Water Wars: The impact of India stopping Pakistani water

[Ali.009]

We can prtty much resolve all the disputes with India, if we have a leader. Thats all it takes. Space tech wont give us anything unless we have corrupt rulers sitting on our heads, who are traitors and failed politicians by any world standard.

 

[kingfisher99]

IHC notice to ministries in Baglihar Dam case
By Assad Hameed submitted 2 days 15 hours ago

ISLAMABAD - Chief Justice Islamabad High Court (IHC) Justice Sardar Muhammad Aslam Tuesday placed the ministries of Foreign Affairs, Water and Power on notice over a legal challenge against government’s laxity towards construction of Baglihar Dam in India.
The petitioner, M Kowkab Iqbal, has also requested IHC to inquire from the respondents as to what steps had been taken by the government after the start of the controversial water reservoir by Pakistan’s archrival.
Arguing his plea before the single bench of IHC, the petitioner pointed out that India was constructing Baglihar Dam in complete violation of the Indus Water Treaty.
Pakistan will suffer irreparable loss due to this project by the Indians as it will deprive Pakistan of water for almost all crops, Iqbal told the court, fearing it will be a huge dent to the agriculture sector.
He blasted India for constructing water reservoirs on waters which belong to Pakistan under the Indus Water Treaty.
Kowkab came down hard on the concerned Pakistani ministries for offering a blind eye to the construction of the Baglihar Dam.
After hearing the arguments of the petitioner, Chief Justice Sardar Muhammad Aslam issued notices to the respondents before adjourning the hearing in the issue for a date in office.

 

[kingfisher99]

News



Thursday, October 30, 2008

Second unit of Baglihar Dam commissioned

NEW DELHI: The second 150 megawatts (MW) power generation unit of the controversial Baglihar Dam started production in Indian-held Kashmir on Wednesday. The first unit, also with a capacity of 150MW, was inaugurated by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on October 10. The project has three units with a combined capacity of 450MW. With the commissioning of the second unit, the total power production from the project has risen to 300MW. India has also planned several other projects on the Chenab River. Agreements for three projects have already been inked. Pakistan has expressed concerns over the blockade of Chenab water by India due to the filling of Baglihar Dam. Pakistan Indus Water Commissioner Syed Jamaat Ali Shah said Pakistan has suffered a loss of 0.2 million acre feet of water. The commissioner is expected to visit the Marala headworks on the Chenab to verify the data of water loss presented by Pakistan in a meeting with Indian officials last week. app

Courtesy DailyTimes

 

[IceCold]

yaar jab dekho suicide ? why not try to solve the issue? why do you have to bring in the intl' community that you barely need? why not use your superior *** kicking abilities?

there is only one way to solve this issue, and its diplomatically, going to war will make sure that the water gets cut off for good. I'm sure they'll work it out.

Understand english before taking a meaning of your own out of it. Where did i said that we will bring the intl community into it. I said Intl community will get involved due to nuclear factor and they will not ask premission for doing so. Is it that hard to get through your thick skull.
As for the *** kicking, if indeed things go down to that level, where war is a must, what makes you think that Pakistan will not go to war? Understand this one way or the other, Pakistan will die out, like i said if there is no water you cant expect to live without it, and dont expect us to beg India for water, water which is rightfully ours according to the Indus treaty. So mark my words on this one, India goes down this low, (after all you can expect anything from a bunnia) Pakistan will not hesitate to initate a war whatever the out come to that maybe.

 

[IceCold]

The belief in international community to prevent you from committing harakiri is really touching.

Dude your no first use policy will go down the toilet drain once India thinks it has lost the battle, so nuclear factor remains an option for both and not just us.

I am really surprised by the suicidal and blackmailing behavior (rescue us or I will do bad things) by even some of the better informed Pakistani members.

This isnt black mailing, its a depiction of what will happen if things go down this low. You are not realizing how sensitive this issue really is for us and i dont want to waste my time in trying to put it though you, only thing that you do need to understand however is that if water gets cut off, Pakistan dies and if we have to die this way, dont think we will go down quitely.

 

[Vinod2070]

So mark my words on this one, India goes down this low, (after all you can expect anything from a bunnia) Pakistan will not hesitate to initate a war whatever the out come to that maybe.

Is there nothing that you can speak without generalizations?

Do you realize your Qaid was from a Bania family? His Grandfather was a Hindu Bania from Gujarat who converted for obscure reasons.

The people of Indian subcontinent should be thankful to the western state of Gujarat. The state can lay its claim to be the ancestral home of both M.K. Gandhi and M.A. Jinnah, the two charismatic leaders of this century. While Gandhi was born in 1869 at Porbandar under Kathiawar district, Jinnah was born seven years later in Karachi, as written in most reference books. However, I have seen in one older reference book citing Bombay as his birthplace (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1955, Volume 13, page 69). His family originated from a Gujarati Khoja stock. Khoja’s are Muslim Gujaratis belonging to ‘Bania’ class and are mostly from Kathiawar peninsula. [A retired scientist at my research center who was a teenager during the partition and who grew up as a boy in Surat district of Gujarat confirmed me about Jinnah’s Gujarati origin. I also found several references for Jinnah being born in a Khoja family.] So, Jinnah aficionados should take a kind note of this information and not portray him as a Sindhi origin or a bona fide Kur-wa-chi-walla. Jinnah’s father, however, ran a business in Karachi where young Jinnah lived in his formative years.

And then you complain others of generalizations!

 

[IceCold]

Is there nothing that you can speak without generalizations?

Do you realize your Qaid was from a Bania family? His Grandfather was a Hindu Bania from Gujarat who converted for obscure reasons.



And then you complain others of generalizations!

Did I? By the way what India is doing currently under the leader ship of singh represents the typical bunnia minded thinking. Quaid-e-Azam or his family wasnt drying any one out.

 

[Vinod2070]

Dude your no first use policy will go down the toilet drain once India thinks it has lost the battle, so nuclear factor remains an option for both and not just us.

I never said that nuclear weapons is not an option. I don't know where that comes into the picture here.

Yes they will likely be used by the weaker party losing the war. Let's not second guess who that is likely to be if such an unfortunate event happens.

It would be best to understand that the gap has only increased from 1971 and is increasing with every passing day.

The unfortunate part is that the other nation is not likely to wait to be attacked with the N weapons first (NFU or no NFU). If India really feels that Pakistan is going to use the weapons, what do you think it will do? And I will suggest you read up some basics of Nuclear warfare to see that its not what we think and does not play out the way we would think.

So any war needs to be avoided by all sensible people on both sides.

This isnt black mailing, its a depiction of what will happen if things go down this low. You are not realizing how sensitive this issue really is for us and i dont want to waste my time in trying to put it though you, only thing that you do need to understand however is that if water gets cut off, Pakistan dies and if we have to die this way, dont think we will go down quitely.

The issue is serious and I think all misunderstandings need to be removed from the equation. You are one sided in determining what India can or can't do under the treaty.

India has full rights for run of the river projects which it will exercise. Any genuine Pakisatni concerns need to be addressed. Any bluffs and threats (like you do in case of Afghanistan where you question the very Indian presence) need to be dealt with the contempt it deserves.

 

[Vinod2070]

Did I? By the way what India is doing currently under the leader ship of singh represents the typical bunnia minded thinking. Quaid-e-Azam or his family wasnt drying any one out.

Unless I see some neutral source that this is what is happening and deliberately at that, its difficult to believe it.

I don't think India is doing anything that you are suggesting. Else why won't your country take it to all the international fora?

Why won't it be a top international news story? I think some people on the forums are getting overly excited.

A storm in a tea-cup.

 

[kingfisher99]

Violation of Indus Waters Treaty
By MOHAMMAD JAMIL October 27, 2008

Despite the commitment Indian PM Manmohan Singh made with President Zardari on the sidelines of the UN, India continues stoppage of Chenab River water in violation of the Indus Waters Treaty. President Zardari had to tell India to honour the international water-sharing agreements and warned that the violation of the treaty would damage Indo-Pak relations. Meanwhile, Indus Water Commissioner Jamaat Ali Shah said that Pakistan would be compelled to seek the intervention of neutral experts if blatant violations of Sindh-Tass Treaty continue by the Indians. According to the Indus Water Treaty, India could fill Baglihar Dam before August 31, but it is mandatory for India to ensure 55,000-cusec inflow of water at Marala Barrage. In 1978, India had filled Salal Dam by stopping Pakistan's water share and later released the same quantity of water as compensation from Sutlaj River.
There are no two opinions that Pakistan should have good relations with all its neighbours, but not sacrificing or foregoing its rights. Unfortunately, India has never reciprocated the flexibility and good gestures from Pakistan. Despite three wars with India, Zardari said, "India has never been a threat to Pakistan" which is travesty of the truth, as since Pakistan came into being India did not let any opportunity go to destabilise it one way or another. Interestingly, Zardari's statement came at the time when the farmers in Pakistan were enraged on the failure of their crops as a result of the stoppage of Chenab's water by India. Elsewhere, such violation could have been considered as an act of war.
The fact of the matter is that on April 1, 1948, India had stemmed the flow of tributaries to Pakistan and discontinued water to the Dipalpur canal and main branches of Upper Bari Doab Canal. Pakistan wanted an equitable allocation of the flow of Indus River and its tributaries between India and Pakistan. Negotiations had started from 1951, and the treaty was signed in 1960 that gave Pakistan the right to receive unrestricted flow of the western rivers. And it was obligatory on the part of India to allow the flow of water unimpeded with minor exceptions. It was provided in the treaty that in case of a dispute, the World Bank would appoint a 'neutral expert' whose decision would be final. Since India had persistently shrugged off Pakistan's reservations about the project, Pakistan had no choice but to refer the matter to the World Bank.
Pakistan had termed the decision of the World Bank's neutral expert as a 'great victory', whereas India claimed a 'moral victory' on its dispute with Pakistan over the Baglihar Dam on Chenab River in Jammu and Kashmir, as according to the neutral expert the dam could be completed with slight modifications. Anyhow, the present critical situation emerged due to Pakistan's failure to make large reservoirs with the result that Pakistan is facing acute shortage of water, which has bee compounded by India's river-diversion plan.
With the growing population and declining water availability, food security can prove a major issue, which could have undesirable effects on the region and lead to water wars. There is a perception that India is consciously working on a plan to turn Pakistan into a desert and also to create rift between the federation and federating units of Pakistan. In chapter Sindh of "Pakistan's Provinces" published in 2004 by Strategic Foresight Group Publications of India, authors presaged: "If Sindh continues to suffer economic deterioration and water shortages, internal turmoil is inevitable...The influx of Sindh refugees can bring India into direct confrontation with Pakistan...Independent Sindh might be born..." Such analysis is based on dishonesty and malice and smacks of sinister designs against Pakistan. India's animosity and hatred against Pakistan is deep-seated, as it has not mentally accepted the reality of Pakistan and is based on religious prejudice and antagonism.
The nations endowed with capable leadership and foresight plan 50 to 100 years ahead so that they do not have to depend on others to meet their requirements for raw materials and energy needs. In Pakistan when Mangla and Tarbela Dams were constructed it was known that such dams have certain life, as the accumulation of silt over the years would reduce the capacity of the reservoir substantially. Pakistan had planned construction of Kalabagh Dam in 1970s, but Sindh and NWFP had expressed certain apprehensions, which were addressed fully by WAPDA at different forums. The project had also been reviewed by a Chinese expert and, also by an international panel of experts headed by Dr Kennedy of USA who was nominated by NWFP. To assuage the fears of NWFP, the height of the Dam has been reduced to 915 ft whereas the area is 1000 ft above the sea level as such there is not even the remote possibility of Nowshera being inundated.
Sindh province had also expressed concern that Sindh will be converted into a desert with the construction of Kalabagh Dam; Kotri Barrage's lower areas will suffer due to lack of potable water, and will also adversely reflect on fish farming. It has to be understood that Kalabagh Dam or any other dam will not itself consume water but will store water during floods, and would ensure flow throughout the year. In fact, more water will be available due to constant supply to the canals and the existing shortages will end. Anyhow, if Kalabagh was to be abandoned for the sake of national unity, then why some other dam was not constructed, and after three decades, only previous government had announced construction of Bhasha Dam in 2007 with great fanfare but no progress seemed to have been made in this regard. It is indeed criminal negligence and all the governments from 1977 to-date are responsible for their failure to create consensus on the construction of a large reservoir.
The writer is a freelance columnist

 

[IceCold]

I never said that nuclear weapons is not an option. I don't know where that comes into the picture here.

Yes they will likely be used by the weaker party losing the war. Let's not second guess who that is likely to be if such an unfortunate event happens.

And why not? Like i always say, India hasnt reached the world power status where it could just push Pakistan to a side wall without getting it self drive along.

It would be best to understand that the gap has only increased from 1971 and is increasing with every passing day.

No actually in the mid 80s we were better. Forgot the F-16s so soon. By the way 71 or not 71, Pakistan also isnt the same as it was back then seperated by thousands of miles of hosite territory.

The unfortunate part is that the other nation is not likely to wait to be attacked with the N weapons first (NFU or no NFU). If India really feels that Pakistan is going to use the weapons, what do you think it will do? And I will suggest you read up some basics of Nuclear warfare to see that its not what we think and does not play out the way we would think.

I understand it very clearly and that is why i asked you to stop thinking and India will restrict to no first use of nuclear weapons. The threat remains the same for both parties and that is eaxctly why i said that due to this fear, Intl community will intervene not that i am putting any faith into that.

So any war needs to be avoided by all sensible people on both sides.

Talk about being sensible.

The issue is serious and I think all misunderstandings need to be removed from the equation. You are one sided in determining what India can or can't do under the treaty.

Not really, i am not doing it one sided nor do i intend to and it doesnt matter either. However what does matter is that water of Pakistan is cut short and that never happened before, only this time which means that we will suffer heavy loss for our crops and all because of India, my point is that we are already suffering food shortage, water factor will just add to it, and serious we have no plans in turning into Somalia, so if India is hell bent in turning us one, then we have no problem to take India with us whatever the cost maybe then.

India has full rights for run of the river projects which it will exercise. Any genuine Pakisatni concerns need to be addressed. Any bluffs and threats (like you do in case of Afghanistan where you question the very Indian presence) need to be dealt with the contempt it deserves.

Yes but in the light of that treaty. That is why treaties are made at the first place so that both parties stick to it. But what if one party tries to act smart, that is where conflicts arise, and surely one is arising in the Sub continent.

 

[Vinod2070]

And why not? Like i always say, India hasnt reached the world power status where it could just push Pakistan to a side wall without getting it self drive along.

No actually in the mid 80s we were better. Forgot the F-16s so soon. By the way 71 or not 71, Pakistan also isnt the same as it was back then seperated by thousands of miles of hosite territory.

India may not have reached the world power status and yes Pakistan is no push-over. But that doesn't mean that we need to spoil for war.

War is dirty business. I think your troops performance in the battles against the Taliban has already shattered some cherished myths.

Now is not mid 80s. India does have the superior quality and quantity at her disposal. Pakistan is a militarily strong country but what could you gain in a war with India that didn't happen in the earlier wars?

Do you think the conditions are more favorable for you now than in the previous wars? Care to explain, why?

You may cause grief to India now but is that reason enough to cause large scale grief to fellow Pakistanis!

I understand it very clearly and that is why i asked you to stop thinking and India will restrict to no first use of nuclear weapons. The threat remains the same for both parties and that is eaxctly why i said that due to this fear, Intl community will intervene not that i am putting any faith into that.

They well may intervene but do you think they can really push India?

Do you think that will help Pakistan's image of a responsible nuclear power that you want to project to be given the nuclear deal? What will a war achieve for you that diplomacy can't?

Not really, i am not doing it one sided nor do i intend to and it doesnt matter either. However what does matter is that water of Pakistan is cut short and that never happened before, only this time which means that we will suffer heavy loss for our crops and all because of India, my point is that we are already suffering food shortage, water factor will just add to it, and serious we have no plans in turning into Somalia, so if India is hell bent in turning us one, then we have no problem to take India with us whatever the cost maybe then.

Yes but in the light of that treaty. That is why treaties are made at the first place so that both parties stick to it. But what if one party tries to act smart, that is where conflicts arise, and surely one is arising in the Sub continent.

Well, I think that is putting the horse before the cart. Let's see if the facts support the claims that are being made here.

 

[IceCold]

India may not have reached the world power status and yes Pakistan is no push-over. But that doesn't mean that we need to spoil for war.

Sure, but what other options are left( for Pakistan that is)?

War is dirty business. I think your troops performance in the battles against the Taliban has already shattered some cherished myths.

What age are you living in? Go check out anynews and you will find how successful we have been lately. There were initial problems, but do understand that there is a hell of a difference in COIN(i hope u know what that is) against conventional warefare. By the way we certainly would love you(Indians, India) to keep having the same opinion about our military capabilites that according to you are close to zero as compared to India, that will just make it easy to gain our objective.

Now is not mid 80s. India does have the superior quality and quantity at her disposal. Pakistan is a militarily strong country but what could you gain in a war with India that didn't happen in the earlier wars?

Yes but since you quoted from 71, i wanted to correct a bit there. Also your quality advantage isnt over miles from Pakistan, we are still considered on the same par more or less.

Do you think the conditions are more favorable for you now than in the previous wars? Care to explain, why?

That was never the point. I already said whatever the out come maybe, there ant too many options left for Pakistan, if yes let me know. By the way what makes you so sure that what happened in 71 can be repeated again.

You may cause grief to India now but is that reason enough to cause large scale grief to fellow Pakistanis!

Grief will be more or less equal in this case as the fight isnt on some piece of land infact its on water and we know our survival depends upon that and failure isnt an option in our case.

They well may intervene but do you think they can really push India?

How far was India able to go in 2002 after the staged parliment attack? Also again you are already smelling victory, why do you think that it will be only Pakistan pushing for mid way, what if the case is opposite.

Do you think that will help Pakistan's image of a responsible nuclear power that you want to project to be given the nuclear deal? What will a war achieve for you that diplomacy can't?

Dont even bring the nuclear factor, it will be very evident from the point of conflict that both nations are nuclear armed and any miscalculation can lead to an all out nuclear confrontation and that in manner means that only Pakistan is bringing Nuclear card to the equation and not just India. Like you said India wont wait either, so how exactly will Pakistan be only responsible and not the other way round.

Dont you think diplomacy is already going on. Everytime we hear singh sb making commitment( US and then in China) that we will work according to the spirt of the treaty and according to every word written in it and the very next day we find out that the flow of water has been reduced. Where do you think we are going with that and how far will we go?

Well, I think that is putting the horse before the cart. Let's see if the facts support the claims that are being made here.

Fact is that water is being reduced and our crops are suffering, fact is that despite of Indian PM assurance, water level is still dropping. What more do you think we should really wait for? Ahh yes new elections in Pakistan, so that a better and more committed government can be formed who could stand up to the occasion and raise Pakistans objections properly and more aggressively at all international forums and then if nothing else happens, then can do what is necessary in the interest of the country.

 

[Vinod2070]

Cool, whatever makes you happy.

May be you can explain me what COIN is. Is it something related to what the Indian army has been doing since 2 decades and more in Kashmir?

I see that you actually think that you can gain some unspecified "objectives" that you can gain in a war. Sure, go for it.

I don't doubt the professionalism of the Pak forces, just put it in perspective. You know the 1:10 theory that many people have!

Your case seems to be that just because you can cause some grief to India, its acceptable for Pakistanis to be grieved. Unbeatable logic that!

Remember its you who is advocating war, not me.

You think this government can't do a good job of raising the issue internationally, so war is the option, great! That will solve all the problems including Kashmir, right?

I think Kalabagh dam is a major reason for your water problems. Why don't you take that up on war footing too? Is it just too easy to think of war with India which is mostly suicidal in the presence of N. weapons.

 

[IceCold]

Cool, whatever makes you happy.

May be you can explain me what COIN is. Is it something related to what the Indian army has been doing since 2 decades and more in Kashmir?

I think i'll rather pass it. SInce if you cant understand a simple fact, how even the best armies and ones with most superior technology gets a beating(US), putting that into perspective, Criticizing PA capabilities and calling it a myth is somthing beyond understanding. Maybe you could add more to it. What Indian army is doing is an altogether different matter which in no matter is related to what we are discussing here.

I see that you actually think that you can gain some unspecified "objectives" that you can gain in a war. Sure, go for it.

Again there are no unspecificed objectives, maybe to you but for us just one, and that is to stop India from bullying us through water.

I don't doubt the professionalism of the Pak forces, just put it in perspective. You know the 1:10 theory that many people have!

Really, doesnt suit you saying, since you were already singing the victory songs by saying "let us not second guess it". 1:10 theory? You mean one pakistani is equal to 10 indians or the other way round?

Your case seems to be that just because you can cause some grief to India, its acceptable for Pakistanis to be grieved. Unbeatable logic that!

Not really, infact you are putting words into my mouth. War causes grief, stopping water makes it even worse, but then again as i said is earlier what options are we left with?
By the way you chose to ignore some facts that i put it there for you in the last post about your PM's commitments with his Pakistani counterpart that he made both in USA and then China.

Remember its you who is advocating war, not me.

I am not advocating war, i just said we are running out of options.

You think this government can't do a good job of raising the issue internationally, so war is the option, great! That will solve all the problems including Kashmir, right?

Dont even bring Kashmir in. We are not even discussing it here. The problem is with the water being stopped.

I think Kalabagh dam is a major reason for your water problems. Why don't you take that up on war footing too? Is it just too easy to think of war with India which is mostly suicidal in the presence of N. weapons.

Kalabagh is also an issue, no one is denying that either, but that is our personal matter, Water that is coming under the indus treaty is another. Right now that water is being cut short because India is filling up the dams, what should we do, run dry?