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Cope India 2005

EagleEyes

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EDITORIAL: Cope India 2005 — lessons for us

At Cope India 2005, the recently held two-week India-US joint air exercise, Indian pilots flying the Sukhoi-30 MKIs are reported to have outperformed the United States F-16s. Indian pilots not only came out the winners in various visible-range encounters, dogfights as they are called, but also responded to target assignments by AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) much faster than the US pilots.

One USAF (United States Air Force) controller working aboard an AWACS plane was quoted by the media as saying that “he was impressed by the speed in which Indian pilots responded to target assignments given them by AWACS”. The AWACS were being operated by the Americans but were “acting as a neutral party, feeding target assignments to both Indian and American pilots during the exercise”. Given that the Indian pilots were using the American AWACS capability for the first time, this must be billed as impressive performance.

Jasjit Singh, a former air commodore and currently director of the Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi told a US newspaper that first reported the outcome of Cope India 2005: “Since the Cold War, there has been the general assumption that India is a Third World country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn’t perform well. That myth has been broken.” Another Indian air force officer, a former vice chief of air staff, Air Marshal Vinod Patney said that the Sukhoi is a better plane than the F-16. “But we’re not talking about a single aircraft. We’re talking about the overall infrastructure, the command and control systems, the radar on the ground and in the air, the technical crew on the ground, and how do you maximise that infrastructure. This is where the learning curve takes place.”

This report should definitely interest Pakistan, especially the Pakistan Air Force whose primary threat so far comes from the IAF. There are two important aspects of the outcome of the US-India joint air war-game: the Indian pilots outperformed the US pilots and the exercises gave them the opportunity to see the performance of American technology in war conditions. The latter factor, it should be clear to us, would be of great importance to the IAF in case of a conflict with Pakistan with the latter relying heavily on US technology as its mainstay.

As for the performance of Indian pilots, one US officer said that the Indians planned the war game in such a way as to deny the American pilots their advanced BVR (beyond visual range) capabilities. That may be so, but it is still important to flag that the Indians performed better in dogfights. One US pilot conceded that Su-30 MKI is a much more manoeuvrable machine and that makes a difference. This is important information for Pakistan, which is relying mainly on F-16s. But even more interesting, and perhaps worrisome for Pakistan, is the fact that in an earlier joint exercise, Indian pilots were reported to have done well even with MiG 21 Fishbeds and MiG 27 Floggers, presumably much lesser in capability vis-à-vis both Su-30 MKIs and F-16s and F15s.

Writing of the recent exercise, one US newspaper wrote: “If it turns out the US Air Force did, in fact, get their clocks cleaned, it will have been the second time. In Cope India 2004, an air combat exercise that took place near the Indian city of Gwalior, US F-15s were eliminated in multiple exercises against Indian late-model MiG 21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG 27 Floggers.”

Are there lessons in these outcomes for Pakistan? Quite a few. First, the IAF is not merely enhancing its technological capability but also focusing on the training of its human resource. In other words, it is trying to create a lethal combination. Second, it is learning about US equipment and platforms, presumably taking home the lessons and incorporating them in its training as well as making use of them in equipment acquisition. Third, the IAF is learning to make full use of AWACS system, which is a force-multiplier system. Fourth, as Air Marshal Patney said correctly, the winning combination comes with a holistic approach to combat and involves, in the case of air combat, the entire infrastructure, from the ground staff to the men flying the machines. Finally, this means the PAF is facing an adversary quick on the uptake and getting first-rate opportunities to learn.

How do we respond?

First the obvious: we need to take the same holistic approach. We do not know if we have institutions like Air Power Studies in Pakistan. The air force definitely looks into professional issues but we also need to have outside-the-air-force input. Two, we need to study reports of the performance of various platforms carefully for reasons of acquisitions. Three, since we will always have the problem of asymmetry in quantitative terms, there is even more reason for us to focus on quality both for the equipment and the human resource. The PAF pilots have a great reputation but we cannot rest on our laurels. Four, critics who are not convinced that PAF needs expensive aircraft need to revisit the issue in light of the constantly improving capabilities of IAF. They also need to realise that air power is also essential for ground-support missions. Five, we also need to appreciate the force-multiplier effect an early warning system has on the performance of an air force – even ground forces – and which the critics do not seem to realise. Finally, it is absurd to argue that we do not need advanced military systems because there is no threat now. Threat perception is a function of other states’ capabilities, not their intentions. Moreover, to say that with nuclear capability we do not need to boost our conventional capability ignores two important factors, one empirical, the other conceptual: with every increase in expenditure on nuclear forces, nuclear-weapon states have seen a corresponding increase in expenditure in conventional capability; nuclear capability requires that states should increase the nuclear threshold to avoid escalation to the nuclear level. That is possible only by enhancing the conventional capability.

Pakistan not only needs a strong air force, it also requires a strong navy. It is time that we looked at the two neglected forces. *

Source: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...2-12-2005_pg3_1
 
F-16 outperformed by Russian aircraft

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Pakistan may like to think twice about acquiring F-16s following reports that in the recently concluded joint US-Indian air force exercises, the much-vaunted aircraft did not come out the winner in its “encounters” with Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs. (Now they are realizing were they smoking?)

The exercises had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides, according to a report on Monday in the Christian Science Monitor, and observers say that in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out the winners. “Since the cold war, there has been the general assumption that India is a third-world country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn’t perform well,” says Jasjit Singh, director of the Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. “That myth has been blown out by the results” of these air exercises.

The Monitor report filed from New Delhi says, “But there are some signs that America’s premier fighter jet, the F-16 Fighting Falcon, is losing ground to the growing sophistication of Russian-made fighter planes, and that the US should be more wary about presuming global air superiority - the linchpin of its military might. ‘The Sukhoi is a ... better plane than the F-16,’ says Vinod Patney, a retired Indian Air Force marshal, and former vice chief of air staff. ‘But we’re not talking about a single aircraft. We’re talking about the overall infrastructure, the command and control systems, the radar on the ground and in the air, the technical crew on the ground, and how do you maximise that infrastructure. This is where the learning curve takes place.’”

While Indian bloggers are generally ecstatic about the performance of the Indian pilots against the American aircraft, an American pilot who participated in the exercise expressed disgust over triumphant Indian comments, pointing out that the point of the exercise was to learn and “for two weeks of training, both sides got more out of their training than they probably would in two months”.

The Monitor report quotes military experts who say that the joint exercises occurred at a time when America’s fighter jet prowess is slipping. Since the US victories in the first Gulf War, a war dependent largely on air power, the Russians and French have improved the aviation electronics or avionics and weapons capabilities of their Sukhoi and Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft. These improvements have given countries like India, which use the Sukhois and Mirages, a rough parity with US fighter planes like the F-16 and F-15C. China, too, now has 400 late-model Sukhois.

The report notes that “while the Indian Air Force designed the exercises to India’s advantage - forcing pilots to fight ‘within visual range’ rather than using America’s highly advanced ‘beyond visual range’ sensing equipment - both observers and participants admit that Indian aircraft and personnel performed much better than expected”. The Su-30 MKI “is an amazing jet that has a lot of manoeuvrability,” Capt Martin Mentch told an Air Force publication, AFPN. Manoeuvrability is key for missions of visual air combat. If it turns out the US Air Force did, in fact, “get their clocks cleaned,” it will have been the second time. In Cope India 2004, an air combat exercise that took place near the Indian city of Gwalior, US F-15s were eliminated in multiple exercises against Indian late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers. In the 2005 exercises in Kalaikundi air base near Calcutta, Americans were “most impressed” by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs.

Maj Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing’s chief of air-to-air tactics and a participant in Cope India 2004, admitted that the US Air Force underestimated the Indians. “The outcome of the (2004) exercise boils down to (the fact that) they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected,” he told Aviation Week last year. “They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force. That was silly.”
(Like they say NEVER UNDERESTIMATE)

One USAF controller working aboard an AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) plane told reporters at Kalaikundi Air Base that he was impressed by the speed in which Indian pilots responded to target assignments given to them by AWACS. The AWACS, while operated by Americans, was acting as a neutral party, feeding target assignments to both Indian and American pilots during the exercise. In most cases, the Indians responded to target assignments faster than the American pilots did – “a surprising fact, given that this was the first time Indian pilots had used the American AWACS capability”.

Source: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...-11-2005_pg7_37
 
1.st As usual USAF sended it's newbie pilots while IAF had experets. And there were some encounters while the F-16 actully out mounvered MKI. But the sad thing ( for us) is that IAF won and the quote that said that " F-16 even today is the best fighter" has been broken. For more details just go to f-16.net.

Now the thing is that what exectly do we need instead of the vipers. We need something so good that the indians won't be abe to answer back.

On the other side. USAF might've done this to prove that there are "better" airforces then UASF and that they need the F/A-22 asap and in thousands not hunderds. But whatever the case is, PAF should infact go for something better then F-16. Althought it's sad to see that a wonder full fighter like F-16 is'nt the best any more.
 
Thunder,

That is the problem for us all, that we try to look for excuses rather than build up our own air force stronger with quality. USAF did that because of funds is another thing, but indeed you have to admit that IAF has now one of the best pilots.

Its not like that anymore that we will win in the war because of our awesome training, man come on get real, you can't win against Su-30MKI and the latest 4th generation aircrafts with F-16s, let alone these F-7s copies of Mig-21s.

Its enough, PAF should think more openly, and the people in Pakistan(mostly) have a proud for its air force should open their minds if it is capable enough that it was 30 years ago? They dont give a shit. When i was in Pakistan same thing occurred i always wanted to be a PAF pilot and always had a natural passion for PAF, and thought that F-16 was one might plane, until i read and research about it on the Internet, here i was surprised!

Never underestimate them, i know (personally) PAF has good plans, favors what, and needs what, but its the damn government who doesn't want to approve the deal saying that we dont need it, cause we have a magical nuclear weapon in the air which will defend us all the time.!

Regards,
Ahsan F.

Originally posted by Thunder@Dec 1 2005, 10:09 PM
1.st As usual USAF sended it's newbie pilots while IAF had experets. And there were some encounters while the F-16 actully out mounvered MKI. But the sad thing ( for us) is that IAF won and the quote that said that " F-16 even today is the best fighter" has been broken. For more details just go to f-16.net.

Now the thing is that what exectly do we need instead of the vipers. We need something so good  that the indians won't be abe to answer back.

On the other side. USAF might've done this to prove that there are "better" airforces then UASF and that they need the F/A-22 asap and in thousands not hunderds. But whatever the case is, PAF should infact go for something better then F-16.  Althought it's sad to see that a wonder full fighter like F-16 is'nt the best any more. 
[post=4201]Quoted post[/post]​
 
In a real conflict between India and U.S., the u.s. would use tomahawk crusie missiles and its stealth bombers to extensively degrade India's airforce on the ground and then would utilise its Aircrafts in dogfights. A true conflict will never pan out quite like this wargame would lead us to believe.
 
Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 3 2005, 05:35 AM
In a real conflict between India and U.S., the u.s. would use tomahawk crusie missiles and its stealth bombers to extensively degrade India's airforce on the ground and then would utilise its Aircrafts in dogfights. A true conflict will never pan out quite like this wargame would lead us to believe.
[post=4239]Quoted post[/post]​

Exectly, and this should also answer webbys question too. In a war PAF fighting IAF are not that high. There will be missiles from both sides, there will be army from both sides, those armies are equiped with okay kinda equipment. In a real war you will see many MKIs and F-16s being shot down by anti-aircraft guns, there are a thousand ways of shooting down a plane. I asure you that in a real war there will be many F-7s that would take down MKIs while there would be many Mig-21s that would take down F-16s.

The goverment know this and they also know that PAF needs new toys apart from F-16s, but the reason no body give a !@@#$ is because again, you gotta look at the big pic. A air force will not always fight the other air force, there will be political, budget etc playing a major part.

And that's the reason pakistani goverment is'nt caring, because usa is in the region currently, ind-pak are having peace talks. In times like these you don't go around looking for expensive toys, you spend that money in your own country so in the future your country will be making those big toys. And that's what pakistan is doing, they know that a war with india won't happen for atleast 15-20 years. So why go look around for expensive things when you already know that those things will probabley be retired by the time there is war.

F-16s along with JF-17s should be enough to defend pakistan until some country or UN steps in.
 
Thunder, I just can't agree with you that Mig-21's will be able to shoot down F-16's. It is just so improbable. A skilled pilot in a sukhoi or Mig-29 might be able to but not a Mig-21.
 
Originally posted by sigatoka@Dec 3 2005, 01:26 AM
Thunder, I just can't agree with you that Mig-21's will be able to shoot down F-16's. It is just so improbable. A skilled pilot in a sukhoi or Mig-29 might be able to but not a Mig-21.
[post=4251]Quoted post[/post]​

Also add to that F-7s taking down the MKIs is also ridiculous.
 
Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 3 2005, 06:30 AM
Also add to that F-7s taking down the MKIs is also ridiculous.
[post=4253]Quoted post[/post]​

See you people are going at a paper war again. In a real war there are litterly hundreds of things which will decide the out come of a air war. What if that MKI is out of missils, it a gonner is'nt what if there is some sort of problam with the f-16 and can't handle it self propely in the air, it's a gonner is'nt it. Take pervious wars for exmpale. in 1971, A F-6 ( chinese version of mig-19) took down a mig-21, which was more "superiour" then f-6. linl


F-86 takes on a superiour fighter
Hope you get my point
 
Originally posted by Thunder@Dec 3 2005, 08:27 PM
See you people are going at a paper war again. In a real war there are litterly hundreds of things which will decide the out come of a air war. What if that MKI is out of missils, it a gonner is'nt what if there is some sort of problam with the f-16 and can't handle it self propely in the air, it's a gonner is'nt it. Take pervious wars for exmpale. in 1971, A F-6 ( chinese version of mig-19) took down a mig-21, which was more "superiour" then f-6. linl
F-86 takes on a superiour fighter
Hope you get my point 
[post=4286]Quoted post[/post]​

Even Hunters and Gnats brought down the Sabers. MiG-21 crushed the F-104 in every engagement.

Also in a war you will never find an empty Su-30 as you are saying.

For Example: -

Multiroles like Flankers and Mirages goes into formations like 4+2.

4 multiroles loaded with their mission specified weapons and 2 loaded with Air-Superiority weapon. These 2 can be either MiG-29 or Vajra's and flankers themselves.

Also there is a least possibility that a multirole like Mirage or flanker is not carrying atleast two AA missiles.

Planes like MiG-23/27 and Jaguar's are always escorted by MiG-21 BiS /29.

If any kind of formation is getting attacked then the aircrafts with mission specified weapons has to bug out and the defenders has to do the dogfight.

Also members are not taken into count the Indian AWACS (Israeli Facons) and our own Satelities.

Thanks,

Miro
 
Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 2 2005, 08:18 AM
Never underestimate them, i know (personally) PAF has good plans, favors what, and needs what, but its the damn government who doesn't want to approve the deal saying that we dont need it, cause we have a magical nuclear weapon in the air which will defend us all the time.! :ranting:

Regards,
Ahsan F.
[post=4202]Quoted post[/post]​

Nuclear weapons are not meant to fire.

They are the set knowledge of retaliation for the enemies.

Why wouldn't US and USSR didnt launched nuke attacks against each other???

Any country doing the first strike will be writing a suicide note for itself.

If the other country failed to retaliate some other country from the west will finish the job.

Miro
 
Originally posted by miroslav@Dec 3 2005, 09:44 PM
Even Hunters and Gnats brought down the Sabers. MiG-21 crushed the F-104 in every engagement.

[post=4333]Quoted post[/post]​

That's the whole danm point. Superiour fighters can be shout down by "inferior" fighters.
 
Originally posted by miroslav@Dec 3 2005, 04:46 PM
Nuclear weapons are not meant to fire.

They are the set knowledge of retaliation for the enemies.

Why wouldn't US and USSR didnt launched nuke attacks against each other???

Any country doing the first strike will be writing a suicide note for itself.

If the other country failed to retaliate some other country from the west will finish the job.

Miro
[post=4334]Quoted post[/post]​

Not in the case of Pakistan. I doubt Pakistan Army will let India win the war, nor will India let us win. So if war happens both goes down, no one remains.
 

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