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Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

Zee-shaun

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Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

  1. HAL_Sukhoi_FGFA_Stealth_Fighter_1.jpg

    Like most other Russian projects the FGFA or the PAK-FA is one which was high on promise but low on delivery. The specs for this aircraft promises a lot in terms of technology where the Russians are known to be lacking in capability and even they are unsure about their capacity to deliver. Lets look at specs of the T-50 aircraft which is available in Wikipedia.
    The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customization are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
    Length: 19.8 m (65.0 ft)
    Wingspan: 13.95 m (45.8 ft)
    Height: 4.74 m (15.6 ft)
    Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
    Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,680 lb)
    Loaded weight: 25,000 kg (55,115 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
    Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,160 lb)
    Powerplant: 2 × NPO Saturn izdeliye 117 (AL-41F1) or initial production, izdeliye 30 for later production thrust vectoring turbofan
    Dry thrust: 93.1 kN / 110 kN (21,000 lbf / 24,300 lbf) each
    Thrust with afterburner: 147 kN / 176 kN (33,067 lbf / 39,600 lbf) each
    Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb)

    Engine
    Saturn_31F_Turbofan.jpg

    The T-50 uses the NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engine with a dry thrust of 93kN.This is quite inadequate. Typically a 5th Generation aircraft with Supercruise as one of the main features should have a engine with a dry thrust of 110 – 120 kN.Such aircraft should not use afterburners because use of afterburners would give away the stealth. The Russians do not possess any proven design for such an engine and even if they come out with one, the result could be similar to that of Su – 30 MKI which has a track record of frequent burn-outs.

    Stealth Badly Engineered
    Sukhoi_Su_35_PAK-FA_Comparison.jpg

    Startling similarities between Su-35 and PAK-FA
    There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites. The air frame contains a lot of joins which is symbolic of poor construction techniques. Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.
    India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.
    Avionics
    The avionics suite as known in public domain is:
    Sh121 multi-functional integrated radio electronic system (MIRES)
    N079 AESA radar
    L402 Himalayas ECM suite built by KNIRTI institute
    101KS Atoll electro-optical suite
    101KS-O: Laser-based counter-measures against infrared missiles
    101KS-V: IRST for airborne targets
    101KS-U: Ultraviolet warning sensors
    101KS-N: Targeting pod

    This looks pretty ordinary and there is nothing which stands out as being uncommon or not available in aircraft of similar nature.

    AESA Radar
    Sukhoi_PAK_FA_AESA_Radar.jpg

    N079 AESA Radar
    The N079 is based on the N036 Byelka model, different versions of which were displayed at the MAKS airshow in 2009 and 2013.The radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP Institute consists of both X-band and L-band arrays but its performance against leading US models, especially the APG-77(V)2 of F-22A Raptor is unknown and kept secret for obvious reasons.
    Russian Trial & Error at India’s Cost
    The T-50 is the prototype developed for the Russian Air Force under the PAK-FA project. The FGFA is a derivative from the PAK-FA wherein the India specific customizations are sought to be done on the T-50 platform as per IAF’s requirement. So there is no joint development as such.
    On 25 January 2016, it was reported that Russia and India have agreed to develop FGFA and lower investment cost to $4 billion for each nation, down from $5.5 billion earlier.
    Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks…
    Should it cost $4 billion to make some customization? Informed sources say that it is the cost of development of the entire model and Russia will not invest a single rubble.
    In other words Russia is fooling India to fund the development of its 5th Generation fighter aircraft base model i.e.T-50 which will be further developed by them as per their needs.
    What will India get?
    India will get a badly engineered base model which cannot be called a 5th Generation fighter with or without India specific features. This will not satisfy the IAF’s requirement.

    Transfer of Technology Problems
    Sukhoi_T-50.jpg

    If we were to assume that Russia would develop a new powerful engine for this aircraft, re-engineer stealth and do every other thing to make it a world-class 5th Generation fighter jet one question still remains. Would it transfer technology to India?

    Russia has been very hesitant in transferring technology to India. It took about 8 years to transfer the barrel technology of T-90 tanks even though India purchased those in large numbers. In the case of Su -30 India placed the first order in 1996 for 50 Russian made Su-30′s.Thereafter several upgrades happened till 2012. On 24 December 2012, India ordered assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKIs by signing a deal during President Putin’s visit to India. This increases India’s order total to 272 Su-30MKIs. Russia didn’t transfer the Engine technology and HAL is dependent on Russia for components to assemble the engine and some spare parts. All this after India paid a whopping $15 Billion to Russia for design, development, CKD’s and SKD’s.

    At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.

    So it is likely that Russia won’t transfer crucial technology of the new fighter jet making India ever dependent on it for components, spares etc even after spending a hefty $4 Billion on so called” design and development”.

    In short the Russians plan is to milk India for the next 30 years, knowing fully well that she needs a 5th Generation fighter jet. The offer of “joint design and development” is just the entry point in their diabolical game plan.

    Conclusion
    Recent news suggest that the talks between India and Russia failed to decide on the S-400 surface-to-air missile system. India has stated that it wants to buy the next-generation air and missiles defense system but Russia wants to link the potential purchase to the PAK-FA deal.

    This suggests that Russia is aware that its bear hug with respect to the PAK-FA deal may not work, so it is trying to coerce India into it using another deal.

    According to India Today, New Delhi has lost confidence in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA effort after Moscow truncated its buy to about a squadron’s worth of jets. The prevailing view within the Indian air force is that if Russia—which is the senior partner—is backing out of the program, then it will be left as the sole operator of an aircraft that largely fails to meet its requirements. Instead of buying PAK-FA, Russia is planning to continue production of advanced Su-30 and Su-35 Flanker variants.


    India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA. In other words, the above is a Russian no-confidence vote against their own product.
    If the Russians are not confident about their own product should we repose confidence in it. The answer is a simple no.

    At a time when various indigenous fighter jet programs like LCA Mark 2, AMCA are struggling to get fund allocated from the Finance ministry, spending a huge amount of this magnitude on some junk fighter jet of foreign design is pure wastage of money.
    India’s own Fifth Generation Fighter project – AMCA has far better design and specifications compared to PAK-FA.


    Its always better that we spend billions of dollars in training our own scientists and engineers in developing 5th Generation stealth fighter jet technology as it will not only strengthen our defense but also provide jobs to millions of our countrymen.

    Quite rightly the Indian MoD, IAF has expressed reservations over this deal and they should now go one step further to dump it.

    Note: This piece is from IDN archives, found it relevant even now as so much of noise is being made of this project but no clear headway is visible on the ground
    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/idn-archives-why-india-should-dump-fgfa.html
 
There is no clear vision as to how stealth will be achieved, neither does it make heavy use of sloped angles as in F-22 Raptor nor does it make use of composites.

Neither do the F-35 or B-2 use sloping (meaning flat) angles like the F-22, but both are stealthy platforms.
B2TakingOff.jpg


The upcoming B-21 is also unlikely to have extensive sloping angles. Stealth designs have moved on from the F-22 and F-117 type of geometry.
B-2.jpg


LM's proposed stealthy tanker also eschews such designs opting for a rounded approach, as reflects the current trend in aerial stealth.


As do the Predator-C, Kratos and X-47B. All stealthy UAVs.
PredC-5.jpg


Northrop+Grumman+X-47B+Unmanned+Combat+Air+System+(UCAS)+demonstrator+taxies+on+the+flight+deck+of+the+aircraft+carrier+USS+Harry+S.+Truman+(CVN+75).+Harry+S.+Truman+aircraft+carrier+host+test+operations+for+an+unmanned+airc+(4).jpg


Having a rounded airframe does not make a platform unstealthy if the proper considerations are taken.

Out of 12 weapon hard points 6 are internal and 6 are on the wings. The hard points on the wings give away the stealthiness of an aircraft, thus it leaves no in doubt about the fact that stealth is poorly engineered.

Again this is whataboutery. Both the F-22 and F-35 can also carry external stores.
kl5vD.jpg


Like the F-35 and F-22, the T-50 can fly with solely internal stores if the mission requires it to maintain a clean profile.
Sukhoi_T-50_Pichugin.jpg


Its external rails can be removed, just like with the F-35 and F-22.
137340.jpg


Very amateurish analysis by the article making numerous erroneous claims.
 
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There are some flaws In T-50 as they have initially ordered 12 fighters
 
Joke of the year!

Russia has the best aviation technologies in the world after USA. No nation can compete except US. From Mig-21 to SU-35, from Il-76 to Buran??? All these companies came under UAC an developing their best PAK FA.


People are laughable.
 
I wish the project gets ditched.We have already wasted decade negotiating on this with a zero outcome..
Russian jets are disaster in terms of serviceability,maintenance specially when operated in such huge numbers.. Mig 29 is a pathetic example(With 30-40 serviceability).We took a decade to adopt SU 30 serviceability to 60 & now a decade later we are about to sign agreement for license manufacturing of spares for a decent 75% serviceability....

Rather we should spend those money Sukhoi upgradation,buying more Rafales & on AMCA...
 
I wish the project gets ditched.We have already wasted decade negotiating on this with a zero outcome..
Russian jets are disaster in terms of serviceability,maintenance specially when operated in such huge numbers.. Mig 29 is a pathetic example(With 30-40 serviceability).We took a decade to adopt SU 30 serviceability to 60 & now a decade later we are about to sign agreement for license manufacturing of spares for a decent 75% serviceability....

Rather we should spend those money Sukhoi upgradation,buying more Rafales & on AMCA...
The bribe is main culprit. IAF wants money politicians want money.
Where do u get cheap service.

Pilots are ill trained they crash anything given to them.

More over where is the option? American want to sell their outdated garbage.

India had Russia as reliable defence partner. We must keep them with us.
 
The bribe is main culprit. IAF wants money politicians want money.
Where do u get cheap service.

Pilots are ill trained they crash anything given to them.

More over where is the option? American want to sell their outdated garbage.

India had Russia as reliable defence partner. We must keep them with us.

Reliable like?MKI time we were used as a cash cow & even variants were sold to third parties we were not given any royalties.Also that doesn't mean I am saying they are fully unreliable.They have a colorful history with us..I am just saying we have to invest our money sincerely in the right basket,not just getting lured away by what Russians say.

I am not saying to go for American jets.But we definitely need another single engine fighter(Whether American or not) as Tejas production rate is very low..That's different thing...

But for fifth gen rather than buying Russian jets I think investing on Super Sukhoi,Rafale,AMCA would be much better..Recent news that rolling around is if we go for FGFA it wouldn't be a T50 based.So everything will be started from basic including design.So it's meaningless to involve in which hasn't even started yet.On the other side homegrown AMCA design almost going to be finalized....

Sukhoi & Rafale both are very competent even against 5th gen fighters & would be deadlier in future upgrade..
Our previous govt also was incompetent to take any initiatives that has made us an import house.Even had to import a screw...
 
The Indians have ditched the PAK FA from the very outset

They will consider a new design the FGFA if the russians share cost and TOT and allows input and fusion of western technology.

The Russians are struggling to provide this .......THEY WANT & NEED indian money approx. 5 billion dollars but the specs don't meet indian demands.

INDIA WILL GO FOR
Massive upgrade of mki to Super mki
More rafales
AND then move to indengious AMCA with partner as consultant either SAAB OR DASSULT

Russia is finished in INDIA as main supplier

FUTURE IS
Make in india
France
Israel
USA
Russia
 
In 2014 IAF wasn't happy with PAK-FA engine's performance that why new engine is being tested. Russia don't care much about stealth when they got S-400 with upcoming S-500. The problem lies with India wants production line with export rights, Russia already agreed to give full ToT but we are asking more. Now Rostec is saying that Indian FGFA will be new aircraft with some technology from T-50, thats why we are reviewing do we really need Russian's help?
 
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No

India does not need fifth gen yet.

Concentrate on

Lca tejas and then AMCA

Mean time more rafales

And massive upgrade su30mki
 
The most serious problem is the missile on T50 is very old technology. A27/A77. I think India shall go for F35.

In 2014 IAF wasn't happy with PAK-FA engine's performance that why new engine is being tested. Russia don't care much about stealth when they got S-400 with upcoming S-500. The problem lies with India wants production line with export rights, Russia already agreed to give full ToT but we are asking more. Now Rostec is saying that Indian FGFA will be new aircraft with some technology from T-50, thats why we are reviewing do we really need Russian's help?
Do you believe they can make a better fighter than T50??

Reliable like?MKI time we were used as a cash cow & even variants were sold to third parties we were not given any royalties.Also that doesn't mean I am saying they are fully unreliable.They have a colorful history with us..I am just saying we have to invest our money sincerely in the right basket,not just getting lured away by what Russians say.

I am not saying to go for American jets.But we definitely need another single engine fighter(Whether American or not) as Tejas production rate is very low..That's different thing...

But for fifth gen rather than buying Russian jets I think investing on Super Sukhoi,Rafale,AMCA would be much better..Recent news that rolling around is if we go for FGFA it wouldn't be a T50 based.So everything will be started from basic including design.So it's meaningless to involve in which hasn't even started yet.On the other side homegrown AMCA design almost going to be finalized....

Sukhoi & Rafale both are very competent even against 5th gen fighters & would be deadlier in future upgrade..
Our previous govt also was incompetent to take any initiatives that has made us an import house.Even had to import a screw...
Very well said! MKI sold to India as a teach demonstrator, Russia take you as cash cow. Always be high on promise, and low on delivery.

To be honest, I don't like Russia.
 
Exactly how much money India has spent on FGFA? I mean already the money has gone and will not return in any form?
 

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