Why waning powers meddle in Asian affairs

[jhungary]

I don't believe it will be the end of the world, I think America's decision makers in Washington would rather lose a few cities to North Korean nukes rather than losing all of America and their own families too.

And clearly, China's leaders don't believe it either. That's why we will still uphold our mutual defence treaty with North Korea in the event of an American first attack, which is China's official position on the matter.

Donald Un and Fat Kim are made for each other. If they want to nuke each other to Hell, who can convince them otherwise?

lol, you believe China will launch nuke when her citizens is killed by a nuclear blast from the US, but you refused to believe US will launch its nuclear arsenal when North Korea launch nuke against the US?? Strange, LOL, but okay, if this is what you believe, who am I to say otherwise.

LOL.

And actually, Chinese position in North Korea issue is a clear demonstration that China wanted to do something about it, not like what you said "Totally supporting North Korea" there are numerous time China had already said they will not be in North Korean help and Chinese company themselves have talked about tightening the noose around North Korea.

In fact, China is probably behind South Korea and Japan as the third country do not want to see North Korea goes nuclear, because that mean that would be the ultimate blackmail Kim can do with China. Kim will not go blackmail the US or UN for anything they want (Or rather US/UN would ignore what they want) but they will use this to blackmail China to give into their own demand or else they are gonna nuke the US, and everyone dies.

Again, you can think US will just sit still when someone is nuking US city, well, then beware on what you wish for, I can tell you what I know both as a soldier and a low level decision maker with appropriate clearance, US will retaliate in kind if nuked by anyone. And nuking US = end of the world, it's that simple. Again, believe it or not is up to you.

Seems you misunderstand. I'm not happy about global nuclear proliferation. In fact, it concerns me very much. I'm disappointed that belligerent US policy has precipitated this crisis, by teaching all US adversaries that one can only have any semblance of security when one has nuclear weapons to keep US forces at bay.

On the other hand, I am aware of what you said, but I am merely saying the situation China allowed North Korea to develop is Chinese own fault, should it keep NK on a closer watch and not give in to demand when they wanted, Japan and South Korea wanted Nuclear Weapon long ago, US say no, and the US go the extra mile to make sure Japan and SK does not goes nuclear, I can't see or say China is doing the same to NK, basically, you save their arse, and you left them be, which now they become Nuclearized, and I don't know what Chinese government feel about it, but if you ask me to move to Liaoning, I would probably say screw you.

The dog is yours, you have the ultimate say which treats you want to give him, and which smacking you want to dish out to get him/her inline, but China do nothing. And now, I don't think there are anything China can do. And While the South Korean and Japan will be pull further closer to the US, and ask for more cooperation and more advance weapon or even nuclear weapon, and who to blame leading to this situation? None other than the Chinese.

 

[ito]

This is just the beginning. Hostilities are going to increase further as every major country in this region wants to establish their sphere of influence especially China, US, India and Japan.

 

[jhungary]

What else is new from the Chinese camp ?

We are not talking about a pissing contest on who got the biggest ship or the fastest jet. This is about a troublemaker that is literally right on China's doorstep and he is advocating China do nothing based upon a facade of 'non-intervention' policy that the Chinese government itself does not keep. It really is amazing that this guy cannot see the reality that if the US militarily intervene in NKR, his China will be dragged into the mix whether he likes it or not. He blamed US for NKR's nuclear weapons program because we are busy in the ME. What kind of warped thinking is that ?

lol, the reason why US don't go around and intervene the North Korea is because of the Chinese, on the one hand, China sitting on a defence pact with North Korea and will fight with the US if US Intervene, and on the other hand, it's quite amazing to see these people keep blaming the US for not intervene into the situation, what do they want the US to do? Fight China because of North Korea, how dumb is this idea to begin with? LOL

China is the master of North Korea, if they don't care about how deep this situation goes, who are we to say otherwise, the best we all can do is to keep selling military equipment to Japan and South Korea to balance the situation.

The Chinese government shortsightness is the one to blame on this issue, they think they can control North Korea forever, and think they can stop NK from doing this anytime they wanted, now, the 2 closest allies with China have both been executed, and China left with no card left, and they blame the US intervene on ME for this fiasco? That's new. Well, next time if I crash my car on a bridge, can I blame the bridge for not doing enough to make me crash??

 

[Raphael]

On the other hand, I am aware of what you said, but I am merely saying the situation China allowed North Korea to develop is Chinese own fault, should it keep NK on a closer watch and not give in to demand when they wanted, Japan and South Korea wanted Nuclear Weapon long ago, US say no, and the US go the extra mile to make sure Japan and SK does not goes nuclear, I can't see or say China is doing the same to NK, basically, you save their arse, and you left them be, which now they become Nuclearized, and I don't know what Chinese government feel about it, but if you ask me to move to Liaoning, I would probably say screw you.

The dog is yours, you have the ultimate say which treats you want to give him, and which smacking you want to dish out to get him/her inline, but China do nothing. And now, I don't think there are anything China can do. And While the South Korean and Japan will be pull further closer to the US, and ask for more cooperation and more advance weapon or even nuclear weapon, and who to blame leading to this situation? None other than the Chinese.

There is no parallel between China-NK and US-SK/JP. S. Korea and Japan are effectively colonies and the US has complete control over their foreign policy. In contrast, N. Korea is a sovereign state and China cannot coerce its policies. You are projecting US imperialist privileges onto China when in reality, we are not an empire and we don't have imperial sway over other sovereign states.

 

[jhungary]

There is no parallel between China-NK and US-SK/JP. S. Korea and Japan are effectively colonies and the US has complete control over their foreign policy. In contrast, N. Korea is a sovereign state and China cannot coerce its policies. You are projecting US imperialist privileges onto China when in reality, we are not an empire and we don't have imperial sway over other sovereign states.

You may not see or understand, the moment China intervene on behalf of North Korea, that is the same moment North Korea became a protectorate of China, China support the government, both politically and militarily of North Korea, that is the same definition of colonisation which is a country depends on your help to survive.

You may not want to call this Colonialization, but that is what it is, North Korea from then on is no more a sovereign state as much as South Korea and Japan, just because China did not have troop in North Korea does not mean the Chinese is not colonising North Korea. The UK also did not have troop in Hong Kong prior to WW2 (Yes, it wasn't the British Troop that fought the Japanese during WW2 in Hong Kong) does that mean Hong Kong was not a former UK colony before WW2?

China can and did Coerce North Korean Policy, the implementation of Communism is for one, and the following of Chinese Foreign Policy and even the adaptation of North Korean Armed Force into Chinese military is another such collaboration. Just because you did not call it imperialism and colonisation, that does not mean it wasn't.

 

[Raphael]

You may not see or understand, the moment China intervene on behalf of North Korea, that is the same moment North Korea became a protectorate of China, China support the government, both politically and militarily of North Korea, that is the same definition of colonisation which is a country depends on your help to survive.

You may not want to call this Colonialization, but that is what it is, North Korea from then on is no more a sovereign state as much as South Korea and Japan, just because China did not have troop in North Korea does not mean the Chinese is not colonising North Korea. The UK also did not have troop in Hong Kong prior to WW2 (Yes, it wasn't the British Troop that fought the Japanese during WW2 in Hong Kong) does that mean Hong Kong was not a former UK colony before WW2?

China can and did Coerce North Korean Policy, the implementation of Communism is for one, and the following of Chinese Foreign Policy and even the adaptation of North Korean Armed Force into Chinese military is another such collaboration. Just because you did not call it imperialism and colonisation, that does not mean it wasn't.

By your absurdly inflated definition of 'colonisation', every country in the world is a colony of Saudi Arabia, because all depend on its oil. Try to be more serious.

S. Korea and Japan are colonies because they are not permitted by their colonial master to have an independent foreign policy. US troops occupy both countries to ensure this.

In contrast, N. Korea is a sovereign country and its foreign policy is its own making. They regularly defy Chinese preferences, such as the elimination of the pro-Chinese Jang Song-Thaek. They would never allow Chinese forces to be stationed there in peacetime.

And frankly, your historical understanding is very dim. Hong Kong was a British colony because that was its legal status, per the Treaty of Nanking. And the UK stationed its own Hong Kong garrison there which fought (poorly) during the Battle of Hong Kong. As for China bringing communism to North Korea, that was done by Soviet agent Kim Il-Sung.

 

[gambit]

Seems you have trouble addressing the irrefutable substance of my observation, so you have resorted to attacking my 'standing' instead. That's a textbook example of the tu quoque logical fallacy.

The reality is I don't need standing to point out the obvious truth. 1+1=2, no matter who says it. Same with US culpability for inciting nuclear proliferation in Korea and elsewhere globally.

In foreign affairs, tu quoque is the norm, you did not know that ? You got nukes, so will I. You got colonies, so will I. And so on...

The reality is that now is not the time to stand on principles but in problem solving. No one outside of this forum believes that the US is the cause of current Asian regional instability.

For decades, since the end of the Korean War, the US kept two major Asian powers from becoming nuclear weapons states. Why China cannot do the same for NKR ?

Yah...I know...I know...JPN and SKR are US colonies.

When you guys have to resort to this line of rhetorical nonsense, whatever 'standing' you have is fair game. THAT is irrefutable.

By your absurdly inflated definition of 'colonisation', every country in the world is a colony of Saudi Arabia, because all depend on its oil. Try to be more serious.

S. Korea and Japan are colonies because they are not permitted by their colonial master to have an independent foreign policy. US troops occupy both countries to ensure this.

In contrast, N. Korea is a sovereign country and its foreign policy is its own making. They regularly defy Chinese preferences, such as the elimination of the pro-Chinese Jang Song-Thaek. They would never allow Chinese forces to be stationed there in peacetime.

So are JPN and SKR. When the US had economic sanctions for Viet Nam after the war, both countries defied the US and entered VN and done business there. Canada and many European countries also defied the US.

Calling JPN and SKR as US colonies is not being serious.

China has no responsibility over North Korea, isn't America the "global policeman" who went into Iraq to stop them getting nukes? Or who sanctioned Iran to stop them getting nukes?

Now with North Korea, the USA can't do anything so they cry about China? Sorry, China's policy is non-intervention in the internal affairs of other countries, if you are looking for the "global policeman" he is missing.

Fine...Then you must allow US to correct our 'mistake'.

You cannot invoke any mutual defense treaty since you have effectively absolved your China of any NKR problems. Let US -- the global policeman and adult -- handle it.

 

[Raphael]

In foreign affairs, tu quoque is the norm, you did not know that ? You got nukes, so will I. You got colonies, so will I. And so on...

The reality is that now is not the time to stand on principles but in problem solving. No one outside of this forum believes that the US is the cause of current Asian regional instability.

For decades, since the end of the Korean War, the US kept two major Asian powers from becoming nuclear weapons states. Why China cannot do the same for NKR ?

Yah...I know...I know...JPN and SKR are US colonies.

When you guys have to resort to this line of rhetorical nonsense, whatever 'standing' you have is fair game. THAT is irrefutable.

Seems you have delusions about who you are and your role. You (and I) are not a policymaker, you don't decide 'foreign affairs', you are not in a position to do 'problem-solving'. We are only debating the blameworthiness of parties and merits of possible action on a forum. As such, you are expected to abide by the proper conventions of debate and therefore to refrain from tu quoque fallacies. My being Chinese does not detract from the force of the observation that US belligerence is responsible for pushing US adversaries to acquire nuclear weapons for their security. If you want, I can summon a friend of another nationality to repeat my words.

Yes, JP and SK are US colonies. The US has troops there to enforce its will. I appreciate that by its imperial mandate, the US forbade them from going nuclear. But because China doesn't have a parallel relationship with NK, it can't do the same.

 

[Viet]

lol, you believe China will launch nuke when her citizens is killed by a nuclear blast from the US, but you refused to believe US will launch its nuclear arsenal when North Korea launch nuke against the US?? Strange, LOL, but okay, if this is what you believe, who am I to say otherwise.

LOL.

And actually, Chinese position in North Korea issue is a clear demonstration that China wanted to do something about it, not like what you said "Totally supporting North Korea" there are numerous time China had already said they will not be in North Korean help and Chinese company themselves have talked about tightening the noose around North Korea.

In fact, China is probably behind South Korea and Japan as the third country do not want to see North Korea goes nuclear, because that mean that would be the ultimate blackmail Kim can do with China. Kim will not go blackmail the US or UN for anything they want (Or rather US/UN would ignore what they want) but they will use this to blackmail China to give into their own demand or else they are gonna nuke the US, and everyone dies.

Again, you can think US will just sit still when someone is nuking US city, well, then beware on what you wish for, I can tell you what I know both as a soldier and a low level decision maker with appropriate clearance, US will retaliate in kind if nuked by anyone. And nuking US = end of the world, it's that simple. Again, believe it or not is up to you.



On the other hand, I am aware of what you said, but I am merely saying the situation China allowed North Korea to develop is Chinese own fault, should it keep NK on a closer watch and not give in to demand when they wanted, Japan and South Korea wanted Nuclear Weapon long ago, US say no, and the US go the extra mile to make sure Japan and SK does not goes nuclear, I can't see or say China is doing the same to NK, basically, you save their arse, and you left them be, which now they become Nuclearized, and I don't know what Chinese government feel about it, but if you ask me to move to Liaoning, I would probably say screw you.

The dog is yours, you have the ultimate say which treats you want to give him, and which smacking you want to dish out to get him/her inline, but China do nothing. And now, I don't think there are anything China can do. And While the South Korean and Japan will be pull further closer to the US, and ask for more cooperation and more advance weapon or even nuclear weapon, and who to blame leading to this situation? None other than the Chinese.

Chinese live in a different universe. They believe the US won't retaliate even if N Korea launches attacks on America and her allies by conventional or nuclear means because of the fear, big mighty China would intervene.

Same logic can be seen at other delusional posters as Martian2. He never wastes a second thinking Vietnam artillery will fire if the PLA opens fire on Vietnamese positions.

Delusional beyond any medical means can help.

How comes that Chinese posters openly promote aggression against a neighbor in a international media without thinking consequences?

 

[gambit]

We are only debating the blameworthiness of parties and merits of possible action on a forum.

As such, you are expected to abide by the proper conventions of debate and therefore to refrain from tu quoque fallacies. My being Chinese does not detract from the force of the observation that US belligerence is responsible for pushing US adversaries to acquire nuclear weapons for their security. If you want, I can summon a friend of another nationality to repeat my words.

Then why do you guys so intent on casting JPN and SKR as US colonies as convenient rhetorical distractions from that debate, hm ?

You said something about the US teaching adversaries about the necessity of nuclear weapons.

India and Pakistan clandestinely became nuclear weapons states. Who taught them that need ? The US had nothing to do with their disputes.

At the end of WW II, China felt the tu quoque need to have a geopolitical buffer state when she saw the US had JPN and much of the remaining Asia. So she grabbed NKR. Now you want to blame US for your either incompetence or refusal to control your vassal state ?

No one outside of this forum believes that China cannot control NKR. If any TV talking heads says so, it is in the context of the current situation, not from history. NKR completely depends on China for economic survival, so by extension, China is NKR's master and leash holder.

The blame for the current crisis rests on China. No one else.

 

[Raphael]

Then why do you guys so intent on casting JPN and SKR as US colonies as convenient rhetorical distractions from that debate, hm ?

You said something about the US teaching adversaries about the necessity of nuclear weapons.

India and Pakistan clandestinely became nuclear weapons states. Who taught them that need ? The US had nothing to do with their disputes.

At the end of WW II, China felt the tu quoque need to have a geopolitical buffer state when she saw the US had JPN and much of the remaining Asia. So she grabbed NKR. Now you want to blame US for your either incompetence or refusal to control your vassal state ?

No one outside of this forum believes that China cannot control NKR. If any TV talking heads says so, it is in the context of the current situation, not from history. NKR completely depends on China for economic survival, so by extension, China is NKR's master and leash holder.

The blame for the current crisis rests on China. No one else.

Evidence shows JP and SK are US colonies. US troops are stationed in both countries because their mutual predecessor, the Empire of Japan, lost a war and had to submit to peace terms that provided for foreign occupation.

In contrast, evidence shows NK is a sovereign state. Every inch of NK territory is free of foreign troops.
NK does what it likes, including killing pro-Chinese statesmen like Jang Song Thaek. They might be dependent on us for trade as many other countries have embargoed them, but they would rather eat grass than cede their sovereignty.

You show too much of a US-centric perspective, viewing everything within the prism of a 'master-slave' relationship, between 'dogs' and 'leash-holders'. It totally eludes you that many relationships between sovereign states are marked by their equality and mutual respect.

As for India/Pakistan: the US demonstrated the vulnerability of non-nuclear states to US coercion and military intervention in Iraq, Libya, Syria, during the 21st century. India and Pakistan acquired their weapons during the 20th century, so of course that lesson can't apply retroactively. But every nuclear crisis in this century is US-linked. It's no coincidence that pro-nuclear Ahmadinejad became President of Iran soon after the invasion of Iraq. US belligerence pushes people across the world into the arms of strongmen who promise extraordinary commitment to national security.

 

[gambit]

Evidence shows JP and SK are US colonies. US troops are stationed in both countries...

You show too much of a US-centric perspective, viewing everything within the prism of a 'master-slave' relationship, between 'dogs' and 'leash-holders'. It totally eludes you that many relationships between sovereign states are marked by their equality and mutual respect.

Evidence says nothing of the kind. Unless the definitions of 'evidence' and 'colony' are grossly exaggerated.

We do not take resources from either countries back to the US, as how the proper context of what is a 'colony' usually means. In fact, both countries often have their own economic and trade policies that defied US expectations and put US in inferior positions. Trade imbalances, for example. Colonies do not and cannot do this.

There are many aspects on what constitutes a colony but that would be pointless to list them.

Your tactic is clear.

You cannot deny the dominant position your China has over NKR in that relationship. You cannot deny the raw power your China can exercise over NKR in order to keep NKR in check. You cannot deny the fact that NKR got away from your China because of either incompetence or refusal to control NKR.

So you have to cast JPN and SKR in as negative a light as possible to distract attention from China's failure with NKR. This has nothing to do with respect for a fellow sovereign state and you know it.

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

Where Shintoism and Bushido come from?

comparing to confucianism they were never the predominate cultural influence over Japan, maybe you watched too many samurai movies...

 

[jhungary]

By your absurdly inflated definition of 'colonisation', every country in the world is a colony of Saudi Arabia, because all depend on its oil. Try to be more serious.

So, you are saying no civilization exist before oil in 1848? Because as you said, Saudi Arabia are the world conlony and the world depends on oil and crude oil was not discovered and refine until 1848.

Mate, you do know oil is what make this world easier, but you can survive without oil and machinery.

The better example is salt, and yes, in the early ages, French colonize country because of salt, and that is how war started in Europe because without Salt, human cannot be alive, as you need 20 mg of salt intake daily, but without crude oil, life would be harder, but human kind will not go extinct just because you do not have oil

S. Korea and Japan are colonies because they are not permitted by their colonial master to have an independent foreign policy. US troops occupy both countries to ensure this.

So did North Korea in the early 60s and 70s. And to some extend 80s. Especial after the great famine. Please do tell me what is the general direction of North Korean foreign policy that have no relationship and dependence to Chinese or Russia? Except perhaps starve all its citizens to death by continue on the nuclear program?

In contrast, N. Korea is a sovereign country and its foreign policy is its own making. They regularly defy Chinese preferences, such as the elimination of the pro-Chinese Jang Song-Thaek. They would never allow Chinese forces to be stationed there in peacetime.

I am not talking about now or 10 years ago, the North Korean was not just starting its nuclear program, again please do refer to me which Foreign policy of North Korean is independent to China and Russia during the 50s to early 90s?

And frankly, your historical understanding is very dim. Hong Kong was a British colony because that was its legal status, per the Treaty of Nanking. And the UK stationed its own Hong Kong garrison there which fought (poorly) during the Battle of Hong Kong. As for China bringing communism to North Korea, that was done by Soviet agent Kim Il-Sung.

I don't know where is your historical understanding.

70% of British Garrison is Canadian and Indian, yes, British Officer serve in British Indian Army, but there were no or non-nominal present of British Army Unit in Hong Kong Before the start of the war. Because most British Unit was relocated to defend Singapore.

The only official unit of British Army engage in the Battle of Hong Kong is Royal Scots (precisely 2nd Bn Royal Scot) and 1 bn Middlesex Regiment of Foot and assorted Royal Artillery Element, all of which (beside the Royal Scot) was stationed in Singapore, and only transfer to Hong Kong at the onset of WW2.

On the other hand, C Force (the Canadian) have 3 Battalions couple with 2 Battalions of Punjab Regiment and 2 Local Volunteer defence battalion, that made up the core of Hong Kong Defence during Battle of Hong Kong.

Which in case you don't speak Military, a battalion is about 600 men, British Army unit have 2 Battalion, which is about 1200 men (half of them are reinforcement) and Canadian have 3 battalion from 3 Regiment, Princess Patricia light Infantry regiment, Canadian Light Rifle Regiment and the Winnipeg Grenadier
which number in 2000, and then with 2 battalions from 7th Rujput and 14th Punjab regiment make up the other 1200 men. Plus 2 local defence battalion, make up the core 7000 men of the 12000 strong defence force.

And no. The North Korean was not communism before the Korean War, they are militaristic and more importantly imperialist. In fact, some historical and political commentator have difficulty calling North Korean Communist. Because Kim's North Korea ran on a dynasty structure (Kim and his family above all North Korean), and communist would not recognize any class structure (That is the reason why the Chinese have Cultural Revolution in the first place), so in a way, even today, North Korea cannot be called a True Communist. North Korea before Korean war is a dynasty, not communist. And even today, it went into a bit like communism but still maintain its dynasty structure.

 

[gambit]

China is the master of North Korea, if they don't care about how deep this situation goes, who are we to say otherwise, the best we all can do is to keep selling military equipment to Japan and South Korea to balance the situation.

The South Korean defense minister is suggesting the return of US tactical nuclear weapons. I say we go.