Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel 26 Aug,

[YeBeWarned]

You might consider the interview with Benazir Bhutto where she states that Pakistan has thrown a lot of money and resources at the Taliban as proof of the tight relationship.
This has been discussed several times on PDF, so the links should be easy to find.

if we take BB words as Gospel truth than we should take Trumps words as truth as well , Obama is founder of ISIS ..

 

[KAMDEV]

Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel

WASHINGTON DC - Pakistan has been playing a double role in Afghanistan while dealing with the Taliban, alleged a veteran United States army colonel, Lawrence Sellin.

Sellin, who has served in Afghanistan, northern Iraq and a humanitarian mission of West Africa, wrote in The Daily Caller that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) provided arms and ammunition to Taliban fighters in October 2001, just after US bombing of Afghanistan began.

The then Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf held a meeting with ISI director Lt. Gen. Mahmod Ahmed and other top brass of the army, who argued that Pakistan should not help the United States at all in its war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

"Pakistan has continued for seventeen years. While accepting billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Pakistan has been slowly bleeding the US to death in Afghanistan through its support of the Taliban, Haqqani Network, said colonel (retd.) Sellin.

America and it's allies have lost around 4,000 soldiers and over 20,000 US and NATO soldiers have been injured in Afghanistan.

Shortly before his death in 2015, Lt. General Hamid Gul, the former head of Pakistan's ISI, a committed Islamist and known as the "godfather of the Taliban", explained Pakistan's strategy in Afghanistan in an Urdu television interview.

"One day, history will say the ISI drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan with the help of USA and another sentence will be recorded that says the ISI drove the USA out of Afghanistan with the help of the USA".

Coln is important?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

And that is no secret nor disputed...Taliban were in fact used as a tool. However when WoT was declared Pak joined USA and they both took action against the Taliban, which in turn made them Pak's enemies. Ever considered what TTP stands for? It stands for "Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan". It's the militant group that has wreaked havoc across Pakistan carrying out various bombings, shootings, etc. U should check how many terrorist attacks happened in Pak before 2001...then compare it to the terrorist attacks that started occurring after Pak joined USA and turned against these groups. Pakistan created an enemy for itself out of thin air at the behest of USA. This is the enemy Pak has been fighting for more than a decade.

So in a quick recap of history...yes she was in the government pre WoT where she would have had knowledge of how the west and Pak together created the Taliban. She would also be privy to the knowledge how they were an important tool for Pak. Anything regarding Taliban at the beginning of and during WoT(2001 and after)...she would have zero knowledge regarding that.

The topic at hand being discussed is the "double game" that Pak is supposedly playing, where Pak is siding against the Taliban on one hand in WoT while also supposedly aiding them on the other. So the argument of using her statements to "prove" some sort of double game(the term only applies post 2001 btw if that's not clear enough) Pak is playing...just falls flat on its face.

It is proof that there have been close relations between Pakistan and the Taliban.
The fact that many here on PDF support the Taliban in Afghanistan, is circumstantial evidence.
They make a point if differeing between Afghani Taliban and TTP and claim they are not the same. Are they traitors then?

 

[Cookie Monster]

It is proof that there have been close relations between Pakistan and the Taliban.

And since when was this a subject of discussion?

Did u not know that Pakistan had close relations with the Taliban? Yes Pakistan and the West together created them/armed them/trained them...

Anybody who hasn't been living under a rock all these years knows that. It's a fact and cannot be contested/debated

For the nth time...the topic we r discussing is the "double game" that Pakistan is supposedly playing...a double game can only be played after 2001...and not while all the parties(US/Pak/Taliban) were on the same side

Let me break down in simpler terms what "double game" Pak is being accused of and what we r discussing...
After WoT was declared both Pak/US turned against the Taliban and fought them and the Taliban turned against US/Pak and fought back. However some ppl every now and then rant that Pakistan has been playing a double game and also supporting Taliban...while fighting them...
For which I asked where is the proof other than some ppl's rants?
There is rock solid proof of Pakistan fighting them for more than a decade now...but no proof for any double game...just rants.

So in conclusion...Benazir's claims don't amount to proof of a "double game" bcuz she was nowhere near the Pak government during WoT(2001 and after)...wasn't even in the country.
Now if u can follow a simple timeline, I hope u finally understand how ur argument makes no sense.

The fact that many here on PDF support the Taliban in Afghanistan, is circumstantial evidence.
They make a point if differeing between Afghani Taliban and TTP and claim they are not the same. Are they traitors then?

Oh I see so now we r devolving further. First u try to use Benazir's statements(opinions...as demonstrated above and in the previous post) as some sort of solid proof...and just in case if that doesn't work u try to take the opinions of some random members on some forum as a "circumstantial evidence" of Pak's "double game".

Sure that makes a lot of sense...opinions somehow are now equal to evidence. Lol by that reasoning I guess the opinions of flat earth believers can also be used as "circumstantial evidence" by another flat earth believer

U r a senior member here...I expect a better discussion than clinging to straws. It seems from ur posts that ur mind is made up towards a certain perspective so let's see what u have to say about this below...

Let's use ur reasoning which is...
Pakistan is playing a "double game", bcuz it's differentiating between Taliban(based on ur quote above in red)

Look here how the US differentiates between the Taliban. Here is a list of foreign terrorist organizations by the US state department...and as u can see TTP(Tehreek-Taliban Pakistan) is on there while the Afghan Taliban are not...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni...tment_list_of_Foreign_Terrorist_Organizations

There was another news article I read a while back(towards the end of Obama administration and before Trump administration), where a US official(I think he was from the US State Department)...said something along the lines of "they(Afghan Taliban) operate like a terrorist organization(in terms of carrying out attacks) but they are not a terrorist organization".
I'm paraphrasing here...and I couldn't find the link to the article right now(I'm short on time and there are just way too many news articles about the Taliban/Afghanistan for me to dig through at the moment).

So now I'm curious if u think that US is playing a "double game" here since US is differentiating between the Taliban? U gonna judge the US by that same reasoning...or gonna change up ur reasoning now bcuz it's the US?
Patiently waiting for ur reply

Note: see above how I used actual official data instead of ppl's hearsay on some random forum as "circumstantial evidence".

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

And since when was this a subject of discussion?

Did u not know that Pakistan had close relations with the Taliban? Yes Pakistan and the West together created them/armed them/trained them...

Anybody who hasn't been living under a rock all these years knows that. It's a fact and cannot be contested/debated

For the nth time...the topic we r discussing is the "double game" that Pakistan is supposedly playing...a double game can only be played after 2001...and not while all the parties(US/Pak/Taliban) were on the same side

Let me break down in simpler terms what "double game" Pak is being accused of and what we r discussing...
After WoT was declared both Pak/US turned against the Taliban and fought them and the Taliban turned against US/Pak and fought back. However some ppl every now and then rant that Pakistan has been playing a double game and also supporting Taliban...while fighting them...
For which I asked where is the proof other than some ppl's rants?
There is rock solid proof of Pakistan fighting them for more than a decade now...but no proof for any double game...just rants.

So in conclusion...Benazir's claims don't amount to proof of a "double game" bcuz she was nowhere near the Pak government during WoT(2001 and after)...wasn't even in the country.
Now if u can follow a simple timeline, I hope u finally understand how ur argument makes no sense.

Oh I see so now we r devolving further. First u try to use Benazir's statements(opinions...as demonstrated above and in the previous post) as some sort of solid proof...and just in case if that doesn't work u try to take the opinions of some random members on some forum as a "circumstantial evidence" of Pak's "double game".

Sure that makes a lot of sense...opinions somehow are now equal to evidence. Lol by that reasoning I guess the opinions of flat earth believers can also be used as "circumstantial evidence" by another flat earth believer

U r a senior member here...I expect a better discussion than clinging to straws. It seems from ur posts that ur mind is made up towards a certain perspective so let's see what u have to say about this below...

Let's use ur reasoning which is...
Pakistan is playing a "double game", bcuz it's differentiating between Taliban(based on ur quote above in red)

Look here how the US differentiates between the Taliban. Here is a list of foreign terrorist organizations by the US state department...and as u can see TTP(Tehreek-Taliban Pakistan) is on there while the Afghan Taliban are not...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni...tment_list_of_Foreign_Terrorist_Organizations

There was another news article I read a while back(towards the end of Obama administration and before Trump administration), where a US official(I think he was from the US State Department)...said something along the lines of "they(Afghan Taliban) operate like a terrorist organization(in terms of carrying out attacks) but they are not a terrorist organization".
I'm paraphrasing here...and I couldn't find the link to the article right now(I'm short on time and there are just way too many news articles about the Taliban/Afghanistan for me to dig through at the moment).

So now I'm curious if u think that US is playing a "double game" here since US is differentiating between the Taliban? U gonna judge the US by that same reasoning...or gonna change up ur reasoning now bcuz it's the US?
Patiently waiting for ur reply

Note: see above how I used actual official data instead of ppl's hearsay on some random forum as "circumstantial evidence".

For the umpteenth time, the West did not create the Taliban.
The US and Pakistan supported the Mujahedin, until the Soviets left.
The Mujahedin was a name for several different resistance movements.
The Taliban never were part of the Mujahedin during the Soviet period.

The Taliban was created 3-4 years later.
The US did not provide any support during the critical period from its creation 1994, to 1996, when Kabul was overrun. Pakistan did, and when the Mujahedin under Massoud defeated them, Pakistan stepped up its support until they could overwhelm the Mujahedin. After the victory was obvious, some former Mujahedin allied themselves with the Taliban.

To claim that the US created the Taliban is therefore dishonest.

I brough up the fact that the Taliban is the baby carefully nurtured by Pakistan,
because it is important background information.

After 9/11 Bush told the world to choose sides. Pakistan did not dare to oppose the US then.
Pakistanis constantly declare themselves as enemies of the West.
It is no surprise that US top brass believes them.

 

[Sinnerman108]

For the umpteenth time, the West did not create the Taliban.
The US and Pakistan supported the Mujahedin, until the Soviets left.
The Mujahedin was a name for several different resistance movements.
The Taliban never were part of the Mujahedin during the Soviet period.

The Taliban was created 3-4 years later.
The US did not provide any support during the critical period from its creation 1994, to 1996, when Kabul was overrun. Pakistan did, and when the Mujahedin under Massoud defeated them, Pakistan stepped up its support until they could overwhelm the Mujahedin. After the victory was obvious, some former Mujahedin allied themselves with the Taliban.

To claim that the US created the Taliban is therefore dishonest.

I brough up the fact that the Taliban is the baby carefully nurtured by Pakistan,
because it is important background information.

After 9/11 Bush told the world to choose sides. Pakistan did not dare to oppose the US then.
Pakistanis constantly declare themselves as enemies of the West.
It is no surprise that US top brass believes them.

NO

The fact that the US left Afghanistan abruptly, without any planning gave birth to a power vacuum.
Mujahideen as you mentioned were consistent of several groups ( local war lords )
which began fighting among themselves for power once USSR left.

Taliban were and are to most part a reaction to the above two factors.

Pakistan will align with anyone, who will remain friendly to Pakistan, and not allow enemies to threaten us from western border.

 

[tarrar]

And they should continue to do so.

 

[BATMAN]

If US think so than they should leave and stop sucking blood of Pakistani tax payers in shape of free transit aid!

 

[cloud4000]

If US think so than they should leave and stop sucking blood of Pakistani tax payers in shape of free transit aid!

Who do you think transports things to and from Afghanistan? US pays money to Pakistan transport companies, who employ countless Pakistanis. Pakistanis are also used to load and unload ships filled with US equipment. To say US is getting a free is a bit of a stretch.

 

[BATMAN]

Who do you think transports things to and from Afghanistan? US pays money to Pakistan transport companies, who employ countless Pakistanis. Pakistanis are also used to load and unload ships filled with US equipment. To say US is getting a free is a bit of a stretch.

Transit fees and shipping costs are two different things.
Transit is charged by Turkey, Egypt, Panama... irrespective of how much ship charge for transporting costs.

We don't give a f**k!!!!!!!!............so F**k you america.......

But Obama was good... no?

 

[SQ8]

It is possible since national interests matter. What are national interests is what a nation needs to define rather than one institution or even a cabal within an institution.

After all, the US primary intelligence service “let” 9-11 happen in an attempt to avoid intelligence sharing and avoid losing a future beneift they assumed.

 

[django]

Don't get me started on definition of terror. There is no way you can fight terror with such a selective attitude. Someone who uses violence for any end goal is a blot on society. You will see the consequences of this in Pakistan. This narrative of holy wars and azzadi if applied to Kashmir, then it will be applied in parts of Pakistan too.

Anyway, we don't have to do a thing with US on your back. If Imran Khan does not deradicalise the education system, even US needs to do little. A red self destruct button is waiting to be pressed.

Now, now Gangadeshi, for some unknown reason it was somehow noble of Gangadesh to back it's Ganga brethren the "Mukhti Bani" in perpetrating horrific acts of violence yet when Pakistan backs it fellow Indus brethren the "Kashmiris" we are somehow culpable and enablers of terrorism, I state without any reservation that when it comes down to morality Gangadeshis are the biggest hypocrites the good Lord ever created.Kudos Ganga-dweller

 

[Umair Nawaz]

You might consider the interview with Benazir Bhutto where she states that Pakistan has thrown a lot of money and resources at the Taliban as proof of the tight relationship.
This has been discussed several times on PDF, so the links should be easy to find.

we r talking abt taliban who resurrected post 2001 period under mullah umer. around 2004/05, the taliban of today r those taliban, the old ones got destroyed or r in Guantanamo bay

 

[wali87]

We are in this hopeless economic and military position
We are in this hopeless economic and military position particularly because our government played a double game with the Americans. First the Fauj led hakoomat makes a decision without consulting anyone and turns half of pakhtoons and afghans in kpk into our enemies.. it took 16 years and thousands of lives to change that. Our entire populations mentality has been altered due to countless bombings. Thousands of our young army and police officers lost theirs lives. Not to mention the helpless civilians.

So when you say bleeding US your only fooling yourself. Look at our wartorn nation. It is Pakistan who has suffered the most. Only because of stupid decision that an unelected dictator took without consulting even his own Corp commanders.
Please guys learn to state facts as they are.

We shouldn’t have played this double game from the beginning. Either should’ve sided with the Taliban or with the US. You can’t have both legs in two houses at the same time. I believe it is due to over ambitious generals such as Mr. Hamid Gul and the narrative that they promote that we are where we are today. No disrespect.

 

[Cookie Monster]

For the umpteenth time, the West did not create the Taliban.
The US and Pakistan supported the Mujahedin, until the Soviets left.
The Mujahedin was a name for several different resistance movements.
The Taliban never were part of the Mujahedin during the Soviet period.

It's better to read up on the subject u start arguing about instead of just diving in head first and looking like a fool...see below, this is taken straight from Wikipedia, which honestly would've taken u 5-10 min to find and read instead of making this blunder of a post

"After the Soviet Union intervened and occupied Afghanistan in 1979, Islamic mujahideen fighters engaged in war with those Soviet forces.

Pakistan's President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq feared that the Soviets were planning to invade also Balochistan, Pakistan, so he sent Akhtar Abdur Rahman to Saudi Arabia to garner support for the Afghan resistance against Soviet occupation forces. A while later, the U.S. CIA and Saudi Arabic General Intelligence Directorate (GID) funneled funding and equipment through the PakistanI Inter-Service Intelligence Agency (ISI) to the Afghan mujahideen.

About 90,000 Afghans, including Mohammed Omar, were trained by Pakistan's ISI during the 1980s. The British Professor Carole Hillenbrand concluded that the Taliban have arisen from those US-Saudi-Pakistan-supported mujahideen"

^see that name highlighted in red up there...keep that fresh in ur mind along with the fact that "Mujahideen" was a coalition of various different militant factions with various different warlords...
...now continue reading below

"After the fall of the Soviet-backed regime of Mohammad Najibullah in 1992, many Afghan political parties, but not Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-e Islami, Hizb-e Wahdat, and Ittihad-i Islami, in April agreed on a peace and power-sharing agreement, the Peshawar Accord, which created the Islamic State of Afghanistan and appointed an interim government for a transitional period; but that Islamic State and its government were paralyzed right from the start, due to rivalling groups contending for total power over Kabul and Afghanistan."

^after these various factions collectively called "Mujahideen" fought off the Soviet Union and were able to form their own government...infighting started and a power struggle ensued...also known as Afghan Civil War...
...read below

"From 1996 to 2001, the Taliban held power over roughly three quarters of Afghanistan, and enforced there a strict interpretation of Sharia, or Islamic law. The Taliban emerged in 1994 as one of the prominent factions in the Afghan Civil War and largely consisted of students (talib) from the Pashtun areas of eastern and southern Afghanistan who had been educated in traditional Islamic schools, and fought during the Soviet–Afghan War. Under the leadership of Mohammed Omar, the movement spread throughout most of Afghanistan, sequestering power from the Mujahideen warlords."

Here is the link in case u want to verify urself the information.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

So what were u saying about that the Taliban were never part of the Mujahideen during the soviet period?

Hopefully after reading that above u now understand the following key points...
- The West/KSA/Pakistan together created the Mujahideen to fight off Soviet Union
- Mujahideen were a group of various different factions(militant groups under various warlords)
- Once the Soviet Union was defeated, the Mujahideen(group of factions) tried to form a united government.
- The united government fell apart and a power struggle between the various factions of Mujahideen started.
- From that power struggle one faction(of previously Mujahideen) emerged dominant/victorious, which became known as the Taliban

The Taliban was created 3-4 years later.
The US did not provide any support during the critical period from its creation 1994, to 1996, when Kabul was overrun. Pakistan did, and when the Mujahedin under Massoud defeated them, Pakistan stepped up its support until they could overwhelm the Mujahedin. After the victory was obvious, some former Mujahedin allied themselves with the Taliban.

US wasn't involved in the period after the Soviet Union was defeated bcuz the US goal had been met. The presence of Soviet Union in Afghanistan was a concern to both US/Pak bcuz for Pak it was right next door and for US...well US opposed Soviet Union...so the goals of both countries aligned and hence they together created the Mujahideen.

Once the Soviet Union was defeated the US didn't need to do anything further but for Pakistan it was still "in our backyard". There was a mess leftover...a vacuum. Pakistan didn't want all these militant factions left unchecked right next door(a rogue military of sorts) nor did they want a non Pakistan friendly government forming in Afghanistan bcuz that would be a disaster for Pakistan(India on one front and a possibly hostile Afghanistan on the other)
So logically at first Pakistan tried to help Mujahideen create a united government in Afghanistan...this didn't work
...once the infighting did start...naturally the next step was to back the faction that was most likely to win...to ensure a peaceful western front.

To claim that the US created the Taliban is therefore dishonest.

As demonstrated above it is not dishonest. Taliban were part of the Mujahideen, which were together created by US/Pakistan/KSA.

If u mean to say that US didn't provide support to the Taliban after Soviet Union was defeated and left Afghanistan then u would be correct...but idk why that would be necessary bcuz I didn't make any claim on the contrary.

In short these militant groups(including Taliban were created together by US/KSA/Pak)...then US pulled out after its goals were achieved and Pakistan continued bcuz Pakistan's goals had not yet been achieved.

I brough up the fact that the Taliban is the baby carefully nurtured by Pakistan,
because it is important background information.

Right...but important how? R u implying that bcuz Pakistan nurtured/supported Taliban...then somehow this means that they are indeed playing a double game?

Like they are fighting the very group they created...but bcuz they created them so they are also supporting them?

By that reasoning...US also created them...and US is now also fighting them...so if we apply ur reasoning...US is also playing a double game?

Isn't it convenient how all these strawman arguments are used to demonize Pakistan but somehow the same logic/reasoning/thought never applies to the US?

After 9/11 Bush told the world to choose sides. Pakistan did not dare to oppose the US then.

US is a superpower...Pakistan is not...plain and simple

Pakistanis constantly declare themselves as enemies of the West.
It is no surprise that US top brass believes them

Right...any person anywhere can claim anything...what's ur point? It is the official position of a country that matters. So that would be a dumb thing to do if the US top brass actually uses that approach, which I highly doubt they do.

Also I see that u conveniently ignored answering the part in my last post about the US government differentiating between the Taliban...I remember u took an issue with Pakistanis on this forum doing that same thing...care to answer?