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Yemen: Pakistan's right policy vs. wrong direction

FaujHistorian

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I suggests Pakistan deploy at least 3000 soldiers on Yemen KSA border to discourage any adventurism by Houthies and Qaida against our Saudi brothers.

However this should accompany by a ship load of food and medicine for Yemenies.

Pak navy should have strong presence around port of Aden to ensure that Houthies know we are there to help them move out of major cities and in return provide food and medical assistance to Yemenies.

If Houthies agree, Pakistan can ensure that air bombing is stopped soon.

If on the other hand Houthies do not agree, then Pakistan should deploy combat troops in the port of Aden and expand from there.
 
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Sometimes you do things to bring peace and stability.
Provide help beyond your own 4 walls.

Like giving up half a loaf of bread for a hungry neighbor.

Really ? yemen or GCC is your poor neighbour in need of bread. Last I checked they attacked a sovereign nation and have more advance weapons then we do.

Why should we get involved in war that has nothing to do with us ?
 
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Sometimes you do things to bring peace and stability.
Provide help beyond your own 4 walls.

Like giving up half a loaf of bread for a hungry neighbor.

Highly debatable our military involvement there will bring peace and stability

If by loaf of bread you mean stabilizing Yemen
So lets preview what is happening here in our country
*Yesterday 10 militants were killed trying to enter Mohmand Agency from Afganistan
*20 men shot dead execution style in Balochistan
*Tirah Valley still not cleared
*In North Waziristan after months of operation we haven't cleared Datakhel let alone move into Shawal Valley
*Karachi...need i remind you !
*Iran firing mortars after the attack on their border guards
*Hindu fanatic governing Delhi

So the loaf of bread isn't near big enough to be distributed among all members of the household let alone be given to a hungry stranger.....Yemen is not in our neighborhood !
 
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Sometimes you do things to bring peace and stability.
Provide help beyond your own 4 walls.

Like giving up half a loaf of bread for a hungry neighbor.
Then we should begin with our own country first.

For God's sake we're only just recovering from the Afghan war, albeit steadily. We don't need to involve ourselves in other conflicts, unless all Muslim countries make a joint effort/contribution towards a peacekeeping force for deployment of exactly that purpose not only in Yemen but also Syria, Iraq, Libya, etc... only then should we join, otherwise such an operation is not going to result in much.
 
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These are very sane suggestions. Judging by what you've said, it seems you and I are on the same page about what we'd like to achieve.

Peace above all, with as little of a cost as possible. And at the same time maintain relations with all, and help build relations if the time should come with all parties and help them build relations with each other.

I've seen the wrong motivation in this debate too, the wrong pro-interventionist motivation is purely to uphold relations, to please the GCC and to act upon understated threats, or to involve ourselves simply because of us seem to have weird complexes when it comes to Arabs. The wrong motivation for staying out as much as possible, is the anti-GCC approach, most of our liberals, yours truly included might not see some aspects of our affairs with these countries as too good a thing. The idea that we should chose between Iran and the Saudis is also false.

Now, the proper motivation in my mind is as stated above; peace, easy and cheap, painless, while still maintaining if not improving relations.

I think it would not be a bad or unreasonable thing to send troops to Saudi territory, away from any fighting, no fighting role, no aid to the war effort besides 'peacekeeping', symbolic placement of troops, maintaining some sort of idea of security of the Saudi state without getting ourselves involved in the war effort. Not even such simple a thing as logistical support.

When considering the Pak army's role in KSA, and their armed forces, many of our men current and former have been involved in training there among other roles, so a symbolic deployment of a small force should not be looked at with as much hostility.

However, I would like to see Pakistan maintain the image of neutrality, with this we should be looking for what little ties we have with Iran and their affiliates to help come to a peaceful revolution. And with troop deployment and over stated commitment to the Saudis might compromise any such position Pakistan may be willing to pursue.

Now here I have to start dealing with ground realities of the war itself, whether or not we extend such symbolic gestures.

The GCC will be fighting an insurgency in foreign land, they have the money for it and the capacity in terms of fuel. However, what they do not have is the numbers for any large scale deployment, I do not see effective deployment of numbers following the bombing even with combined armies of those involved. These armies are also not mature in this field, they have not fought much at all, and they certainly have not seen anything like combating an insurgency which is a different beast. The Houthis are not to be underestimated, their numbers are very convincing.

The numbers they can field are not convincing for their role. What have we in Pakistan learnt for the war here, and the war just next to us? To combat an insurgency like this you need to have enough combat troops for combat roles deployed to maintain a very healthy ratio for the size of the area they are tasked to deal with, and a very healthy ratio for the size of the foe they are tasked to take on. I may add here, that the hard part of this not winning territory, and pushing them back a few months from now, no that's easy. Holding, and making a lasting presence is an impossible task, I can say with confidence that IF the Houthis have real local support, IF they are playing the sectarian game, and if the Saudis play that game too... If that happens, expect years of war and years of deployment. Again conditions along with casualties in general that I do not believe the GCC militarises can sustain.

If the war takes a sectarian turn, which it undeniably did, long, long ago. This was will be far uglier, Iraq should be a fine example. And under this condition, I do not see even our intervention or even US intervention any good, this will make the war unwinnable.

With that in mind, I am dead-set against any combat roles inside Yemen for our boys, not even active support.

I agree with the rest, efforts to cool the situation and look after humanitarian interests is both right and within our interests.

Whats in it for us???

We can't pretend relations with these countries is not important to us. It is important to us, and some degree of involvement, even if it's as neutral as possible, with the overall aim of peace, acceptable and agreeable for most if not all, is not a bad way to go.

This is however, me being optimistic. The chances of finding peaceful resolutions of this sort in the Middle East are not likely at all.
 
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Pakistan needs to drift away from the Arabian world... The whole region is engulfed in wars, plus Pakistan already has Afghanistan to worry about..

Just nod and keep on carrying out development work in Pakistan... Ignore the Arabs
 
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Pakistan needs to drift away from the Arabian world... The whole region is engulfed in wars, plus Pakistan already has Afghanistan to worry about..

Just nod and keep on carrying out development work in Pakistan... Ignore the Arabs

We need to separate our civil society from Arab influence and their culture, a Pakistani interpretation of our own religion will do us fine too. Pakistani identity also needs to be strengthened, this will help us overcome foreign extremist schools of thought that fuel insurgency and unrest, it will help us overcome sectarian hell that plagues the Middle East, which in my opinion is the Middle East's biggest curse, second biggest curse is their oil. If unity and peace can't be achieved elsewhere, Pakistan at least needs a vibrant, stable and peaceful atmosphere, unity and a strong Pakistani identity is of utmost importance.

But the Arab nations are vital to Pakistan, and almost always will be, much of our future planning for development, and economic progress involves them in many ways. Good state relations, trade and co-operation is a must.

Make the distinction here... between economic, and state level relations and adopting their cultural and societal norms.
 
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I suggests Pakistan deploy at least 3000 soldiers on Yemen KSA border to discourage any adventurism by Houthies and Qaida against our Saudi brothers.

However this should accompany by a ship load of food and medicine for Yemenies.
Any military deployment should only be limited to Mecca and Medina. Stationing troops on the border means you are directly confronting the Houthi's. Just yesterday three soldiers were killed in a mortar attack. What will happen if these soldiers happened to be Pakistanis? Will you tell their families that they are "shaheed" in the cause of Al-Sauds?

Secondly, stationing troops on the border is against "neutrality" and can free up KSA soldiers to move to offensive roles.

If on the other hand Houthies do not agree, then Pakistan should deploy combat troops in the port of Aden and expand from there.
That is completely against neutrality vote our parliament decided on.
 
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@Jungibaaz your detailed explanation is spot on. Thank you for making that effort. I also fully agree with your view of a Pakistani identity and that it should be strengthened so as to not be influenced by foreign sectarian and political issues

However,
a Pakistani brand of our own religion will do us fine too.
I disagree with this - do we need yet another religio-political entity in this world? Don't we already have enough?

I believe Pakistani identity can be strengthened without it revolving around religion - it should be one tolerant of other religions, sects and opinions. Ultimately It'd be the best if all Muslims can just accept that unity doesn't require uniformity and that tolerating a disagreement for the sake of unity is the best course of action.

I don't mean secularism - I mean keeping Islam in mind and applying its many positive aspects to our national philosophy, while at the same time reducing sectarian divisions and not excluding the non-Muslims. That, I believe, is the closest we should get to forming a 'brand' of religion. If that is ever done, it could eventually influence other Muslim nations and improve their conditions (this wouldn't happen if we try to disassociate ourselves from them, which will be a side-effect of developing our own sect or adopting secularism).

We should apply this in Pakistan - ''Unity does not require uniformity. Tolerate (religious,ideological or political) disagreements for the sake of this unity. Don't give up your own faith, but know that the advocacy of unity is a part of that faith.'' This is also very close to the founder's view of ''Unity, Faith, Discipline''.

Going a bit closer to the topic, Pakistani forces are already supposed to be in Saudi Arabia, Troops already in Saudi Arabia, says minister - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
According to that, they will not set foot in Yemen but provide support and security (symbolic, at least) within Saudi borders.
 
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@Jungibaaz your detailed explanation is spot on. Thank you for making that effort. I also fully agree with your view of a Pakistani identity and that it should be strengthened so as to not be influenced by foreign sectarian and political issues

However,

I disagree with this - do we need yet another religio-political entity in this world? Don't we already have enough?

I believe Pakistani identity can be strengthened without it revolving around religion - it should be one tolerant of other religions, sects and opinions. Ultimately It'd be the best if all Muslims can just accept that unity doesn't require uniformity and that tolerating a disagreement for the sake of unity is the best course of action.

I don't mean secularism - I mean keeping Islam in mind and applying its many positive aspects to our national philosophy, while at the same time reducing sectarian divisions and not excluding the non-Muslims. That, I believe, is the closest we should get to forming a 'brand' of religion. If that is ever done, it could eventually influence other Muslim nations and improve their conditions (this wouldn't happen if we try to disassociate ourselves from them, which will be a side-effect of developing our own sect or adopting secularism).

We should apply this in Pakistan - ''Unity does not require uniformity. Tolerate (religious,ideological or political) disagreements for the sake of this unity. Don't give up your own faith, but know that the advocacy of unity is a part of that faith.'' This is also very close to the founder's view of ''Unity, Faith, Discipline''.

Thanks. Though I should clarify. I am a slightly secular individual, I have not phrased that part correctly and might edit it.

What I meant by it, the religion taught in our schools, on our tv screens, etc should moderate and homegrown interpretations. These ideas fit under my much broader view that all education in Pakistan should be monitored and regulated, and only one standard national curriculum finalized.

The idea here is to eliminate foreign brands and interpretations of the religion the vast, vast majority of us believe in and our children will be born in to.

The idea is not to have Pakistan revolve around religion at all, it is exactly as you've described it. My phrasing was incorrect.
 
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Thanks. Though I should clarify. I am a slightly secular individual, I have not phrased that part correctly and might edit it.

What I meant by it, the religion taught in our schools, on our tv screens, etc should moderate and homegrown interpretations. These ideas fit under my much broader view that all education in Pakistan should be monitored and regulated, and only one standard national curriculum finalized.

The idea here is to eliminate foreign brands and interpretations of the religion the vast, vast majority of us believe in and our children will be born in to.

The idea is not to have Pakistan revolve around religion at all, it is exactly as you've described it. My phrasing was incorrect.
I understand, thanks for the clarification.
We don't need to completely eliminate foreign interpretations per se, all we need to do is make sure they don't reach the level of fanaticism, like some already have.

I also agree with the idea of a national curriculum, and this reminds me of something I discussed in another thread.

There, I basically said that since we can't suddenly implement a national curriculum;

Firstly, a set of basic points should be developed and every single institution in the country, including madaris, should be legally required to teach their students those points (some basics of Maths, Sciences, Urdu, History and Islamiat etc).

The institutions will then be tested and those who don't teach their students those basics would face governmental action. (similar to what governmental organizations like OFSTED do in the West.)

Now, we can include the national identity concept in these essential points, along with a moderate form of Islam.

Of course, I don't expect our government to be so efficient as to actually enforce all that, but simply creating a framework would lay the foundations for future development and eventually, a standardized national curriculum like you described.
 
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I suggests Pakistan deploy at least 3000 soldiers on Yemen KSA border to discourage any adventurism by Houthies and Qaida against our Saudi brothers.

However this should accompany by a ship load of food and medicine for Yemenies.

Pak navy should have strong presence around port of Aden to ensure that Houthies know we are there to help them move out of major cities and in return provide food and medical assistance to Yemenies.

If Houthies agree, Pakistan can ensure that air bombing is stopped soon.

If on the other hand Houthies do not agree, then Pakistan should deploy combat troops in the port of Aden and expand from there.

There's absolutely no need for Pakistan to engage in a yet another conflict militarily. Period.
Be it Saudi's or Iran's. Doesn't matter. Pakistan has already committed more than it should have. You do realize Pakistan UNCONDITIONALLY pledged to protect Saudi's territorial integrity. Now given Saudi's sponsorship for Global Terrorism and plenty other misadventures, wouldn't ya say Pakistan's committing a bit too much? If I were at the helm of affairs of Pakistan, though I too would commit to Saudi's territorial integrity but my commitment wouldn't be unconditional.

Besides, for Pakistan to just engage in Yemen conflict, it might have to leave it's eastern border vulnerable given the number of forces engaged on western border. And it's altogether a different story how successful would be Pakistan's involvement in Yemen. I'll leave it at that since most might not wanna know further.
 
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I understand, thanks for the clarification.
We don't need to completely eliminate foreign interpretations per se, all we need to do is make sure they don't reach the level of fanaticism, like some already have.

I also agree with the idea of a national curriculum, and this reminds me of something I discussed in another thread.

There, I basically said that since we can't suddenly implement a national curriculum;

Firstly, a set of basic points should be developed and every single institution in the country, including madaris, should be legally required to teach their students those points (some basics of Maths, Sciences, Urdu, History and Islamiat etc).

The institutions will then be tested and those who don't teach their students those basics would face governmental action. (similar to what governmental organizations like OFSTED do in the West.)

Now, we can include the national identity concept in these essential points, along with a moderate form of Islam.

Of course, I don't expect our government to be so efficient as to actually enforce all that, but simply creating a framework would lay the foundations for future development and eventually, a standardized national curriculum like you described.

Well said, in both posts.
I've often said exactly the same thing with the British OFSTED model in mind, and the general problems with the Pakistani system, lack of system rather.
 
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