View of a ghost town- Russian drone over Damascus

[mike2000 is back]

I am neutral in this Conflict as it does not affect me nor my country. I only make my arguments based on facts. Neither am i a supporter of the Regime nor the Rebels, but i would admit that Assad is still the lesser of the Devils compared to the Opposition. Even the most die hard Regime supporters admit that the Regime handled the initial protests very poorly. If the Regime would have handled them better and in a mature manner, there won't be a Civil War today.

"Pro-democracy protests erupted in March 2011 in the southern city of Deraa after the arrest and torture of some teenagers who painted revolutionary slogans on a school wall. After security forces opened fire on demonstrators, killing several, more took to the streets.

The unrest triggered nationwide protests demanding President Assad's resignation. The government's use of force to crush the dissent merely hardened the protesters' resolve. By July 2011, hundreds of thousands were taking to the streets across the country.

Opposition supporters eventually began to take up arms, first to defend themselves and later to expel security forces from their local areas."

Syria: The story of the conflict - BBC News

well, this is something you still dont get bro. lol Obviously, every member here wo is biased/supports his own side will obviously brand anybody who doesn't agree with his idea or take his side as jihadi supporter or a western brainwash sympathizer.lol While the other side will brand their own protagonist as dictator supporter/sympathizer etc. Its the same story on here. So for someone like you who is a pakistani and who seems to genuinely have no stake in this conflict/is neutral, they will still brand you with all sorts of names if you dont take their side. Its useless for you to try and convince them that you are no. Well, except you agree completely with their view that Assad is a holy angel who has never caused any harm/killed anybody in his life.

 

[jamahir]

You also forget that the same Syrian government supported these terrorists group against U.S/Brtish trroops in Iraq.

what specific case are you talking about??

and you will of course understand that i wouldn't have any sympathy with the usa/british forces.

As i said in geo politics NOBODY/COUNTRY/GOVERNMENT is holy/innocent. Not even your syrian dictator neither was your Gadaffi. They all do what they think is in their interests, EVERYTHING ELSE COMES SECONDARY.

but there is a difference, you see... the east/global-south bloc doesn't engage in imperialism... for example, syrian government support for palestinians groups ( the original/older progressive ones i mean, not hamas ), libyan support for farc of columbia and cuban intervention in angola war... what national interests were these smaller and less powerful ( but influential ) countries seeking??

whereas, nato clearly engages in empire building via regime-change or by cultivating governments that are partially or fully adherents of capitalism, and by simple common sense we can conclude that no government allied with western governments works for internal harmony/progress or world peace, whether this is saudia or the current indian government.

we cannot use "national interests" to dismiss every global event.

The problem with you Jamahir is that you tend to always try and paint the side you support as one holy/peaceful non aggressive regime/government, while painting those you don't like/consider as rivals as 'evi/imperialistic' etc. Thats not how geo politics works unfortunately.

you are being unfair... i am not venezuela-born or libya-born to have automatic emotional connect with the systems there or the leaders there... i support those systems after study of the systems and analysis of their opposition's actions.

The only difference here is that the west has more capabiltiies to protect/enforce its interests globally than others.

well, the capabilities are not entirely military but have also got a lot to do with help from the anti-progressive locals of the place where nato wants to protect/enforce its interests.

I am neutral in this Conflict as it does not affect me nor my country.

maybe you missed the thread where turkey's erdogan government wants pakistan to supposedly help in fighting against pkk and pakistan army representative meeting the turkish army chief i think.

i had left comments in that thread that the erdogan government is suspected to be behind the recent bomb blast in ankara where peace activists were gathering and how would pakistan look in supporting any campaign of such a government.

and what if erdogan wants to extend the role of pakistan army in turkey to beyond the turkish border??

I only make my arguments based on facts. Neither am i a supporter of the Regime nor the Rebels, but i would admit that Assad is still the lesser of the Devils compared to the Opposition.

okay.

Even the most die hard Regime supporters admit that the Regime handled the initial protests very poorly. If the Regime would have handled them better and in a mature manner, there won't be a Civil War today.

1. this is not a "civil war" and neither was it in libya... these two were regime-change attempts by nato... it is quite simple really.

2. i have mentioned this once before to a irani member... i remember from 2011 when this drama started in syria, there was a incident where a sniper was caught shooting at civilians in a syrian city... civilians helped catch him and beat him up badly thinking him to be a israeli operative or a american mercenary... but the initial security forces estimate was that he might have been turkish ( government )... what i am trying to say is that when terrorism events like this or shooting from amidst "peaceful protesters" happens, how should the government respond?? let us recall the lies that nato continued to speak about libyan airforce supposedly bombarding "peace protestors" despite russia soon producing military satellite photos which show that such a event never happened.

3. in all the interviews of bashar al-assad, to friendly and hostile media, he has repeatedly called for the legitimate local opposition to have dialogue with the government, and yet foreign governments continue to support foreign terrorists, and we must recall that in mid-2013, nato was about to invade syria via land/sea/air and then russia arranged the chemical weapons transfer deal.

"Pro-democracy protests erupted in March 2011 in the southern city of Deraa after the arrest and torture of some teenagers who painted revolutionary slogans on a school wall. After security forces opened fire on demonstrators, killing several, more took to the streets.

The unrest triggered nationwide protests demanding President Assad's resignation. The government's use of force to crush the dissent merely hardened the protesters' resolve. By July 2011, hundreds of thousands were taking to the streets across the country.

Opposition supporters eventually began to take up arms, first to defend themselves and later to expel security forces from their local areas."

Syria: The story of the conflict - BBC News

come on, bbc??

 

[mike2000 is back]

what specific case are you talking about??

and you will of course understand that i wouldn't have any sympathy with the usa/british forces.



but there is a difference, you see... the east/global-south bloc doesn't engage in imperialism... for example, syrian government support for palestinians groups ( the original/older progressive ones i mean, not hamas ), libyan support for farc of columbia and cuban intervention in angola war... what national interests were these smaller and less powerful ( but influential ) countries seeking??

whereas, nato clearly engages in empire building via regime-change or by cultivating governments that are partially or fully adherents of capitalism, and by simple common sense we can conclude that no government allied with western governments works for internal harmony/progress or world peace, whether this is saudia or the current indian government.

we cannot use "national interests" to dismiss every global event.



you are being unfair... i am not venezuela-born or libya-born to have automatic emotional connect with the systems there or the leaders there... i support those systems after study of the systems and analysis of their opposition's actions.



well, the capabilities are not entirely military but have also got a lot to do with help from the anti-progressive locals of the place where nato wants to protect/enforce its interests.

LOL I never said you had to have any sympathy for U.S/British forces did i? just like i have no sympathy for the Syrian regime and its soldiers, so im also happy to see them being decimated and killed in the thousands i.e(having a taste of their own medecine), hopefully more of them will keep dying and Assad will end up with his head on a spike.lol. So i guess according to you, that also makes me a jihadi supporter isnt it? You see each side have thier own interests and will dowhatever they can to protect and further it BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY.

LMAO.....You said the global south doesnt engage in imperialism?? What are you even talking about? Do they have a choice? They dont have the capabilities/means/links to project power globally like the West does. That's the simple truth. If they did, they wouldn't be any different. Just look at how regional 'global southern powers' react/act when they have the capabiltiies to influence their region. They also try and be the dominant power in that region, look at Iran who is also trying to maintain and cement its influence in its neighbourhood along with KSA by financing itsown proxies and using ALL MEANS NECESSARY, look at small Vietnam invading and conquering Cambodia,Laos and threatening Thailand(to this day they still have troops in both countries to cement thier control), same like China now asserting its influence/dominance in its own neighbourhood alarming its smaller weaker neighbours, India doing the same in its neighbourhood by interfereing in all its smaller S.Asian neighbours internal affairs and putting its puppets in power when it can.lol etc etc.....List is long. As i said earlier you cant blame us for having far more capabilities to do all these globally, while others can at best do theirs regionally. I dont blame any of these countries though since they are all doing this for their own interests, which is how geo-politics works.

As for your other point about Syrian government support for ONLY Progressive palestinians not Hamas. lol What planet have you been living in bro? The syrian dictatorial regime has been supporting terrorists group Hamas for decades, to the point of hosting thier leaders in Damascus itself.lol Syrian President Vows to Keep Supporting Hezbollah, Hamas - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News Source. They merely relocated to Qatar after the Syrian revolution started. Report: Hamas Leadership to Relocate From Syria to Qatar - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News Source

It has also been interfering in Lebanons internal affairs for decades, many people even once term Lebanon as Syrias puppet/client state, since Syria had a complete dominance of Lebanon with many troops based there. Before they were kicked out after western/international comdenation for killing Lebanons prime minister Rafik Harari who was against them having troops there and controling his country.

Syrian occupation of Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As i said your views are too ideological, and i know how hard it is to reason rationally with ideologists. Its also why we find it easier to interact/cooperate with the Chinese today than many other countries, since they are more realiists not ideologists like before unlike other countries who still are(like Iran). So you can carry on with your socialists/ideological views/bias for all i care. lol

 

[Shotgunner51]

China now asserting its influence/dominance in its own neighbourhood alarming its smaller weaker neighbours

No, it does not even have the slightest thing to do with dominance.

Ancient Chinese empires might have used vassal system in their spheres of protectorates, nowadays PRC only maintains trade or investment links with all sovereign nations in the world, including those having disputes with.

Time has changed, the days PLA warring with US plus 16 other countries on Korean peninsula are long gone, so are the days warring with USSR or Vietnam. In resolving disputes of whatever nature, negotiation is the preferred means, military force is always last option. China only maintains a defense budget level on par with many pacifist countries, and a very modest scale of purely defensive PLA after continuous retrenchments, recent personnel cut is 300,000 as announced last month on 70th Victory Day parade.

Cutting deals are more interesting than cutting throats, China Inc is pacifist my friend.

 

[jamahir]

recent personnel cut is 300,000 as announced last month.

wow !! i wish india and pakistan did that too, proportionally.

 

[AugenBlick]

The problem with you Jamahir is that you tend to always try and paint the side you support as one holy/peaceful non aggressive regime/government, while painting those you don't like/consider as rivals as 'evi/imperialistic' etc. Thats not how geo politics works unfortunately. The only difference here is that the west has more capabiltiies to protect/enforce its interests globally than others.

Barking up the wrong tree my boy ... he is an ISIS supporter

 

[mike2000 is back]

Barking up the wrong tree my boy ... he is an ISIS supporter

Ahahahahah.......nahhhh.....my friend jamahir is merely a radical 'socialists' not ISIS supporter, who has been led his ideological views into believing his fellow developing 'socialists'(non western) countries dictators/leaders are somehow holy/non aggressive and righteous. Lol So its difficult for him to accept that all these countries are also involved in dirty politics/regional power plays. What he doesn't understand is that NO GOVERNMENT in this world is moral. Its not just him though, there are a few members here who think the same way. Lol for them their side is holy,benevolent and has never caused any harm.
I cant blame them though, since blaming the 'evil imperialistic' West is more trendy these days lol

Anyway Assad is merely getting what he deserves, When you play with fire you will eventually get burn. Except you are a big mature world power like U.S/U.K/France/Russia etc then you and your country can still come out intact, but unfortunately its not the case for smaller/weaker powers(they will be easilly devoured by bigger hunters in the forest.). So Assad overplayed his hand and tried to take more than he could chew, even after we warned him several times against such actions, yet he still continued. Now we will make sure we repay him in kind and more. Let him have a good taste of his own medecine mixed with ours. Since he tried to play with the big boys, its only natural the big boys should now play with him.

 

[ozzy22]

Ahahahahah.......nahhhh.....my friend jamahir is merely a radical 'socialists' not ISIS supporter, who has been led his ideological views into believing his fellow developing 'socialists'(non western) countries dictators/leaders are somehow holy/non aggressive and righteous. Lol So its difficult for him to accept that all these countries are also involved in dirty politics/regional power plays. What he doesn't understand is that NO GOVERNMENT in this world is moral. Its not just him though, there are a few members here who think the same way. Lol for them their side is holy,benevolent and has never caused any harm.
I cant blame them though, since blaming the 'evil imperialistic' West is more trendy these days lol

Anyway Assad is merely getting what he deserves, When you play with fire you will eventually get burn. Except you are a big mature world power like U.S/U.K/France/Russia etc then you and your country can still come out intact, but unfortunately its not the case for smaller/weaker powers(they will be easilly devoured by bigger hunters in the forest.). So Assad overplayed his hand and tried to take more than he could chew, even after we warned him several times against such actions, yet he still continued. Now we will make sure we repay him in kind and more. Let him have a good taste of his own medecine mixed with ours. Since he tried to play with the big boys, its only natural the big boys should now play with him.

You seem to have no empathy at all. What about the devastation that the ordinary people of Syria have suffered? Thousands of people have died and your acting as if it’s some kind of game and your suppose to be the good guys who only want democracy and human rights for all.

 

[Psychic]

What was the reason?
Not money for sure.

They knew exactly what their SAA was doing. Many were given criminal orders against civilians.
The Syrians who have left Syria are better as there is no side worth fighting for.

 

[Spectre]

China Inc is pacifist my friend.

Said the wolf to the sheep.

 

[jamahir]

Many were given criminal orders against civilians.

i am not one to use such words generally, but this time i will - bullshit.

the syrian patriotic member, syrian lion, is absent since march i think... i would have left it to him to tell you of reality.

 

[mike2000 is back]

You seem to have no empathy at all. What about the devastation that the ordinary people of Syria have suffered? Thousands of people have died and your acting as if it’s some kind of game and your suppose to be the good guys who only want democracy and human rights for all.

Awwwww.....you seem to be a genuine human rights defender and moral advocate. However im afraid you are barking on the wrong tree bro, this is geo politics not some childs game.If you are looking for morality then go be a doctor, nursery school teacher or pastor etc The moment you get involve in politics then believe me you are not clean anymore Moreover dictator Assad brought this unto himself as i said earlier. He openly finnced and supported these same terror groups against our boys in Iraq just 8 years ago, we warned him and his mullahs backers several times, but he not only continued but even increased his support for them, since according to him he was fighting against infidel invaders, his actions alsp costs the deaths of several iraqi civilians and afew of our boys. I wont even mention his actions in lebanon by which hesought to keep under his control/thump forever if not for our pressures for his troops to leave Lbanon alone after he assasinated their PM for not wanting his soldiers and their brutality in Leban anymore, plus his supportfor terror group Hamas etc. list is long.
Now that the tables have turned against him, you want me to have sympathy for him? lol Nope, im no father christmas(though i wish i was.lol).

If he had remain neutral , focused on his own country and not try and play big powers games against bigger hunters, then maybe he wouldn't be inthis situation. He should have acted like say Jordan or Mongolia i.e MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS and leave other powers do their thing, then only then he probably wont be in this situation. If you want to play with big powers or againstthem, then be sure you can keep up.lol

Assad could have also easilly cede power(even to one of his protege), just to calm down theprotests and avoid it fom spreading, thereby setting up a form of transition(no matter how fake/deceiving it might have been) it would have been better since it would have taken away the protesters main motives for starting the revolution and brought all sides to the table for A BETTER SYRIA/TRANSITION. But instead he opted for staying put NO MATTER THE COST TO HIS COUNTRY. Reminds me of some African dictators, who, will do everyhting to stay in power NO MATTER THE COST TO THEIR COUNTRY/PEOPLE. As the saying goes: POWER CORRUPTS, BUT ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.

So i do feel bad/sorry for the syrian women and children who have nothingto do with their dicators actions/ego, but as you know they are merely collateral damage(there is always collateral damage involved in any power games, see Russian fighter jets also killing syrian civilians by mistake, its still collateral damage not intentional). So Assad brought this unto himself. He asked for it and got served.(maybe with a little bit more spices than he expected).lol

 

[Psychic]

i am not one to use such words generally, but this time i will - bullshit.

the syrian patriotic member, syrian lion, is absent since march i think... i would have left it to him to tell you of reality.

You think in only black or white whereas I am not siding with anyone. Things aren't always in black or white.
What you declared BS happened and won't change. Assad was no saint. His Shabiha soldiers(steroid junkies) massacared men in villages and raped their women. Denying crimes committed by Assad and his thugs just because of some socialist factor is pure dishonesty.
Syrian Loin wasn't the only Syrian member of pdf btw.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Assad is bad. Thats the refrain you hear from Assad haters. But in hate of Assad, you have destroyed Syria. Who is the bigger villain here? Assad? Or the forces who funded terror to topple Assad?

LOOL What are you on about?? Did you read the link i provided about Dictator Assad open support for Al Qaeda and other terror groups in destabilizing Iraq and killing U.S/British troops and Iraqi civilians?? He openly supported these same jihadists which you now claim to be evil. So if anything we are now doing the region a favor by turning these jihadists against their former main backer. You see as i said, play with fire it will eventually burn you(except you are a big power, you can still come out of it unaffected internally, not so for smaller powers). So dont cry for Assad, I can maybe cry for syrian women and children who are now collateral damage due their dictator leader actions/support for terrorism. Im shedding no tears for him, on the contrary im quite happy Karma got back to him pretty hard than i even expected.lol Hopefully his regime and soldiers will keep dying at the ends of their former foot soldiers who according to the Assad regime 'were fighting were against infidel invaders'.lol

Syria's Role in the Iraq Insurgency - inFocus Quarterly Journal

 

[jamahir]

Denying crimes committed by Assad and his thugs just because of some socialist factor is pure dishonesty.

so the approx 100,000 member ndf ( national defense forces ) allied with the syrian government/saa and including female fighters are also thugs then?? let us remember that this is a volunteer force.

my own little thread on them ( ndf, the "national defence forces" of syria - a documentary ).

Syrian Loin wasn't the only Syrian member of pdf btw.

who else, that ikhwaani psycho, dr.thrax?? or the female member, antaress, who was sympathetic a few days back with the death of a indian tableeghi jamaati parasite??