Vixen-1000E AESA with IRST showcased at IDEAS

[maximuswarrior]

Reading all this stuff, no matter what, I'm glad we have the JF-17.

 

[CriticalThought]

Reading all this stuff, no matter what, I'm glad we have the JF-17.

We still need to worry about things such as EM shielding. Basically, microwaves can be employed to fry any electronic circuits and the way to protect against that is effective shielding. We need to think about electronic security from the grounds up and build the aircraft around it. The JF-17 is the gift of Allah Almighty, but it definitely needs more work to make it secure.

 

[maximuswarrior]

We still need to worry about things such as EM shielding. Basically, microwaves can be employed to fry any electronic circuits and the way to protect against that is effective shielding. We need to think about electronic security from the grounds up and build the aircraft around it. The JF-17 is the gift of Allah Almighty, but it definitely needs more work to make it secure.

Absolutely. The beauty of JF-17 is that it is our aircraft and we can shape it however we want. Sure, we need to improve and tweak the aircraft for all the reasons you have given, but we can do that without any constraints.

The F-16 is a gem, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

 

[araz]

This whole debate revolves around 2 things.
A. If the kill swiches exist then was PAF high ups not aware of this when they bought the items from US.
2. IF we believe in kill switches do we not expect it to be the case with all products procured from outside.
Regarding the first part I would give the benefit of the doubt to the PAF officers. They know better what is what and should be believed. As to whether ANY kill switches can be engaged in an Indo Pak scenario by the US to help India. This is a fallacy of the highest order. IF they did there reputation will go down ghe drain and NO ONE will ever buy US products from them. From the Pak perspective it means immediate utilization of NUKES and MAD as there will then be no assurance of any hardware procured from US being free of kill switches.
Regarding the second part we need to then not be buying anything from any vendor outside of Pakistan because it cedes control to them. This is a very paranoid way of thinking.
My own thinking is that there maybe controls put in place that US armaments may not be used against them or NATO. PAF was very aware of this and according to aRetd Air Commodore we have the means to counter these and he told me a few measures that are taken. However these are nog for open forum and not for anyone. I think one would be wise to listen to people like @Bilal Khan 777 and @Oscar who have experience of such things. We have a wonderfuul post by @gambit on this subject that explains what measures are taken in the guise of the so called" Kill switches". People need to search for and read his post which is a real gem rather than listening to hear say.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

This whole debate revolves around 2 things.
A. If the kill swiches exist then was PAF high ups not aware of this when they bought the items from US.
2. IF we believe in kill switches do we not expect it to be the case with all products procured from outside.
Regarding the first part I would give the benefit of the doubt to the PAF officers. They know better what is what and should be believed. As to whether ANY kill switches can be engaged in an Indo Pak scenario by the US to help India. This is a fallacy of the highest order. IF they did there reputation will go down ghe drain and NO ONE will ever buy US products from them. From the Pak perspective it means immediate utilization of NUKES and MAD as there will then be no assurance of any hardware procured from US being free of kill switches.
Regarding the second part we need to then not be buying anything from any vendor outside of Pakistan because it cedes control to them. This is a very paranoid way of thinking.
My own thinking is that there maybe controls put in place that US armaments may not be used against them or NATO. PAF was very aware of this and according to aRetd Air Commodore we have the means to counter these and he told me a few measures that are taken. However these are nog for open forum and not for anyone. I think one would be wise to listen to people like @Bilal Khan 777 and @Oscar who have experience of such things. We have a wonderfuul post by @gambit on this subject that explains what measures are taken in the guise of the so called" Kill switches". People need to search for and read his post which is a real gem rather than listening to hear say.
A

Sir, when it comes to national security, no amount of paranoia is enough paranoia. We need to look at this from the perspective of American planners:

1. Is Pakistan a country with which the US could go to war in the future? Yes. Absolutely. Why would America provide weapons systems like F-16 that can be potentially used against it, or at least complicate the fight?

2. There is a high probability that a future India/Pak war will not be localized. India is America's proxy in the region and the NaMo government has shown through its recent aggressive posturing, it is a willing baton for America. Add to this the fact that full production of F-16 in India is on the cards. They are talking about shifting the whole production line. We need to operate on the assumption that India will be intimately aware of any loopholes/backdoors/killswitches in place. I fully expect NaMo's government to jump at this opportunity. I am even surprised by the recent lack of news on this front. It makes every logical sense they will be pursuing this deal behind the scenes.

3. The killswitch isn't a button on the aircraft, or a fuse that says 'Critical'. The effects of a well placed killswitch will look like a technical glitch. And if this admittedly hypothetical 'killswitch' comes into play, then possibly both Pakistan and China will cease to be any meaningful threat. In such a world, what options would the gulf countries have but to keep buying from America? It would actually reinforce American supremacy: we are the only shop around, and what we give, we can as easily take back so you better behave. This is an extreme scenario, but where the security of a whole country is involved, where your very existence is at stake, you need to give attention to extreme scenarios as well.

The answer isn't to completely give up on the F-16. The answer is to prepare oneself for all eventualities. The worst thing we can do is lull ourselves into a sense of false security instead of actively taking steps towards mitigating risks.

The fact of the matter is, if tomorrow the entire production line of the F-16 shifts to India, we will be having a VERY different conversation.

Finally, once our next gen aircraft plans mature, we really wouldn't have any need for F-16s. That would be the day when Uncle Sam realizes it has lost a lot of leverage over Pakistan. It is a day which Uncle would go to extremes to avoid. We need to be wary and alert.

 

[araz]

Sir, when it comes to national security, no amount of paranoia is enough paranoia. We need to look at this from the perspective of American planners:

1. Is Pakistan a country with which the US could go to war in the future? Yes. Absolutely. Why would America provide weapons systems like F-16 that can be potentially used against it, or at least complicate the fight?

2. There is a high probability that a future India/Pak war will not be localized. India is America's proxy in the region and the NaMo government has shown through its recent aggressive posturing, it is a willing baton for America. Add to this the fact that full production of F-16 in India is on the cards. They are talking about shifting the whole production line. We need to operate on the assumption that India will be intimately aware of any loopholes/backdoors/killswitches in place. I fully expect NaMo's government to jump at this opportunity. I am even surprised by the recent lack of news on this front. It makes every logical sense they will be pursuing this deal behind the scenes.

3. The killswitch isn't a button on the aircraft, or a fuse that says 'Critical'. The effects of a well placed killswitch will look like a technical glitch. And if this admittedly hypothetical 'killswitch' comes into play, then possibly both Pakistan and China will cease to be any meaningful threat. In such a world, what options would the gulf countries have but to keep buying from America? It would actually reinforce American supremacy: we are the only shop around, and what we give, we can as easily take back so you better behave. This is an extreme scenario, but where the security of a whole country is involved, where your very existence is at stake, you need to give attention to extreme scenarios as well.

The answer isn't to completely give up on the F-16. The answer is to prepare oneself for all eventualities. The worst thing we can do is lull ourselves into a sense of false security instead of actively taking steps towards mitigating risks.

The fact of the matter is, if tomorrow the entire production line of the F-16 shifts to India, we will be having a VERY different conversation.

Finally, once our next gen aircraft plans mature, we really wouldn't have any need for F-16s. That would be the day when Uncle Sam realizes it has lost a lot of leverage over Pakistan. It is a day which Uncle would go to extremes to avoid. We need to be wary and alert.

Bhai.
Think of it from the PAF perspective. Please dont take this as an insult on you personally but, Are you the only one thinking of the defence of Pakistan? Are the rest of the PAF planners busy smoking weed or whatever that they dont care whether they live or die in this defective hardware?
There are people who live and breath technological assesments of fighter planes. Yes there is corruption galore but the reports are very honestly and thoroughly compiled. Do you think no one has picked up on this aspect?
I have already mentioned the protective measures US takes to prevent its arms being used against us. To be fair with or without the 16s you will not last 2-3 days with your current air force against US and that too is an exaggeration. No power on earth can fight the US juggernaut. However this is not the point.
As to a US - India alliance and use of Indian forces for persuance of US agenda wars are fought for own national interests. India would be foolish to fight a US instigated war so please do not insult the intelligence of the Indian polity. They are much more smarter than that. Milking the US trade cow is one thing fighting for them is another. So if there is a war in the Sub continent it will be for safeguarding of Indian and Pakistani interests not for anyone else.
You can live in a state of paranoia or have some faith in Allah and secondly in the armed forces who look after their own arses as much as they look after the country as they will face the brunt of any aggression on the country. Once again please take my post in its context and not on a personal level.
Regards
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Bhai.
Think of it from the PAF perspective. Please dont take this as an insult on you personally but, Are you the only one thinking of the defence of Pakistan? Are the rest of the PAF planners busy smoking weed or whatever that they dont care whether they live or die in this defective hardware?
There are people who live and breath technological assesments of fighter planes. Yes there is corruption galore but the reports are very honestly and thoroughly compiled. Do you think no one has picked up on this aspect?
I have already mentioned the protective measures US takes to prevent its arms being used against us. To be fair with or without the 16s you will not last 2-3 days with your current air force against US and that too is an exaggeration. No power on earth can fight the US juggernaut. However this is not the point.
As to a US - India alliance and use of Indian forces for persuance of US agenda wars are fought for own national interests. India would be foolish to fight a US instigated war so please do not insult the intelligence of the Indian polity. They are much more smarter than that. Milking the US trade cow is one thing fighting for them is another. So if there is a war in the Sub continent it will be for safeguarding of Indian and Pakistani interests not for anyone else.
You can live in a state of paranoia or have some faith in Allah and secondly in the armed forces who look after their own arses as much as they look after the country as they will face the brunt of any aggression on the country. Once again please take my post in its context and not on a personal level.
Regards
A

I think me and you are mostly in agreement and saying the same things. The only unresolved question after your post is the shifting of F-16 production line to India. To ask the same question differently, would Pakistan buy F-16s from India? If India gains full knowledge of its working, would the PAF still use F-16 in a battle against it?

Let's wait and watch how this production line situation develops. Obviously PAF's strategy will evolve along with the situation.

 

[Basel]

@waz @Horus @Oscar is this F-16 thread??? Even mods are involved in off topic posts. Please clean the thread with off topic posts.

 

[araz]

I think me and you are mostly in agreement and saying the same things. The only unresolved question after your post is the shifting of F-16 production line to India. To ask the same question differently, would Pakistan buy F-16s from India? If India gains full knowledge of its working, would the PAF still use F-16 in a battle against it?

Let's wait and watch how this production line situation develops. Obviously PAF's strategy will evolve along with the situation.

India is going to turn into a production hub for the west. It offers cheaper labour and good quality reliable work force. Whether they buy the 16s or not remains to be seen.
It is even more prudent that we step up our own individual steps to grow our indegenous fighter programme. Homegrown technology will have a lot more advantages as the PAF is beginning to realize. Instead of buying fighters with restrictions on what you can or cannot put on it, the sky is the limit on your own product. I personally dont see PAF moving away from this path.
The 16s are at their last in PAF. The production line if it gets shifted to India will mean the end of any further acquisitions barring space fillers like the 16s from Jordan for parts and replacement. In many ways it highlights how forces get hooked to one vendor. You buy their product and you are married to them for 3 decades or so. Commonality dictates that you keep buying more upgraded products.
But very sadly this is probably the last purchase from the US fOr PAF.
A

 

[!eon]

Easy to say such things when you don't work with encryption.

Nope, not easy at all. Encryption and decryption are continues development cycles.

 

[Bratva]

Easy to say such things when you don't work with encryption.

Your statement makes sense if Pakistan is using their own flavor of encryption standards which take times to decrypt, A day or two which makes information useless by then in todays environment . If PAF is using AES standards or the encryption based on AES (Symmetric encryption protocols) , then it is much easier for America to decrypt the whole communication stream in real time. Minimum within minutes, Maximum it would take an hour for them

I dont know the Speed or Bandwidth requirements of Link-17 But if I have to take a guess, It is same as that of Link-16. I Mbps speed. Which means The Downlink/Uplink Speeds would be 100 Kbps/50-60 Kbps. With such bandwith, adding a heavy encryption on top would be meaningless. It will slowdown the entire communication network. So A medium encryption to not to boggle down or throttle the communication network will be a piece of cake for NSA/associated agencies to break down within 24 hours.

If Symmetric encryption protocols gets broken, It is impossible to fix that protocol with band aids unless we replace the entrie protocol suit

Nope, not easy at all. Encryption and decryption are continues development cycles.

Actually it is much easier for America because almost all the Symmetric or Asymmetric encryption standards and protocols were developed in America. In the labs of NSA/NIST or they invited computer scientists to create new cipher suits via public competitions . They know the ins and outs of their protocols. The strengths and weaknesses in the Algorithms. So in context of Pakistan unless Pakistan knows the ins and outs of encryption protocols and know how to mitigate such threats that the creator of protocol can not compromise Pakistan Encryption, We can not say for sure, Despite encrypting sensitive information, Pakistan is 100 percent save from Ameircan efforts of decrypting their communications in real time (witnin minutes and hours bracket)

 

[mdcp]

When we were looking for nice radars europeans and Americans did not gave us now when we have klja7 they offerred vixen.

I think once we decided for self reliance than we should focus on that

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

India is going to turn into a production hub for the west. It offers cheaper labour and good quality reliable work force. Whether they buy the 16s or not remains to be seen.
It is even more prudent that we step up our own individual steps to grow our indegenous fighter programme. Homegrown technology will have a lot more advantages as the PAF is beginning to realize. Instead of buying fighters with restrictions on what you can or cannot put on it, the sky is the limit on your own product. I personally dont see PAF moving away from this path.
The 16s are at their last in PAF. The production line if it gets shifted to India will mean the end of any further acquisitions barring space fillers like the 16s from Jordan for parts and replacement. In many ways it highlights how forces get hooked to one vendor. You buy their product and you are married to them for 3 decades or so. Commonality dictates that you keep buying more upgraded products.
But very sadly this is probably the last purchase from the US fOr PAF.
A

In future, there will come a day in your generation and India and Pakistan will not be adversaries, and be under the same defence umbrella.

 

[v9s]

People have forgotten:

 

[araz]

In future, there will come a day in your generation and India and Pakistan will not be adversaries, and be under the same defence umbrella.

I have heard this one being said before and once the Kashmir issue gets resolved we can easily move on. Foreign threat from outside sources may yet bring that day closer and much sooner.
However till that day we have to protect ourselves and for that indegenous endeavours are pivotal.
A