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What's Wrong with Pakistan? --BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN

Thank you.

So 90s. Correct?

OK now go watch the movie Gandhi. Even though it is not an authentic documentary, you will see the reference to Pakistan and how it is linked to the term "terrorism". And the movie was written in late 70s and completed in 1982.

The script of the movie was approved by Indian government.

And thus

there was an intellectual effort to link Pakistan and terrorism in the mind of the viewers.

But the thing is my friend, India is not framing you.It is only exposing you for what you are- a terrorist supporting extremist nation.Your textbooks ask your children to "enumerate atleast 8 differences between Hindus and Muslims" and "explain why Hindus and Muslims can not live in the same country". Am I right or wrong ? A yes or no would suffice.


Indian Hindus have been accusing Muslims of subcontinent for terrorism for a long long time.

Even though the Muslims and Hindus both had done pretty similar bad things, and Hindus being majority have done more.
mean


So next time when you accuse Pakistan of terrorism, just remember that it is not something new.

It is now in the genetic makeup of Indian Hindus to consider a subcontinent Muslim in general and a Pakistani in particular a terrorist until proven guilty.

Wrong, our most celebrated President is a Muslim.My friends are Muslims.So please don't think you know me better than myself.
We hold no grudge against Muslims.In Pakistan minorities are treated badly, hence you think you will be treated same way if you somehow become a minority.

Regarding terrorism emanating from India- Has any Indian attacked your Parliament or Karachi ? A yes or no would suffice.

This is the mindset, that drives every statement from an Indian from top level to the lowly PDF poster to repeat the same thing over and over andover and over.

Off course Pakistanis do not help their cause when sad incidents like attack on Parliament or Mumbai happen.

Do you realize you are contradicting yourself ? It is precisely due to incidents above we, no the whole world, thinks that you support terrorists.Is that wrong? A yes or no would suffice.

It is almost like how whites think of Black Americans.

Sure Blacks commit petty crime, their education rates are low, and jails are filled with Blacks even though blacks are only 11-15% of American population.


Surely blacks should and could do a lot to improve their image in the eyes of superior whites.


But then we cannot ignore the rampant racism against blacks either.


Precisely the same way, Indian racism is the mirror image of Pakistani terrorism.

they both go hand in hand.

and have done so for centuries (and not 90s as you suggest).

I can't believe you are making this point.What you are saying is Muslims have been using terrorism for centuries and Hindus have been holding this against them? That is very reasonable Sir.And you have changed India-Pak to Hindu-Muslim, while sometime before you were of the opinion that India came into existence in '47.Which statement is the truth Sir ?

And while we are at the subject, India is not Hindu or Muslim, India is secular. We do not care if Muslims invaded India and committed atrocities like looting and raping.Infact, if anyone should care, it should be the subcontinental Muslims.




ps. Hope one day we can break this cycle of hate and prejudice.

Yeah, me too.But, you have got to realize we are already doing our bit.We are a secular democracy marching towards the future.You have to decide if you want to stop being Anti-India and forge your own path or carry on supporting terrorists earning global infamy.



Another racist statement. I know you even don't realize what you just said. I know you are a good man deep down. But unfortunately society has programmed all these stereotypes.

How can asking someone if they knew who their ancestors were can be racist is beyond me.

Never questioned "ancestry" of indian posters. Sorry if you thought so.


I was merely pointing out the fact that modern day India is just young country born on August 15th, 1947.

That's all.

No offense was intended.

Yes modern India was came into being in '47.But India has existed since time immemorial .Can you honestly say the same about about Pakistan, which only came to existence because of some hateful propaganda that Hindus and Muslims are somehow different ?
 
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Yes modern India was came into being in '47.But India has existed since time immemorial .Can you honestly say the same about about Pakistan

Go get some sleep and when you wake up in morning just read the history of indus valley civilization just to educate yourself and one more thing Peshawar one of our provincial capital's history dates back to 20000 BC much older than your 5000 year old mahabhart.
 
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@Cherokee;
There are intersesting but provacative parts in this piece by Kaplan. Regardless of what position one may take on the validity of his views.

Nonetheless; one part (at the end) stands out. seemingly as a prognosis (if one may use that expression) of the future.
He says:
"At the same time, as Pakistan is primarily interested in southern and eastern Afghanistan, the part of Afghanistan north of the Hindu Kush mountains may, if current trends continue, become more peaceful and drift into the economic orbit of the former Soviet Central Asian republics, especially given that Uzbeks and Tajiks live astride northern Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. This new formation would closely approximate the borders of ancient Bactria, with which Alexander the Great was so familiar."

That is a likelyhood given the presently fissiparous trends in Afghanistan to start with and disagreements about Afghanistan outside that country. It is a POV that has been put forth by many commentators about afghanistan. And had something to do with the basis of Robert Blackwil's "Plan B" in the Afghan context. Other countries too seem to have factored that in into their thought-processes. Hence the flurry of meetings on Afghanistan by Russia, China among others wrt Afghanistan. China is investing big in Afhanistan; with even more planned. So it will like to cover its bases, just as Russia is very keen to secure one flank. The irony is that all present moves do not involve Iran in any way; though Iran is crucial to stabilising Afghanistan! Afghanistan is likely to face 'balkanisation'; with the boil-over spilling around.
How that will impact the neighborhood remains to be seen.

Makes one wonder how did the Northern Afghans gel for all these years with the Pustuns occupying the south, especially before the Soviet Union, Mujahadeen and the Taliban(who went full retard in the 90's) - was there an amalgamated society centuries ago - must have been because of the heavy influx of different races who have been living together in Afghanistan for centuries. As for the highlighted piece, it surely talks about the divide that separates the Pustoon held areas with the Northern Afghan held areas.

The author also points out that majority Pushtuns are Pakistani pushtuns compared to Afghani and the Afghan pushtun forms 30% of Afghanistan population - that translates to a 30% seat share for Afghan Pustuns in the Afghan assembly if there is a reconciliation and an agreement of sharing of power.
 
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Go get some sleep and when you wake up in morning just read the history of indus valley civilization just to educate yourself and one more thing Peshawar one of our provincial capital's history dates back to 20000 BC much older than your 5000 year old mahabhart.

Sir, with all due respect, you are wrong. Pakistan was created for Muslims of the subcontinent.Read about the two nation theory.

Are you saying there were Muslims living in the IVC ?
And if you people were living in Peshawar during Mahabharat, then it its your Mahabharat too.
Then which statement is true ?

Therein lies the dichotomy that fauji was pushing on Indians.
 
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No Neighbor necessarily knows more than you or less than you. Proximity is not necessarily an adjunct to knowledge. Persistent, objective, study is likely to matter more on this score. And I'm not even sure that Robert Kaplan went to any Ivy League school. But he did attend U.S. Army’s Command and General Staff College; which is not counted in the Ivy League.

So does that mean your coming or what? :p
 
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Yes modern India was came into being in '47.But India has existed since time immemorial .Can you honestly say the same about about Pakistan, ..

Modern day India is a collection of distinct states and cultures that have existed for a long long time.

Modern day Pakistan is a collection of distinct states and cultures that have existed for a long long time.




.... Pakistan, which only came to existence because of some hateful propaganda that Hindus and Muslims are somehow different ?


Do you really know who gave the concept of Pakistan? and when?

Hint: it was NOT Jinnah or Rehmat ali.


Hope this question will be enlightening for you.


peace

Makes one wonder how did the Northern Afghans gel for all these years with the Pustuns occupying the south,.

Just like hardworking South Indians "gel" with BIMARU states :lol:
 
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I think it's important that all those who wish to comment on th thread do so, only after reading Kaplan's piece -- A whole lot of comments here suggest that those comments are not informed by what Kaplan has had to write.

Thank you.

Here is a quote:

What we know as modern-day Pakistan is far from an artificial entity; it is just the latest of the many spatial arrangements for states on the subcontinent. The map of the Harappan civilization, a complex network of centrally controlled chieftaincies in the late fourth to mid-second millennium B.C., was one of its earliest predecessors.
The Harappan world stretched from Baluchistan northeast up to Kashmir and southeast down almost to both Delhi and Mumbai, nearly touching present-day Iran and Afghanistan and extending into both northwestern and western India. It was a complex geography of settlement that adhered to landscapes capable of supporting irrigation, and whose heartland was today's Pakistan.


Let's discuss.
 
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What's to discuss, it's pretty straight forward -- some people, it is obvious have not read the entire article which I posted
 
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Nothing wrong with this view as such, but it is the hostility towards its neighbourhood that marks Pakistan as a Sparta of modern times. And that analogy can be expanded upon, not merely to amuse but even to instruct.

The same distortions are present today, as was visible and commented upon copiously in ancient times. The dignity and self-restraint of individuals of a nation seeking military proficiency above all else is visible; so, too, the peculiar vulnerability of its leaders and its individual citizens to the temptations of wealth and the lure of material comforts. While the military proficiency sought after is available, it does not extend to a sense of the state of the world at large, or a sense of strategic possibility. Again and again and again, we see demonstrated a clever, even precocious aptitude for military artifice, invariably betrayed by a total lack of strategic possibility. In ancient times, the strength and discipline of a Spartan hoplite prevailed in land warfare; today's machine guns, tanks and aircraft prevent this from repeating itself.

It is possible to go on, but this should be enough to make the point.
 
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Nothing wrong with this view as such, but it is the hostility towards its neighbourhood that marks Pakistan as a Sparta of modern times. And that analogy can be expanded upon, not merely to amuse but even to instruct.

The same distortions are present today, as was visible and commented upon copiously in ancient times. The dignity and self-restraint of individuals of a nation seeking military proficiency above all else is visible; so, too, the peculiar vulnerability of its leaders and its individual citizens to the temptations of wealth and the lure of material comforts. While the military proficiency sought after is available, it does not extend to a sense of the state of the world at large, or a sense of strategic possibility. Again and again and again, we see demonstrated a clever, even precocious aptitude for military artifice, invariably betrayed by a total lack of strategic possibility. In ancient times, the strength and discipline of a Spartan hoplite prevailed in land warfare; today's machine guns, tanks and aircraft prevent this from repeating itself.

It is possible to go on, but this should be enough to make the point.

Please also see a thread : Ideology Media & Militancy on this forum

Also "Sparta" analogy is deeply flawed when applied to Pakistan -- Sparta was only a problem to Athens and vice versa because of the competition between a established and plateauing power (Sparta) and a rising power (Athens)
 
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Nothing wrong with this view as such, but it is the hostility towards its neighbourhood that marks Pakistan as a Sparta of modern times..

obviously as an Indian you will blame the other side.

However Mr. Kaplan says and I quote:


Americans on their way out in coming years, India will attempt to fill the void partially by building infrastructure projects and providing support to the Afghan security services. This will mark the beginning of the real battle between the Indus state and the Gangetic state for domination of southern Central Asia.



This is a classic chess game between Indus valley state (civilization) and Ganga valley state (civilization).


While IVS seeks strategic depth in Afghanistan,

the GVS seeks strategic encirclement of IVS via Afghanistan.

And Afghanistanis as usual are seeking Afghanistan in the whole fiasco.


it smacks of ignorance when Indian posters (from GVS) come on this board and blame only the other side aka IVS.


peace
 
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See what many of our Indian friends are missing is the point Kaplan makes about what the area that is today Pakistan and what it's identity affiliation is AND how Eastern and Southern areas of what is now Afghanistan, a traditional part of that cultural and economic continuum -- That is the point in ending that the past may be the future - @Joe Shearer -- Please also see my last post on the "Sun on Shoulders, Wind in Hair" thread on the China defense board
 
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@muse compels attention. In response to his admonition to stay close to Kaplan's analysis while commenting, the following is submitted:


Perversity characterizes Pakistan. Only the worst African hellholes, Afghanistan, Haiti, Yemen, and Iraq rank higher on this year's Failed States Index. The country is run by a military obsessed with -- and, for decades, invested in -- the conflict with India, and by a civilian elite that steals all it can and pays almost no taxes. But despite an overbearing military, tribes "defined by a near-universal male participation in organized violence," as the late European anthropologist Ernest Gellner put it, dominate massive swaths of territory. The absence of the state makes for 20-hour daily electricity blackouts and an almost nonexistent education system in many areas.

This is almost a necessary invocation to the gods while initiating an analytic description, and can be skipped.

The root cause of these manifold failures, in many minds, is the very artificiality of Pakistan itself: a cartographic puzzle piece sandwiched between India and Central Asia that splits apart what the British Empire ruled as one indivisible subcontinent. Pakistan claims to represent the Indian subcontinent's Muslims, but more Muslims live in India and Bangladesh put together than in Pakistan. In the absence of any geographical reason for its existence, Pakistan, so the assumption goes, can fall back only on Islamic extremism as an organizing principle of the state.

Kaplan contradicts himself - perhaps.

Here he states that there is no geographic reason for its existence; later, he turns around 180 degrees, and comes speeding up the road back at the reader.

What we know as modern-day Pakistan is far from an artificial entity; it is just the latest of the many spatial arrangements for states on the subcontinent. The map of the Harappan civilization, a complex network of centrally controlled chieftaincies in the late fourth to mid-second millennium B.C., was one of its earliest predecessors. The Harappan world stretched from Baluchistan northeast up to Kashmir and southeast down almost to both Delhi and Mumbai, nearly touching present-day Iran and Afghanistan and extending into both northwestern and western India. It was a complex geography of settlement that adhered to landscapes capable of supporting irrigation, and whose heartland was today's Pakistan.

This is a powerful argument against the inherently Muslim nature of Pakistan argument, and should be considered carefully. India - cultural India, not geographical or political India - consisted of cultural growth around a set of rivers, so:

  1. The Ganga-aj;
  2. The Brahmaputra;
  3. The Mahanadi;
  4. The Krishna;
  5. The Godavari;
  6. The Kaveri;
  7. The Tungabhadra;
  8. The Narmada;
  9. The Indus;

While there was always strong cultural bonding between these foci of growth, it was the exception rather than the rule that they were all under a single political authority. It is quite natural to see present-day Pakistan as a successor state of the culture centred around the Indus, rather than as the artificial entity that seems to obsess everyone.

As has been pointed out again and again, if the people of Pakistan believe in Pakistan, that is the best reason for Pakistan to exist, rather than the religious reason. And the justification for the people of Pakistan to believe in Pakistan is precisely this, that Pakistan exists today, and never mind the original purpose; that Pakistan has everything in its favour to settle down to nationhood, and that the region today known as Pakistan actually has a history of distinctive existence and growth from at 1500 BC.

But this core assumption about what ails Pakistan is false. Pakistan, which presents more nightmare scenarios for American policymakers than perhaps any other country, does have geographical logic. The vision of Pakistan's founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not constitute a mere power grab at the expense of India's Hindu-dominated Congress party. There was much history and geography behind his drive to create a separate Muslim state anchored in the subcontinent's northwest, abutting southern Central Asia. Understanding this legacy properly leads to a very troubling scenario about where Pakistan -- and by extension, Afghanistan and India -- may now be headed. Pakistan's present and future, for better or worse, are still best understood through its geography.

Well, there we are, then.

Related
Was the Arab Spring Worth It?

THE MUSLIM EXPERIENCE in South Asia begins with the concept of al-Hind, the Arabic word for India. Al-Hind invokes the vast tracts of the northern and northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent that came under mainly Turko-Islamic rule in the Middle Ages and were protected from the horse-borne Mongols by lack of sufficient pastureland. The process of Muslim conquest began in Sindh, the desert tract south and east of Iran and Afghanistan, adjacent to the Arabian Sea, easily accessible to the Middle East by land and maritime routes.

The Umayyad Arabs conquered and Islamicized Sindh in the early eighth century. Then came the Turkic Ghaznavids (based out of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan), who conquered parts of northern India in the 11th century. The Ghaznavids were followed by the Delhi Sultanate, a military oligarchy between the early 13th and early 16th centuries, which preceded the splendorous rule of the Persianized Mughal dynasty on the subcontinent. All these Muslim warriors governed immense inkblots of territory that were extensions of the Arab-Persian world that lay to the west, even as they interacted and traded with China to the north and east. It was a land without fixed borders that, according to University of Wisconsin historian André Wink, represented a rich confection of Arab, Persian, and Turkic culture, bustling with trade routes to Muslim Central Asia.

To the extent that one area was the ganglion of this Muslim civilization, it was today's Pakistan. Fertile Punjab, which straddles the Pakistan-India frontier, "linked the Mughal empire, through commercial, cultural and ethnic intercourse, with Persia and Central Asia," writes University of Chicago historian Muzaffar Alam. This area of Pakistan has been for centuries the civilizational intermediary connecting the cool and sparsely populated tableland of Central Asia with the hot and teeming panel of cultivation in the Indian subcontinent. Pakistan's many mountain passes, especially those of Khyber and Bolan, join Kabul and Kandahar in Afghanistan with the wheat- and rice-baskets thousands of feet below. The descent from Afghanistan to the Indus River, which runs lengthwise through the middle of Pakistan, is exceedingly gradual, so for millennia various cultures occupied both the high plateaus and the lowland riverine plains. This entire middle region -- not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia -- was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.


This is almost as misleading as the buffoon Dalrymple's latest effusion about the graveyard of empires, or, considering its eugenic design to be a headline, The Graveyard of Empires.

An historian would hesitate to say what Kaplan, in his role as geo-strategic political analyst, has just said. Every chronicler of those times knows that the pivot around which states in this trans-Indus (from my point of view) geography rotated was Khorasan. This was true for all the entities mentioned by Kaplan, except for Umayyad Sindh.

What we know as modern-day Pakistan is far from an artificial entity; it is just the latest of the many spatial arrangements for states on the subcontinent. The map of the Harappan civilization, a complex network of centrally controlled chieftaincies in the late fourth to mid-second millennium B.C., was one of its earliest predecessors. The Harappan world stretched from Baluchistan northeast up to Kashmir and southeast down almost to both Delhi and Mumbai, nearly touching present-day Iran and Afghanistan and extending into both northwestern and western India. It was a complex geography of settlement that adhered to landscapes capable of supporting irrigation, and whose heartland was today's Pakistan.

Is there some misunderstanding here? The IVC was entirely rain-fed.

The Mauryan Empire, which existed from the fourth to the second centuries B.C., came to envelop much of the subcontinent and thus, for the first time in history, encouraged the idea of India as a political entity. But whereas the area of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and northern India all fell under Mauryan rule, India's deep south did not. Next came the Kushan Empire, whose Indo-European rulers conquered territory from the Ferghana Valley, in the demographic heart of Central Asia, to Bihar in northeastern India. Once again, the heart of the empire that linked Central Asia and India was in Pakistan; one of the Kushan capitals was Peshawar, Pakistan's frontier city today.

More unhappiness. There were excellent reasons why the deep south - Tamilakam - was not shown as Maurya territory. It was then, and continued to be for several hundred years more - tribal in nature, in terms of formation of statehood. The first moves towards statehood occurred in what is now described as early mediaeval India, between the seventh and eighth centuries AD, with the Pallavas, the Pandyas and the Cheras.

India is the counterfactual to Pakistan's dilemma. India's individual states are linguistically based and thus have confident identities: Kannada-speaking Karnataka, Marathi-speaking Maharashtra, Telugu-speaking Andhra Pradesh, Bengali-speaking West Bengal, Hindi-speaking Uttar Pradesh, and so forth. This might, in some scenarios, lead to local nationalism and irredentist movements, as is the case with Pakistan. Because central authority in New Delhi is restricted, however, diversity is celebrated and has become, in turn, a healthy basis for a pan-Indian national identity.

Objectionable.

A very complex scenario is reduced to three or four dimensions and presented, for the credulous to imbibe.

Deeply unsatisfactory.

At the same time, as Pakistan is primarily interested in southern and eastern Afghanistan, the part of Afghanistan north of the Hindu Kush mountains may, if current trends continue, become more peaceful and drift into the economic orbit of the former Soviet Central Asian republics, especially given that Uzbeks and Tajiks live astride northern Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. This new formation would closely approximate the borders of ancient Bactria, with which Alexander the Great was so familiar.

Indeed, the past may hold the key to the future of al-Hind.


It's a four page article can be read here :

What's Wrong with Pakistan? - By Robert D. Kaplan | Foreign Policy
 
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