy plane !
Indian member > Only because Indian pilot suddenly lost altitude ?
Pakistani member > PAF forced down IAF Ouragan !
Indian member > It lost it's way due to bad weather ?
Pakistani member > IAF surrendered a Gnat !
Indian member > Pilot lost radio and guns jammed ? (Later all found to be working perfectly)
Pakistani member > IA helicopter forced down !
Indian member > It crash landed (Inside Pakistan) ??
Pakistani member > Another IA helicopter forced down !
Indian member > Pilot lost direction due to adverse weather ?
Pakistani member > PA shot down two Indian MiGs during Kargil !
Indian member > only one was shot down, other went looking for him but malfunctioned... you bloodthirsty Pakistanis shot and killed one of our pilots. ??
God bless you Justice Katju. !!!

Joe Shearer said:

There is something very peculiar about the situation.
ALMOST every single individual you meet from the PA, the PAF or the PN is a charming person.
Why does their collective, their gestalt personality, differ so radically?

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It is the same reason why homes in Pakistan are mostly clean, but the streets outside are filthy. What you note as being peculiar is a characteristic of a society without orderly structures and leadership that reduces hardworking decent individuals into a discombobulated mess.

sandy_3126 said:

PAF had superior training program, better mission planning, there is no denying that. But IAF flew more offensive sorties took higher degree of risks, but comparatively had inferior mission planning at the start of the offensive. It was unfortunate the IAF did not have a watertight plan as the army had.

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I would recommend you go through these blogs to get an idea of what a balanced view of the 71 war from the Pakistani side looks like
Aeronaut: PAF on the Offensive - 1971 War

Oscar said:

I would recommend you go through these blogs to get an idea of what a balanced view of the 71 war from the Pakistani side looks like
Aeronaut: PAF on the Offensive - 1971 War

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Thanks, @Oscar.

I read it again with the same pleasure that I had read it the first time. I am trying to get copies of these books to keep. Unfortunately, without a steady job, I dare not spend too much money: the sort of private university I work for are not very stable, and I live from day to day. However, last Saturday I ordered a copy of The Way It Was at the English Book Depot, and hope to be a proud owner in a few days.

Z. A. Khan and Kaisar Tufail have both been personal favourites - as authors - of mine since I first read them.

Windjammer said:

PA shot down two Indian MiGs during Kargil !

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And we know this isn't true.

gslv mk3 said:

And we know this isn't true.

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And i have presented a breakdown proving how you or rather India always come up with lame explanations and excuses.