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Afghanistan: Defeated America & Pakistan

Everyone has and will keep on playing with the lives of Afghans unless untill they start using their brains.

For the world, weak are the testbeds and their lives mean nothing to them, Afghans must wake up and should keep only one thing in mind, they need to push every allien out of afghanistan including USA, ARABS, RUSSIANS, INDIANS, ISRAELIS, PAKISTANIS, UZBEKS, TAJIKS ETC.

Only then will peace prevail in aghanistan.

As far as American Presence in afghanistan is concerned, there is no doubt in it that it will hurt everyone and destabilize the whole region, be it pakistan, Iran, Russia, China or India(at a later stage).

So those who are trying to work and serve their personal grudge and enimity on USA shoulders will also suffer, same will be the case with those who think their alliance with the monster will buy them a long life, they are damn wrong, their pathetic, miserable and honourless life may be extended for a few freakin days to suffer more but they'd be put to the task by the aggressor.

All of us need to wake up...
 
Pakistan has proven time and again that its strategies vs the militants and Afghanistan in general are more effective than those of the US. So its pretty safe to understand our goals in Afghanistan would be much different than those of America's.

I completely agree with your statement about Pakistan's success rate against militants, in comparison to that of the US. The Americans have never been successful against any guerrilla warfare.
Then again, I am not very good at strategies of war, and if you are right, then from my point of view I fail to understand why would Pakistan not help the US against the militants and get over this war that is already costing the Pakistan state a lot of resources.

I don't think they will, hence the smiley face.

lol I am sorry I missed out on that one :P


OK. Pakistan would find a new group to support. A new Pashtun group. Do the same as what we did with the Taliban. America didn't support the Pashtuns, it couldn't, they are foreigners for them, Pakistan has more Pashtun than Afghanistan's. We can infiltrate their society more easily and even gather support.

From the Pashtun lands you can control all of Afghanistan.

Yes Asim, that does sound very plausible, except for the fact that Pakistan is unable to contain the insurgencies in its own land caused by a much weaker (than Afghan Taliban) TTP. What I imply here is that when Pakistan is going through such turmoil (the explosions in major cities do look very serious to me), why does it not use the same strategy. After all, it is a Pashtun inhabited area where the TTP has set up its camps.
 
The only thing Afghan and Pak are kept together is religion. Otherwise, there would be no trust at all.

Also, I know my previous post was a little mean but its just through my personal experiences that i'm not very fond of some Afghani's so just wanted to clear that up...
 
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Graphican, your entire projection is based on the premise that the USA will get defeated and pull out completely, and so will India, leaving Mullah Omar to rule Afghanistan. The world will never accept that! Even in the past, the world did not accept that. Only three countries had recognized Taliban's legitimacy..

US cant stay in Afghanistan forever. Even in CNN recently they said Taliban controls 80% of Afghanistan now and they are getting stronger, and I dont think US will spend another TRILLION dollars on Afghanistan. However, I dont think it'll be good for Pakistan if Afghan Taliban regain control of Afghanistan because Pakistan sided with US in this war and Afghan Taliban wont be friendly with Pakistan as they used to be before US invasion of Afghanistan.

Secondly, Talibanis do not appreciate democracy, so I do not understand why would they not come after a democratic Pakistan and bring it under their version of Sharia, esp after having seen their victory in Afghanistan against a country like the mighty USA...

Very unlikely. They'll be too busy tring to establish their version of Islam all across Afghanistan, even the areas where there are majority Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara population that always resisted the Taliban. For them, control of entire Afghanistan is more important than control of Pakistan.

Thirdly, geopolitics does not go on the lines of 'friendship' and likeness (ex: China is Pakistan's friend... NO! Chinese have interest in the region, and need to achieve something, that's all). Similarly, Taliban also has its own interest, and will very easily make lucrative deals with their yesteryear foe, the USA, to supply oil from Central Asia. They were already on it with UNOCAL, when the Taliban government was in power, despite the fact that it was not recognized by the USA....

Yes you are right. Afghan Taliban will look for best interest of their country. They think if they are in control of Afghanistan, then its the only way for Afghanistan to succeed. Of course they are going to look after Afghanistan's interest while sticking to their ideologies.

Finally, entire Afghanistan knows that Pakistanis look at Afghans with contempt, so what makes you think Afghanistan (even under Taliban) will not look for others (even India or the USA) to help them against Pakistan's incursions? - One simple, though insignificant, example:....

Thats incorrect. Pakistanis never looked at Afghans as contempt. Since the independence of Pakistan in 1947, Pakistan had no conflicts with Afghans, we never secured the border with Afghanistan our attention was always toward securing borders with India. The people living near Pak-Afghan border travelled back and forth thinking as if Pakistan and Afghanistan was just one big country of theirs.


All these years, how much and how often has Pakistan invested in Afghanistan's infrastructure? A country like India, no matter what its objectives, has spent more on infrastructure in Afghanistan, than has Pakistan. Do you think Afghans do not see that?.

Pakistan and India are both 3rd world developing countries with millions of people living below the poverty line. Both countries should develop their own infrastructure first. You are talking as if India is US and Pakistan is Canada that we have billions of dollars to build infrastructure in another 3rd world country. What about helping our own people first, but I know India sees this as a once in a lifetime golden oppurtunity because Karzai (indian puppet) is the leader of Afghanistan and Afghanistan is important because of its strategic location, being part of both Central and South Asia.

I seriously doubt a Talibani government in Afghanistan will be very beneficial for a Punjabi/Baloch/Sindhi ruled Pakistan.

You forgot to mention the 2nd largest ethnic group in Pakistan. Pashtuns.

The only common ground between Afghans and Pakistanis is Islam, and there too we can see the some wide cracks appearing because of their difference in interpretation of Islam as a whole..

Afghans and the people in western half of Pakistan share many similarities...and thats why whenever there's something that happens in Afghanistan, Afghans chose to migrate into Pakistan. For decades, Pakistan has hoisted the largest Afghan refugee population in the world and there's still millions of Afghans living in Pakistan. Just near my uncle's house in Islamabad, lived a large Afghan community. How many Afghans are there in India?

In my personal opinion, Pakistan can only benefit by helping the USA so much in this war, that they win quickly against the Taliban. Then Pakistan can invest its time and energy internally, become stable, and enjoy the benefits of it being in a critical position when oil flows from the Central Asia. May be then, with its newly found importance, Pakistan may also have some leverage over India on border/Kashmir issues.

Thats a possibility, but I think enough is enough and after all TTP members are extinct we should stop the war. Pakistanis are sick of war.
 
I completely agree with your statement about Pakistan's success rate against militants, in comparison to that of the US. The Americans have never been successful against any guerrilla warfare.
Then again, I am not very good at strategies of war, and if you are right, then from my point of view I fail to understand why would Pakistan not help the US against the militants and get over this war that is already costing the Pakistan state a lot of resources.
Differing interests. Jumping into Afghanistan is exactly the sort of wrong mindset that the US carries. If I may try to delve into the mind of General Kayani, I believe his goal is to keep the conflict manageable and make the enemy fight on his terms. Unlike the US, Pakistan hates the idea about fighting on multiple fronts, because that gives the militants the advantage of hit and run policy. By clearing off one area at a time we gain territory and the militants lose it.

Pakistan would like to clear and secure FATA first and let the US keep the Taliban busy in Afghanistan. We're using the Americans much like a lightning rod, which attracts the Taliban to it while we can get rid of the TTP.

A defeated America right now would probably have that Taliban diverted onto us.

Yes Asim, that does sound very plausible, except for the fact that Pakistan is unable to contain the insurgencies in its own land caused by a much weaker (than Afghan Taliban) TTP. What I imply here is that when Pakistan is going through such turmoil (the explosions in major cities do look very serious to me), why does it not use the same strategy. After all, it is a Pashtun inhabited area where the TTP has set up its camps.

Well Pakistan made a mistake while the Tora Bora fight was going on. We took directives from the US who themselves have proven to be all brawn and no brains. Musharraf carried out massive campaigns against the Taliban like the US does and ended up paying the same price. In other instances he cleared off the area and left it only to be reoccupied by the Taliban.

General Kayani went step by step. Cleared off Swat, then surrounding Agencies, then started with Waziristan against TTP. Slowly he will spread the write of the Pakistani government into all the Tribal areas.

With the new Obama Surge, Americans are probably trying the same. They have focused the surge upon, Nowzad, Helmand. In my opinion they should first fully secure Helmand. From Pakistan's side, it has sent off troops to the Helmand-Pakistan Border to block off any escaping Taliban this time around.

If this would've been planned before Tora Bora was conducted, we could've had nipped this in the bud earlier on.

Bush and Mush were all about the big gestures and ignored the little things, the basics.
 
Even if America leaves they will establish permanent military bases similar to the ones in Japan, Korea etc... Only way of defeating nexus of evil (Nato/America/ India /Afghanistan) is by aligning with Iran Russia and central Asian republics to combat Indian American and Afghan ambitions of annexing NWFP and Baluchistan. The main reason behind the current military surge in Afghanistan. Agitate certain ethnic groups inside Pakistan, ignite a civil war and invade and declare independence for the region effectively Balkanizing Pakistan. (Blackwater genocidal tyrants):taz:

Indian scum RAW is providing education to the afghan military intelligence RAMA (unthankful bastards) through which they could accomplish their goals... precisely the same scheme raw bastards employed in Bangladesh.

RAMA, RAW, and CIA are simultaneously working together to destabilize Pakistan.

Permanent American military bases can only be established through the eternal open passage of Baluchistan and nwfp. Far-reaching ramifications for the region; Russia would lose control over oil rich central Asian subservient captives. Iran would essentially become another volatile Pakistan, and India would gain all of Kashmir and northern territories (secure water supply). It is crucial we shift our alliance and interests. The true reason behind Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was to thwart American objective of a new state (forgot name). The motive behind Zia assassination? He was about to switch sides...
 
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Why so much love for Taliban? Just because they are fighting the US in Afghanistan doesn't make them right. What about the civilians dying in Afghan cities? don't their lives matter?
 
Even if America leaves they will establish permanent military bases similar to the ones in Japan, Korea etc... Only way of defeating nexus of evil (Nato/America/ India /Afghanistan) is by aligning with Iran Russia and central Asian republics to combat Indian American and Afghan ambitions of annexing NWFP and Baluchistan. The main reason behind the current military surge in Afghanistan. Agitate certain ethnic groups inside Pakistan, ignite a civil war and invade and declare independence for the region effectively Balkanizing Pakistan. (Blackwater genocidal tyrants):taz:

Indian scum RAW is providing education to the afghan military intelligence RAMA (unthankful bastards) through which they could accomplish their goals... precisely the same scheme raw bastards employed in Bangladesh.

Permanent American military bases can only be established through the eternal open passage of Baluchistan and nwfp. Far-reaching ramifications for the region; Russia would lose control over rich central Asian subservient captives. Iran would essentially become another volatile Pakistan, and India would gain all of Kashmir and northern territories (secure water supply). It is crucial we shift our alliance and interests. The true reason behind Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was to thwart American objective of a new state (forgot name). The motive behind Zia assassination? He was about to switch sides...

NATO/America/India attacking Afghanistan to capture Baluchistan and NWFP. Iran to become Pakistan, Pakistan to become Balkan, Genocidal Blackwater maniacs on the loose.

And Ziaul Haq switching sides to prevent the formation of a new American state?

Sounds plausable:coffee:
 
Why so much love for Taliban? Just because they are fighting the US in Afghanistan doesn't make them right. What about the civilians dying in Afghan cities? don't their lives matter?

It is not the love for Taliban, it is the hatred for US and their policies of aggression.
The loss of innocent lives is tragic and condemnable. But the dilemma is that information is slanted in order to make the masses believe what they are fed with, justifications are provided for carpet bombings and drone attacks that kill 10 civilians to take out 1 terrorist. The right to kill civilians in order to settle scores with your enemy is reserved for US only ?
 
It is not the love for Taliban, it is the hatred for US and their policies of aggression.
The loss of innocent lives is tragic and condemnable. But the dilemma is that information is slanted in order to make the masses believe what they are fed with, justifications are provided for carpet bombings and drone attacks that kill 10 civilians to take out 1 terrorist. The right to kill civilians in order to settle scores with your enemy is reserved for US only ?
Killing innocents can never be justified under any circumstances, and the US should be held accountable for the loss of lives in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Americans probably don't give a **** if 10 or a 100 civilians die in a missile attack but what about Taliban?

The people they are killing in bomb blasts are the very people whose liberation they are said to be fighting for.

It doesn't matter if its committed for a noble cause, murder is murder, and Taliban, whether Pakistani or Afghan, are murderers.
 
Killing innocents can never be justified under any circumstances, and the US should be held accountable for the loss of lives in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Americans probably don't give a **** if 10 or a 100 civilians die in a missile attack but what about Taliban?

The people they are killing in bomb blasts are the very people whose liberation they are said to be fighting for.

It doesn't matter if its committed for a noble cause, murder is murder, and Taliban, whether Pakistani or Afghan, are murderers.

Yes the Taliban regime was brutal and followed an extremist school of thought, they tried to influence their understanding of religion on people but never blew themselves up for mere pleasure of getting any sort of kick out of it.

Now the Americans came into Afghanistan to destroy the Al-Qaeda network and capture its top brass. American officials are on record for saying that they lost track of OBL 7/8 years ago. So what are they doing there ?

We need to understand one thing that scores are never settled between two parties fighting each other, in the mist of confusion every opportunist will play its role in its own capacity in order to safe guard its interests. Now who knows how many different proxy wars are going on in Afghanistan under the most convenient banner of Taliban. Take TTP for an example, they claim to be the same Taliban who fought the Soviets, name one leader of TTP who had any role to play in Afghanistan, they were probably sucking on popsicles during that time, Afghan taliban have disowned them time and again and have categorically condemned suicide attacks against civilians, but that never gets highlighted.

The goal for the ones funding Afghan Taliban is to make U.S pack its bags and leave the region.
While the ones funding TTP want to destabilize Pakistan.

It is not as simple as we think it is.
 
Indian scum RAW is providing education to the afghan military intelligence RAMA (unthankful bastards) through which they could accomplish their goals... precisely the same scheme raw bastards employed in Bangladesh.

If R&AW is so good that it is turning Pakistan into a battlefield, then I suppose it deserves more respect than that.

This forum is not a ventilation for anyone's frustration. People here come from diverse backgrounds that may be very different from yours. Please keep such language to yourself.
 
Both Talaban and US need war so they are fighting better let them continue fight uptill both of them get exhausted or anyone of them.

US has biggest weapon industry which need wars in the world to run these industries and continue economic wheel of US moving on other hand Talaban also love wars , their economics run on weapons sale,norcotics etc.:D
 
Differing interests. Jumping into Afghanistan is exactly the sort of wrong mindset that the US carries. If I may try to delve into the mind of General Kayani, I believe his goal is to keep the conflict manageable and make the enemy fight on his terms. Unlike the US, Pakistan hates the idea about fighting on multiple fronts, because that gives the militants the advantage of hit and run policy. By clearing off one area at a time we gain territory and the militants lose it.

Pakistan would like to clear and secure FATA first and let the US keep the Taliban busy in Afghanistan. We're using the Americans much like a lightning rod, which attracts the Taliban to it while we can get rid of the TTP.

A defeated America right now would probably have that Taliban diverted onto us.



Well Pakistan made a mistake while the Tora Bora fight was going on. We took directives from the US who themselves have proven to be all brawn and no brains. Musharraf carried out massive campaigns against the Taliban like the US does and ended up paying the same price. In other instances he cleared off the area and left it only to be reoccupied by the Taliban.

General Kayani went step by step. Cleared off Swat, then surrounding Agencies, then started with Waziristan against TTP. Slowly he will spread the write of the Pakistani government into all the Tribal areas.

With the new Obama Surge, Americans are probably trying the same. They have focused the surge upon, Nowzad, Helmand. In my opinion they should first fully secure Helmand. From Pakistan's side, it has sent off troops to the Helmand-Pakistan Border to block off any escaping Taliban this time around.

If this would've been planned before Tora Bora was conducted, we could've had nipped this in the bud earlier on.

Bush and Mush were all about the big gestures and ignored the little things, the basics.

You sound very optimistic with the current scene. Are you confident that now Pakistan and the USA will win this war on their own terms?

My take is a little different: It is the US that wants this war to linger on, and use this long time as an excuse to install numerous military bases first in Afghanistan, and then in Pakistan (signs: influx of Blackwater/Xe and enlargement of the embassy), so as to have complete control on the oil that flows from the Caspian. This will provide the US some strong grounds to dictate its own rate of rent when using Afghanistan and Pakistan's land to transport oil. It matters, because capturing the oil fields in the Caspian is not as difficult as is managing and maintaining unhindered flow to the Arabian Sea.
 

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