VIEW: Success lies in secularism —Dr Irfan Zafar

[Janubaba]

and where ever you go, death and destruction will follow, idiot

Sir your country has killed thousands in Kashmir and Gujrat so you should no talk about death where ever Muslims have went humanity has won

 

[Mughal1]

1. Believing everything written in the Quran and supporting it is the very definition of having faith in it.
2. To your Islam is a deen point. The rules were applicable for medieval times. It was applicable to government systems in those times. For those who believe in following the deen, secularism does not prevent you from doing so.

For the rest of your lengthy post, the replies would lie in posts #212 and #216.

Dear vibs, this is not about what I believe but what i claim about my understanding of islam and I am putting forth the evidence for it. That is how you judge a case ie a claim is raised and supporting evidence is given and it is cross examined to see if there is anything wrong with it. If yes you raise your objection otherwise that is it. You can't just argue with the claimant that you just believe so because you made the claim.

You are talking about a laws made in the name of islam serving the purpose of kings. I explained that they were wrong interpretation of the quran because they deliberately ignored the rules whereby they ought to interpret the allegedly divine statement. If they were wrong they were wrong and that can be proven even today by examining the quran and what they thought the quran meant because we have all the concerned information at hand.

You are not making any arguments against the quran but just using muslims' understanding of the quran as standard and I am clearly proving that wrong. It is because the truth is decided by evidence not by irrelevant numbers. For example if evidence proves the bible wrong then no matter how many people claim it is right, the wrong does not become right. Likewise if the quran could be proven wrong then it matters not how many muslims claim it is right, it will not make it right.

Believing something because of evidence is not wrong. Believing something against the evidence is wrong.

regards and all the best.

 

[ashokdeiva]

Sir your country has killed thousands in Kashmir and Gujrat so you should no talk about death where ever Muslims have went humanity has won

um hum, what about the Pandit race that you wiped out of the face of Kashmir. what about the OBL hidding or has been hidden by your Islamic friends in your country, and how about the endless rage that was brought upon by your Mugal Kings on India, what qualities do you pocess to question, look at the face of history and what your forefathers did and then you can lecture me on Kashmir.
The Indian side of Kashmir is seeing unprecedented development where as your piece of Kashmir does not even have a proper medical facility

 

[Vibs]

Dear vibs, this is not about what I believe but what i claim about my understanding of islam and I am putting forth the evidence for it. That is how you judge a case ie a claim is raised and supporting evidence is given and it is cross examined to see if there is anything wrong with it. If yes you raise your objection otherwise that is it. You can't just argue with the claimant that you just believe so because you made the claim.

You are talking about a laws made in the name of islam serving the purpose of kings. I explained that they were wrong interpretation of the quran because they deliberately ignored the rules whereby they ought to interpret the allegedly divine statement. If they were wrong they were wrong and that can be proven even today by examining the quran and what they thought the quran meant because we have all the concerned information at hand.

You are not making any arguments against the quran but just using muslims' understanding of the quran as standard and I am clearly proving that wrong. It is because the truth is decided by evidence not by irrelevant numbers. For example if evidence proves the bible wrong then no matter how many people claim it is right, the wrong does not become right. Likewise if the quran could be proven wrong then it matters not how many muslims claim it is right, it will not make it right.

Believing something because of evidence is not wrong. Believing something against the evidence is wrong.

regards and all the best.

Ok.Maybe I got lost in your post (honestly they are quite lengthy). But if you put forth a system purely based on the deen you talk about, there is a very high chance that someone in power (there will always be someone in power) will misuse/misunderstand the meaning of the rules. That subsequently will bring disrepute to not only the nation but also the religion.
Perhaps in an ideal world what you ask to be practically applied would be possible in a non-corrupted way. In the world we live in, a secular atmosphere would allow you to practice your deen without allowing those in power to manipulate it. Evidence can be seen within some questionable practices within Pakistan as a reference,most notable being the translation of blasphemy, the laws against rape and the recent jihad against mujahirs in Karachi.

 

[Janubaba]

Ok.Maybe I got lost in your post (honestly they are quite lengthy). But if you put forth a system purely based on the deen you talk about, there is a very high chance that someone in power (there will always be someone in power) will misuse/misunderstand the meaning of the rules. That subsequently will bring disrepute to not only the nation but also the religion.
Perhaps in an ideal world what you ask to be practically applied would be possible in a non-corrupted way. In the world we live in, a secular atmosphere would allow you to practice your deen without allowing those in power to manipulate it. Evidence can be seen within some questionable practices within Pakistan as a reference,most notable being the translation of blasphemy, the laws against rape and the recent jihad against mujahirs in Karachi.

Sir our ruler will have many powers but still shurah which is our parliament full of those people with great knowledge of Islam will stop its misuse

 

[Mughal1]

This is your Religious belief, and you can not say that the evolution of Human being as believed by the rest of the religion is flawed. God has different names in different religion and in Islam its Allha and in Cristianity its Crist and in Hinduism everything beautiful & peaceful is God.
So please do not refer that Allha created Universe, you can instead say that "As per your religious belief or as your fore fathers told you Allha created Universe"



And don't you feel that you have sined when you eat meat of an animal. If Quran says that you have to take care of animals, how is Mulims eat meat.


This is what is called as co-existance and we need to let live other to live our lives. some like Janubaba are exceptions to this part

Dear ashokdeiva, we are not arguing over make beliefs but what is and is not based on evidence. Make belief divide us and certainties are likely to unite us. People cannot live peacefully while they are divided because then wars will continue as they have been so unity is inevitable but on what terms is something we can argue over and see if we can find anything better than suggested in the quran.

The problem with our world is that it is a sea-saw mechanism, so when one side does anything the other is automatically affected. Therefore unless we learn to live in a way that suits everyone we cannot live and let live in peace. How can I live in peace when you do things that disturb my peace? Therefore we are all forced by reason to work out something between us that works. If I have something that works and you ignore it and if you have it and I ignore it, is there any point in talking? This is why we all need to be sensible enough to see what other says but also open minded enough to accept whatever makes better sense or is based upon better evidence. otherwise we will be missing opportunity after opportunity.

regards and all the best

 

[Vibs]

Sir our ruler will have many powers but still shurah which is our parliament full of those people with great knowledge of Islam will stop its misuse

My arguments are lost on you.

Dear ashokdeiva, we are not arguing over make beliefs but what is and is not based on evidence. Make belief divide us and certainties are likely to unite us. People cannot live peacefully while they are divided because then wars will continue as they have been so unity is inevitable but on what terms is something we can argue over and see if we can find anything better than suggested in the quran.

The problem with our world is that it is a sea-saw mechanism, so when one side does anything the other is automatically affected. Therefore unless we learn to live in a way that suits everyone we cannot live and let live in peace. How can I live in peace when you do things that disturb my peace? Therefore we are all forced by reason to work out something between us that works. If I have something that works and you ignore it and if you have it and I ignore it, is there any point in talking? This is why we all need to be sensible enough to see what other says but also open minded enough to accept whatever makes better sense or is based upon better evidence. otherwise we will be missing opportunity after opportunity.

regards and all the best

Balanced post. The tone of it sort of supported secularism somewhere in there.

 

[ashokdeiva]

Dear ashokdeiva, we are not arguing over make beliefs but what is and is not based on evidence. Make belief divide us and certainties are likely to unite us. People cannot live peacefully while they are divided because then wars will continue as they have been so unity is inevitable but on what terms is something we can argue over and see if we can find anything better than suggested in the quran.

The problem with our world is that it is a sea-saw mechanism, so when one side does anything the other is automatically affected. Therefore unless we learn to live in a way that suits everyone we cannot live and let live in peace. How can I live in peace when you do things that disturb my peace? Therefore we are all forced by reason to work out something between us that works. If I have something that works and you ignore it and if you have it and I ignore it, is there any point in talking? This is why we all need to be sensible enough to see what other says but also open minded enough to accept whatever makes better sense or is based upon better evidence. otherwise we will be missing opportunity after opportunity.

regards and all the best

And do you think that this indeference can be removed by implementing the one Religion all over the world? I serviously doubt that, if we can not ignore and live as you say. how about take a scenario where all have become muslims and I love a girl whom you too love, will this not result in a strugle between us to win her that might also end up in violance even we both believe in the same religion.
As long as humans exist there will always be a mental friction on what the next guy does, so measure the damage that he does to you, if its not going to have a significant effect on your way of life, just ignore and move on. if it affects you take counter measures that you alone know how best to implement.

so please do not endores people like Janubaba on going on a rampage with the satement that the one religion rule will be implemented and those who do not belive in that system will endup badly

 

[Mughal1]

And do you think that this indeference can be removed by implementing the one Religion all over the world? I serviously doubt that, if we can not ignore and live as you say. how about take a scenario where all have become muslims and I love a girl whom you too love, will this not result in a strugle between us to win her that might also end up in violance even we both believe in the same religion.
As long as humans exist there will always be a mental friction on what the next guy does, so measure the damage that he does to you, if its not going to have a significant effect on your way of life, just ignore and move on. if it affects you take counter measures that you alone know how best to implement.

so please do not endores people like Janubaba on going on a rampage with the satement that the one religion rule will be implemented and those who do not belive in that system will endup badly

Dear ashokdeiva, religious beliefs are not something we are born with but they are just ideas that we learn from our cultures we are born in like languages we speak. That means we can correct these ideas if we could realise where they are wrong. This is how humanity has been moving forward and that is why we have human right today as part of international agreement. So there is hope that one day improvements in our education will set us free from all the nonsense and we will become united because we will start living for the good of others, caring and sharing. If we can die for each other why can't we given up our desires? If gradually our environment keeps on improving we would end up with a society that is at ease within itself. That is islam.=peace within and peace all around. Islam is not about enforcement but education and realisation. When people are ill it is they who come to the doctor but doctor must also advertise so that they know where they will find him when they need him.

We all influence each other some negatively others positively, one day balance may tip towards betterment of humanity.

regards and all the best.

 

[DV RULES]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Just a few days before the creation of Pakistan, while inaugurating the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947, Jinnah spoke of an inclusive and pluralist democracy promising equal rights for all citizens regardless of their religion, caste or creed

My signatures are perfect answer to whole of this article which starts from Jinnah's quote and my signature also quote of Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

Most people seem to suffer from a preconceived, inherent repulsion to the idea of secularism, equating it with atheism, anarchy, anti-religious or, more importantly, anti-Islamic concept. What do we really mean by a ‘secular’ Pakistan? We mean a nation that neither supports nor opposes any religion, where all citizens, regardless of their faith, are respected and treated as equal. It defines a state in which the faith of citizens becomes irrelevant for the will of the majority reigns supreme. Pakistan was conceived as a country where every citizen will live in harmony while practising their individual faiths without interfering in the beliefs of others. Pakistan equally belongs to the Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, atheists and all other minorities living in it. We are all Pakistanis first. Going by this definition, it is all the more clear that Islam carries within itself the inherent attributes of a secular code of conduct, forming the very foundation of the Islamic beliefs.

Retarded source of these words couldn't give an example of a practical secular state. India itself called as Secular state but looking into Indian parliament, ministries, government establishment & in social sector, what kind of equality they can provide to all religions? This kind of stupid article only can come from Dr Irfan Zafar.

The inherent secular nature of Islam is evident from the following Quranic verses: “Had God willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as a keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them” (6:107) and “Do not revile those unto whom they pray beside God, lest they wrongfully revile God through ignorance” (6:108). Islam does not preach coercion of believers of other faiths as the Holy Quran says, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:256) and “(So) for you is your religion and for me is my religion” (109:6). According to Abu Dawood 3:170, the Prophet (PBUH) said, “Beware! If anyone dared oppress a member of minority community or usurped his right or tortured him more than his endurance or took something away forcibly without his consent, I would fight (against such Muslims) on his behalf on the Day of Judgment.” At another point the Prophet (PBUH) said, “Whoever killed a member of a minority community, he would not smell the fragrance of paradise though fragrance of paradise would cover the distance of forty years (of travelling)” (Ibne Rushd, Badiya-tul-Mujtahid, 2:299).

Hazrat Abu Bakar (ASW), Hazrat Umer (ASW), Hazrat Usman (ASW), Hazrat Ali (ASW), Hazrat Umer bin Abdul Aziz (ASW) and later Muslim empires
in Spain & Hind never said that Success lies in secularism, those Khulafa knows Islam better than us & different religions were at that time but in Islamic kingdom they possessed security and freedom according to Quranic Laws so what is now problem practicing same law when we have still Quran-e-pak in original form? Those who bring this terminology, couldn't apply it in their own society so why we should adopt in our society?

Bold part: Writer of this article is talking about conservatism but he forgot that conservatism injected from sources from he gave quotes.


Stupid article & illogical.

 

[Kevrai]

Sir your country has killed thousands in Kashmir and Gujrat so you should no talk about death where ever Muslims have went humanity has won

you got to be joking right

 

[ashokdeiva]

Dear ashokdeiva, religious beliefs are not something we are born with but they are just ideas that we learn from our cultures we are born in like languages we speak. That means we can correct these ideas if we could realise where they are wrong. This is how humanity has been moving forward and that is why we have human right today as part of international agreement. So there is hope that one day improvements in our education will set us free from all the nonsense and we will become united because we will start living for the good of others, caring and sharing. If we can die for each other why can't we given up our desires? If gradually our environment keeps on improving we would end up with a society that is at ease within itself. That is islam.=peace within and peace all around. Islam is not about enforcement but education and realisation. When people are ill it is they who come to the doctor but doctor must also advertise so that they know where they will find him when they need him.

We all influence each other some negatively others positively, one day balance may tip towards betterment of humanity.

regards and all the best.

I agree with you almost on all the words except that bold part, my argument is Islam == Hinduism == Christianity == Sikhism == Budhisim with just minor modification all teaching peace and prosperity, kindness and humblness. Yet one section does not accept the other but can atleast co-exist with out causing issue. I have to quote a personal example of mine where I have my fathers Collegue named Habeeb(Muslim) who invites me to Ramzan festival in his home and he comes to my home on Dipawali and Pongal. We both have different ideology but accept each other. Why is that most of the Muslims in the forum accept that is possible and they just want Islam to be taught to every one via any medium of choice. Sure Islam teaches Peace, but i feel from most of the posts that Islam does not teach tolerance for other religion. No where in my Holybook is said that if a Hindu wishes to follow some other religion, he should be awarded capital punishment unlike some claim that is the case with the Muslims.

 

[Mughal1]

I agree with you almost on all the words except that bold part, my argument is Islam == Hinduism == Christianity == Sikhism == Budhisim with just minor modification all teaching peace and prosperity, kindness and humblness. Yet one section does not accept the other but can atleast co-exist with out causing issue. I have to quote a personal example of mine where I have my fathers Collegue named Habeeb(Muslim) who invites me to Ramzan festival in his home and he comes to my home on Dipawali and Pongal. We both have different ideology but accept each other. Why is that most of the Muslims in the forum accept that is possible and they just want Islam to be taught to every one via any medium of choice. Sure Islam teaches Peace, but i feel from most of the posts that Islam does not teach tolerance for other religion. No where in my Holybook is said that if a Hindu wishes to follow some other religion, he should be awarded capital punishment unlike some claim that is the case with the Muslims.

Dear ashokdeiva, that was my point that all religions were originally divine rules of law till they were turned by rulers into meaningless concepts that have little or no effect on reality. They all taught peace but unfortunately the distortion succeeded as regard all other scriptures save the quran. Even the quran suffered a very bad attack interpretation wise but being intact it is possible to recover original interpretation from the quran which is not possible in case of other scriptures.

Let me ask us a question to help see the clear difference between the other scriptures and the quran therefore other religions and islam. Could you please define peace for me and explain the mechanism for achieving the peace you are talking about.

regards and all the best.

 

[American Pakistani]

Pakistan needs to implement & spread sufiesm, it's true culture & system that was before those dumbs who brought exteremism. I guess that was the system that Jinnah & Iqbal wants in Pakistan.

 

[t_for_talli]

Islamism was and never will be defeated because Islam is from the creator not from a pathetic human being that is why Islam is the fastest growing Religion in the world And Islamic system will be implemented in the whole world and all those who oppose it will find no place to hide

If Islam and its preaching are so great then its aura should attract people
But all we see is it is being imposed on others...u can see whole middle east blasphamey laws ,Saudi laws and all
Islam has the history of barbarism and blood shedding (for the sake of religion or spreading religion)
I m not expert in Abrahamic religion(Islam Christianity Judaism) but i can surely say that Dhrama religions(Hinduism, Buddhism,Jainism, Sikhism) never preached to impose own beliefs on to others .
If u want people to follow Islam just for the sake of numbers then i think ur doing injustice to Islam itself
I will quote an instance 'One of my friend told me He has read Quaran 3 times, and later I came to know he has read it in Arbi and he dosent understand Arbi(but knows how to read it), Again i cant comment about the people on the other side but in India Madarsa instructors emphasize on reading Quaran in Arabic'

Its your generation and its up to you how you portray Islam to world, A Flower whose beauty and fragrance attracts all or something which not only likes to dictate its followers but also others