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Why not a civilian head of ISI?

The only argument Kamran Shafi has made in favor of the ISI having a civilian head is that 'other intelligence agencies have civilian heads' - that is not a good argument.

In response one could ask, 'why shouldn't the ISI DG be a serving military officer'?

You missed the point, civilian control does not mean it cannot headed by military. All it means is it reports to PM. With this change policy of country can be directed by PM, not military.
 
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He is still second incharge - what about leading the organization ??

The promostions are done according to rules and regulations and anyone from Navy, PAF, Army who is related to intellegence wing can sit for promotional exams.
 
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The only argument Kamran Shafi has made in favor of the ISI having a civilian head is that 'other intelligence agencies have civilian heads' - that is not a good argument.

In response one could ask, 'why shouldn't the ISI DG be a serving military officer'?

exactly.
I think the reason why in europe or usa they have part civil head is separation of powers. but in case of pakistan , could this separation be respected? i mean if a corrupted government is getting head of ISI , is it good?
i agree in this article there is no argue

anyway to speak about my country, it is a big problem the army got so much power. better say the milicians , bassijis, because i am army family member. the fact is they control everything now with the hand of the one leader of the country. i guess pakistan is another matter that army is still very needed for security.

could i ask you a question: is ISI a unique organization? is there any political branch of it? is the ISI having parts which are not following head ideas , even orders?
 
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exactly.
I think the reason why in europe or usa they have part civil head is separation of powers. but in case of pakistan , could this separation be respected? i mean if a corrupted government is getting head of ISI , is it good?
i agree in this article there is no argue

anyway to speak about my country, it is a big problem the army got so much power. better say the milicians , bassijis, because i am army family member. the fact is they control everything now with the hand of the one leader of the country. i guess pakistan is another matter that army is still very needed for security.

could i ask you a question: is ISI a unique organization? is there any political branch of it? is the ISI having parts which are not following head ideas , even orders?

The political wing of ISI was established by our "great" Civilian leader Bhutto for his political agenda so the onus is on civlian political leadership.

On the other hand this wing is abolished.
 
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You missed the point, civilian control does not mean it cannot headed by military. All it means is it reports to PM. With this change policy of country can be directed by PM, not military.

The DG ISI does report to the Prime Minister.
 
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The reason due to which ISI should not get a civilian head should have been very clear to the writer, but i believe the anger in him impaired his vision to have seen or thought about it.

Looking at our history of civilian govts having been run by politicians give us a good outlook that why not. ZAB used the intelligence agencies to clamp on his opposition and even created the FSF to brutalize anyone who opposed him, a democratic civil public elected PM turned to become a dictator having used the intelligence and security forces apparatus.

Similarly other examples are there too, Nawaz Shrarif appointed ISI chief personally, and tried to use him to gain an upper hand on his political rivals, it happened once and then second time again when he got another general known to him as ISI chief, he tried to do the same trick, in the end made him COAS by unceremoniously kicking out the serving COAS while he was abroad, PM got the power and he appointed an Engineering branch general incharge of PA by neglecting the much much more professional & competent generals.

I just mentioned a few examples to explain that what these civil publicly elected politicians do or can do if they are given power, powers which they misuse for personal gain forgetting about Pakistan and its security every time.

As Uncle Parker told to Superman, with great powers comes greater responsibilities :tongue:, which our immature, power hungry, selfish, rich, corrupt money hungry blah blah blah publicly elected politicians or should i say oligarchs can't handle. These oligarchs can't understand how to run and look after the security of the country they live in as they are born with silver or should i say with diamond spoons in their mouths having been gone through no hardships in their lifes and those minority who may have seen real life filled with hardships are not given access to positions where real power is.

All those countries & agencies which the writer referred have sound democratic foundations, with people in the ruling corridors having seen the hardship of life and risen to power from being nothing initially and they put their country and nation in front of themselves more then their personal rifts and hunger for power, as they know if they go for personal rifts and power, they will destroy their nation and country in doing so.

So till the day our oligarchs don't become politicians and people truly elected by the people and representing the people and nation, giving them such power would be inviting disaster, as our history clearly demonstrates that.

All leaders used intelligence agencies and security apparatus for personal gain and power without thinking about Pakistan or its people, be it Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, ZAB, Zia Ul Haq, Benazir, Nawaz Sharif, Musharaf or Zardari now.

And in the end, why Armed Forces should keep doing that, they rise to power from nothing too, they are no bodies when join the forces and after facing hardships, giving sacrifices and hard work reach the top giving them a good overview, knowledge & patriotism to think for the country first, their decision making power and vision is more then any of our oligarchs are having or may ever have.

Pakistan Zindabad :pakistan:
 
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By the way, ISI has people from all the armed forces services and also other security apparatus organizations. Civilians directly are also inducted, while people from other intelligence organizations also join on permanent or on deputation.

Even now some senior guys with no link to armed forces are at senior positions, even heading depts.

COAS nominates the DG ISI, while PM gives the final OK. And in the past, even PM got his man appointed on the post. So the notion that PM has no authority over it, is totally BS. DG ISI does reports to PM, but its not like he runs to PM on every small petty issue, rather those are dealt with on lower level, while bigger issues related to the country are discussed with the PM.

And Army appointing the head from its branch is very logical, its the most powerful among all the three and resources wise has the biggest share too in ISI and they are more involved in the internal and external issues related to Pakistan, plus the COAS needs someone trust worthy as ISI are the ears & eyes of Pakistan, someone he knows well enough and for good number of years with competency to run the organization, and these qualities would be in the guy from the Army, as other two services guys may lack some of the qualities mentioned above.
 
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You missed the point, civilian control does not mean it cannot headed by military. All it means is it reports to PM. With this change policy of country can be directed by PM, not military.

even raw do not report every thing to indian PM.
ISI had nothing to do with civilians .... we have fath in our military.
:pakistan:
 
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He is still second incharge - what about leading the organization ??

and wat about u stop worryin about that....
just look at the size of army and then comment. u have to look at the weights as well
 
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20% of pakistan i guess. many of whom didnt even have a clue if zardari will end up becomin a president.

He has not been selected by even 1% of the Pakistani people, he was a senator and became President. Senator he got selected due to his late wife BB.
 
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Why not a civilian head of ISI?


By Kamran Shafi
Tuesday, 17 Nov, 2009



IN view of the fact that the cardinal sin of the federal government to try and put the ISI under civilian control is cited as a reason behind all the obituaries presently being written about the imminent fall of a) just the president; b) all the major politicians; and c) the whole shoot, I’ve been trolling through the Internet to see how just many of the world’s top intelligence services are headed by serving military (in Pakistan’s case, read ‘army’) officers.

And how many are appointed by the army chief. Consider what I’ve come up with.

Except for two retired army officers in the early days, one a lieutenant colonel the other a major general, all the DGs of MI5, the “United Kingdom’s internal counter-intelligence and security agency were civil servants. The director-general reports to the home secretary, although the Security Service is not formally part of the home office”, and through him to the prime minister.

“The Secret Intelligence Service (SIS), colloquially known as MI6 is the United Kingdom’s external intelligence agency. Under the direction of the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC), it works alongside the Security Service (MI5), Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) and the defence intelligence staff (DIS).” Except for one naval captain, an admiral, a lieutenant colonel and a major general in the very early days, all of them retired, every single chief of this agency has been a ‘bloody civilian’, some from within its own ranks, others from the civil service. The present director is Britain’s former ambassador to the United Nations. The director reports to the chief cabinet secretary and through him to the prime minister.

Directors of Mossad, the dreaded Israeli intelligence agency which seems to be running rings (if reports in our conservative press and on our fire-breathing TV channels are to be believed) around our very own Mother of All Agencies, has been headed mostly by retired military officials (remember please that military service is compulsory in Israel) but also by ‘bloody civilians’. Mossad’s director is appointed by the prime minister and reports directly to him.

The director of the Central Intelligence Agency reports to the director of national intelligence (DNI), who in turn reports to the White House. The director is appointed by the president after recommendation from the DNI, and must be confirmed by a majority vote of the Senate. While there is no statutory provision which specifically excludes active military personnel from being nominated for the position, most directors have been civilians.

Barring Gen Reinhard Gehlen who set up the German intelligence agency Abteilung Fremde Heere Ost to principally keep an eye on the Russian easternfront during the Second World War, the present federal intelligence service, Bundesnachrichtendienst(BND), has always been headed by civilian public officials, notably by civil servant, lawyer and politician of the liberal Free Democratic Party, Klaus Kinkel who rose to be Germany’s federal minister of justice (1991–1992), foreign minister (1992–1998) and vice chancellor of Germany (1993–1998).

Next door in India all directors of RAW have been civilians, either civil servants or policemen or officials from within its own ranks. While the director RAW, also known as ‘Secretary (R)’, is under the direct command of the prime minister, he reports on an administrative basis to the cabinet secretary. However, on a daily basis ‘Secretary (R)’ reports to the national security adviser to the prime minister.

RAW too, if the press and TV channels are to be taken seriously, is running rings around us in close collaboration with Mossad.

So then, why is it that only in our country, our intelligence service is the fief of the army, and only of the army? Surely there are competent people other than generals who could well head the organisation and be a credit to it? I mean if all of the world’s leading agencies can be headed by civilians why not our ISI?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, what is known as the ‘Ghairat Lobby’ has taken yet another drubbing with the most recent report of the LA Times to the effect that ever since 9/11 fully one-third of the CIA’s budget has been diverted to the ISI. It also reminds us brutally what the Commando has already told us in his ‘book’ (stand up, Humayun Gohar): that the ISI sold people, some surely terrorists some very surely innocent, to the Americans for cash payments as low as $5000 a go, and as high as millions of dollars for those who had huge head moneys on offer for their capture/death.

It also tells us that the CIA money was in addition to the $15bn that poured into the country during the Commando’s dictatorship. In the words of the LA Times the ISI, “had also collected tens of millions of dollars through a classified CIA programme that pays for the capture or killing of wanted militants, a clandestine counterpart to the rewards publicly offered by the State Department”. Will the Ghairat Lobby please sit up and take note, and understand that such reports make its ghairatmand stand on the Kerry-Lugar Law all the more ludicrous and hypocritical.

Let me here once more caution the leaders of the major political parties, the PML-N and the PPP: please close ranks and collectively beat back the ongoing assault on democracy by the establishment. Our country simply cannot take another extra-legal intervention (I did not say martial law) to remove any one individual, or two, from the scene. To President Zardari let me say, yet again: do not prevaricate, act now on the Charter of Democracy; break away from the too-clever-by-half -self-servers that you have surrounded yourself with.

To Mr Nawaz Sharif, this: Asif Zardari is not the only target of the establishment, he is only the first. You are next. Consider: if there is an anti-AZ story on one page, there is an anti-NS story on another page of the same newspaper on the same day. The Internet is full of planted stories on both the large political parties; stories that desperately try to turn lay people away from electoral politics. Be prepared for more dirt.

United you politicians will stand, divided you will fall.

P.S. The Balochistan High Court has ordered Musharraf to appear before it in the case of Nawab Akbar Bugti’s murder. How come there is no further reporting on this earth-shaking event, weeks down the line, as if it never happened?

kshafi1@yahoo.co.uk
DAWN.COM | Columnists | Why not a civilian head of ISI?

Jana's first post to this was pretty much why we don't need a civilian head...I dont know what you guys started talking about after

To answer this question you would have to look at Pakistan's political environment...All of the examples that you gave are those countries which have a very stable "democratic" environment...meaning people select best possible candidates to run their country...therefore, in those countries it would make sense for them to head such sensitive and powerful institutions....Now when it comes to Pakistan, forget democracy we don't even a stable political environment...the people elected save a few good souls, are elected by goons, local tyrants and family connections etc... How much credibility do these elected people have compared to those who got elected democratically based on their experience and skills ? none !

therefore, to hand over the command of such a powerful institution to these people who
A. are incompetent and have absolutely no national interest
B. wont be there tomorrow...

it doesnt make any sense to me... i would like to know if it makes any sense to you ?

Also to further prove this point why it wouldnt work... The police department is headed by Civilian government in both our countries... just look at the level of corruption... people who are skilled get sidelined while those in-charge appoint ********... To do this to ISI ? and especially when it has proven it self to be among the top five agencies of the world ? ... i can understand why as an indian youd want us to do that :P

Foreign Policy: The List: The World’s Top Spy Agencies
 
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I know he's old enough to be my father (or grandfather even) so I shouldnt talk this way about elders......


but Kamran Shafi is a moron. I even emailed him and gave him a piece of my mind.


ISI is a military run organization, and is an integral part of Military & Civilian intelligence gathering.

Always has been, always will be. Some of these columnists really annoy me with their dim-sighted articles. But our media is free, so I wont rant further.
 
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Needed: a

Needed: a ‘bloody civilian’ at the ISI
By Kamran Shafi
Published: December 29, 2011

The writer is a columnist, a former major of the Pakistan Army and served as press secretary to Benazir Bhutto

In November 2009 I wrote an article arguing the case for a civilian head of the ISI, our equivalent of Britain’s MI5 (Security Service) and MI6 (Secret Intelligence Service); Germany’s Federal Intelligence Service (BND); France’s General Directorate for External Security (DGSE); Israel’s Mossad; and India’s RAW to name a few.

Of 16 Directors of MI5 and 13 of MI6 since the year 1909, only one military man served as director for each of the agencies; in the case of the German BND, of eleven presidents only one was an army general and that too during the Second World War; and in the French DGSE six were civilians and three soldiers since the year 1981.

And now to our special bug-bears: the Indian RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) and the Israeli Mossad: RAW has always had civilians head it, all civil servants belonging to various departments of government. Only in the case of Mossad have generals outnumbered civilians but even there have not had a monopoly on the agency.

Each one of the above intelligence agencies reports to the Cabinet Secretary of their respective governments and through that office to the prime minister/president of the country. The chiefs of the defence services have nothing in the world to do with any of the agencies, only receiving briefing papers and other such, like other concerned department heads.

Why am I repeating what I said some years ago? Because the present series of crises this poor and hapless country is facing are a direct consequence of a rampant ISI that is working outside the limits set by the Rules of Business and which is goose-stepping into the realm of other departments of government merely because it has a serving general at its head and therefore considers itself a part of the untouchable army.

Take the so-called Case of the Murky Memo. A person of low credibility writes an article in an international newspaper fingering a high official of government and the president himself in an unbelievable ‘plot’ to defang the security establishment of its coup-making prowess, and the DG ISI himself goes marching off to London to ‘investigate’ his own president without as a by-your-leave of the government of Pakistan! I ask you!

And this when the ISI is not an investigative body; does not have the authority to prosecute anyone, and the DG has no experience whatsoever in police work. Yet he takes it upon himself to become the investigator, prosecutor and judge? I ask you! At the same time, whilst making a report to his ‘chief’, the COAS, he conveniently overlooks the severe abuse and insults heaped upon the ISI itself by that same person of low credibility. There is not a squeak out of anyone in the Deep State about THIS aspect of the article, some portions of which have been seized upon selectively to launch a witch-hunt, what else.

This whole tamasha started when, instead of the prime minister who is the actual appointing authority, the present chief of army staff acting on his own advice to himself ‘appointed’ the present DG of the ISI. Whilst the methodology of appointing the DG of the ISI, invariably a serving general of the Pakistan army, is flawed ab initio — the COAS suggesting three names of which the PM has to choose one (!) — the fact that the present incumbent was chosen by the COAS made it doubly disastrous.

Another reason for the timing of this piece is the recent noise generated on the Internet, particularly on Twitter by Imran Khan’s PTI trolls whose one aim in life seems to be to trash everyone who disagrees with their Great Leader in the most vile (and very stupid) manner. Some of them asked the question “Who controls the ISI?”, and when told it was the PM, loosed a veritable tsunami of abuse on everyone and Charlie’s Aunt going so far as to say the Pakistan army was the saviour of the country etcetera, and how dare the PM control the ISI and other words to that effect. Whilst one can understand their defence of the security establishment given the PTI’s allegedly close ties to it they should be a little more circumspect in the manner in which they defend people accused of aiding and abetting the Great Leader.

Anyhow, trolls do what trolls are supposed to do so let us let them be. What should concern every thinking citizen of this country is how to rein in the ISI which has disappeared our own people; which has destabilised governments, the present effort being one such; which has mounted no-confidence moves against elected, sitting governments; and which is positioning itself to play what seems like a destructive role in post-NATO Afghanistan.

To my mind the best way is to firmly bring it under civilian control in the Cabinet Division of the government of Pakistan. This will be easier done if a civilian from amongst the civilian cadre of the ISI sits at the head of the organisation. I know that there are some excellent civilian officers who are unable to rise to senior positions which are booked for army generals followed by a sprinkling of air force and naval officers. The present government should make this an imperative for itself and let the devil take the hindmost!

A word to the prime minister: Will you please stop blowing red-hot and then stone-cold? Whilst one so appreciated your brave statements in and outside parliament about not allowing a state within a state, one was gobsmacked when you said you meant the defence secretary was creating one. What inanity was that, Makhdum Sahib?

You didn’t stop there and went one worse when you said you had done ‘minnat’ of Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani and Shuja Pasha to take their extensions. And even though you tried to back-pedal the next day it was futile. ‘Minnat’ does mean ‘to beg’. So, keep your eye on the ball; don’t flinch; and if you can harness the Deep State you will be a hero.

Published in The Express Tribune, December 30th, 2011.

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And the namak haram strikes again. i wanted to start a separate thread but then this was also started because of the same guy, so here goes.

We would love to have a civilian head of the ISI, but with the supreme commander of the armed forces a person like Zardari and with his ilks filling the Cabinet and characters of doubtful character leading national ministries (R.Malik et al), i doubt that a civilian DG would be able to sustain the pressures. With the cases like that of memogate, i am sure the story would have been buried long ago had the military not taken a stand.

You choose.
 
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People are talking about Civilian,
I say if we nominate any capable person from our other two services PAF or Navy even then it will be change.
Pakistan has 3 services head by three 4 star men.all should be equal for us,its not like commander in chief in case of Army Chief.
Same goes with Chain Joint chief of staff,we did not had any chairman from NAVY for decades.
 
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