Vietnam builds military muscle to face China

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

The sino vietnam war caused an economic desaster to vietnam, throwing us back in development for 20 years. In light of this, China won, I admit. The chinese poster beijingwalker is right: it was a typical chinese method keeping us weak and poor.

I call bull shit.

Vietnam was seen as a kindred Asian bro, a younger one from the same family. China never set out to to bring down Vietnam, it was Vietnam selling out China by siding with the Soviet Union that Fcuked everything up.

1979 PLA was a joke, all the true veterans of the civil war, Korean war and Indian war were too old by this point and yahoos from the cultural revolution formed the bulk of the army. If you have an SKS, you were a very lucky PLA soldier.

The 1979 war was a fcuk up on both sides. Then again, having to fight a war in the first place is always a fcuk up in my books.

 

[applesauce]

Okay, if my figures are unrealistic, then what would a realistic figure be then?

i dont not pretend to know. i already explained why i think 2million casualty is BS.

The Last Time China Got Into a Fight With Vietnam, It Was a Disaster

David Stout @david_m_stout
May 15, 2014

In the winter of 1978, when Deng Xiaoping made his threat of a “lesson,” more than 80,000 Chinese troops were sent across the border into Vietnam. Chinese Deputy Defense Minister Su Yu boasted of being able to take Hanoi in a week, but the untested and under-equipped People’s Liberation Army (PLA) met fierce resistance from battle-hardened Vietnamese forces deployed across the frontier’s limestone karsts. The Chinese were slaughtered by local militia from positions that had been utilized for centuries against invaders from the north.

“More Chinese soldiers were getting killed because they were fighting like it was the old times,” says Vietnamese veteran Nguyen Huu Hung, who witnessed the PLA’s human waves being mown down near the city of Lang Son. “They were in lines and just keep moving ahead … they didn’t run away.”

It would take just six weeks for Beijing to call off its “self-defensive counteroffensive.” Teaching the Vietnamese a lesson turned out to be a costly affair. Official casualty statistics have never been released by either Beijing or Hanoi; however, analysts have estimate that as many as 50,000 Chinese soldiers died during the confrontation.

“I heard that [China] said they wanted to teach Vietnam a lesson, but I can’t see what the lesson was,” says Hung. “Our job was to fight against them. But the losses, to be honest, were huge.”

South China Sea: The Last Time China and Vietnam Fought, It Was Hell

yes it was and as you can see, its had 50,000 deaths. a far, far cry from 2 millions that was posted. and during that war, the chinese army had a real bite taken out of it by the cultural revolution already.

I said that Soviet technicain had trained our techinicians and soldiers how to use such modern weapon on the battle fields, mostly for SAM 2 counter US airforces.. We didn't let them get risk to join in real fighting. There was no necessary.

For the pilots, all of Vietnemese pilot were trained in Soviet Union before they could tuned back home to attande for fight counter US airforces.

Soviet veteran Techinician in Vietnam war visited Vietnam recently. They turned back where they have trained our officiers, soldiers how manipulate such miissles in battle field.

except i already posted sources saying there were in fact soviet pilots in the air battling american forces, which you seem to just ignore.

 

[jhungary]

a numbers game? thats a game china won't lose

It's not about winning and/or losing, a War between Vietnam and China will see China win almost with 100% certainty.

Just how much Chinese Blood you want to bled in order to secure that win

i highly doubt this, iraq had 375,000 man army, and how many casualties did the us take wrecking them? heck even in the 70s when vietnam was supported by the soviet union and china the US has less than 60,000 KIAs.

now im not saying that the PLA is as strong as the US ARMY/Marines, but 33.33 times worst, especially considering vietnam had active support(as in actual pilots and men fighting) of a superpower and a major regional power durng the vietnam war? i have a seriously problem with that.

Both Vietnam war and Iraq War (First Gulf War) is going to be different than a War to be fought between China and Vietnam. Both Iraq and Vietnam war are limited fought on US side, while if a war broke out between Vietnam and China, the war will not be limited.

In Vietnam war, the accumulated troop US supplied is no more than 1.6 millions (about 1/3 are actual combatant) and 58307 KIA represent a 3% casualty (KIA only) rate. Given the US have very seriously focus on Air Power the number actually represent more to actual combat power lost, in an estimated 10% loss, if we only consider actual combat power (such as frontline infantry, fighter/bomber pilot and navy personnel)

In Iraq, actual ground combat are extremely limited, it basically finished within 4 days, but with 180+ days preceding bombing. The war was literally finished before the ground campaign started.

However, in a Chinese-Vietnamese War, depending on how much Chinese contribute to the war and how long will the war drag on, China is looking at about 15-20% loss and up to 50% casualty rate (compare to 30% (410,000/1,500,000)with US Troop during Vietnam war) Also, US was facing mostly guerrilla force during Vietnam war (A force combine NLF+NVA) but China will be facing better trained Vietnam Army than the one during the Vietnam War

 

[Stag112]

Good going Vietnamese brothers. Chinese bullying is a concern for everybody in the region except subservient cheerleaders as seen on the thread.

 

[Aepsilons]

Holy shit. You get information from the Japanese!
Great Han saying, 站不更名，坐不改姓。

You're definitely a Kuomintang supporter flying a false flag. Typical and deceptive and maligning Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese at the same time.

 

[Viet]

I call bull shit.

Vietnam was seen as a kindred Asian bro, a younger one from the same family. China never set out to to bring down Vietnam, it was Vietnam selling out China by siding with the Soviet Union that Fcuked everything up.

1979 PLA was a joke, all the true veterans of the civil war, Korean war and Indian war were too old by this point and yahoos from the cultural revolution formed the bulk of the army. If you have an SKS, you were a very lucky PLA soldier.

The 1979 war was a fcuk up on both sides. Then again, having to fight a war in the first place is always a fcuk up in my books.

you forget the decision for north vietnam to take side was forced by china leadership! that was not what vietnam wanted. china changed course midst of the war, splitting up with the Soviets, ultimatively demanded north vietnam to select: either China or USSR?

the decision of north vietnam taking the superpower USSR was logical because VN wanted to win the war with the goal uniting the country. besides the northvietnamese had distrust toward the chinese government under Mao Zedong. if you were vietnamese, I am pretty sure you would take the same decision. USSR provided everything what north vietnam needed to end to war. while China with half hearted supports not.

 

[Viet]

An Arleigh Burke class DDG would cost 2 billion for the US government to purchase per unit, and even more expensive for their allies.

It is 100% certain that they will not give you for free.

too expensive and out of reach. sure, the US hardly gives VN for free. but we have some cheaper toys to counter you at sea. no, it is not the latest antiship missile for our SU-30 bombers. if hit, your warship is gone.

this one, a new secret weapon: vietnam made jackup oil rig: Tam Dao 05, 18,000 tons and can drill to a depth of nine kilometers. you will soon see it and more in the SC Sea.

 

[Aepsilons]

As a Filipino I don't think using the term "Intsik" as derogatory. It's a Pinoy word for "Chinese". I'd rather call them "Intsik" than calling them "Tsekwa" (Chekwa) which is derogatory and racial slur.

The term 'Inchik' is not a derogatory term at all. I have lived in Cebu for a bit and even own a condominium in downtown Cebu City. Many of my good friends in Cebu are Inchik Na Pinoy (Chinese Filipino). To be specific, I would hang around with a lot of Filipinos who have Chinese ancestry , they are very accomodating and respectful. And by the way, they refer to themselves as "Inchik ako" OR "i am Chinese".

"Intsik" than calling them "Tsekwa" (Chekwa) which is derogatory and racial slur.

Never have heard of the term 'Tsekwa', but i guess it has a negative connotation. Some Filipinos also have a tendency of saying wrong terminology , i know that for the older generation they use the term "Hapon" which means "Japanese".

But they can also say "Hapon Yan", which i think has a negative connotation for Japanese people.

However, in a Chinese-Vietnamese War, depending on how much Chinese contribute to the war and how long will the war drag on, China is looking at about 15-20% loss and up to 50% casualty rate (compare to 30% (410,000/1,500,000)with US Troop during Vietnam war) Also, US was facing mostly guerrilla force during Vietnam war (A force combine NLF+NVA) but China will be facing better trained Vietnam Army than the one during the Vietnam War

The proximity of Vietnam to Guangxi/Guangdong means a high casualty rate and infiltration by the PAV to southern China. The Vietnamese will definitely suffer overwhelming casualties if the entire PLA were to mobilize deep into Viet Nam, however, so too would the PLA.

The chance of collateral damage is high, and refugees from cross-border areas is also high. Disease would take a toll since we are looking at a contiguous zone that has anywhere between 300-350 million people.

In other words a war is no good for for both Vietnam and China. Its a lose-lose scenario. Best for both sides to chill out, calm down, talk it over.

 

[Aepsilons]

too expensive and out of reach. sure, the US hardly gives VN for free. but we have some cheaper toys to counter you at sea. no, it is not the latest antiship missile for our SU-30 bombers. if hit, your warship is gone.

this one, a new secret weapon: vietnam made jackup oil rig: Tam Dao 05, 18,000 tons and can drill to a depth of nine kilometers. you will soon see it and more in the SC Sea.

@Viet , ---- Ultimately i think it would be best for Vietnam to collaborate with the Chinese in joint research / joint extraction of the natural resources. Your people should not be so as foolish to totally abandon the possibility of collaboration with the Chinese in various mutually exclusive areas. Cooperation on joint interdiction to reduce drug trafficking, human migration and rescue operations on the high seas is realistic and required. As for territoriality --- that can be ironed out with time and with compromises on the bilateral table.

I understand that in order to feed public consumption both sides have to 'muscle pump' image on regards to territorial guard and territorial forces in the SCS and in the Long Sang border region. Viet Nam should indeed invest in growing her relations with other trade partners aside from China, however, one cannot deny or ignore the Chinese. Nor can the Chinese afford to ignore or totally isolate the Vietnamese.

My point: Vietnam has to maintain both hands ; keep your fist open, not closed.

 

[Viet]

@Viet , ---- Ultimately i think it would be best for Vietnam to collaborate with the Chinese in joint research / joint extraction of the natural resources. Your people should not be so as foolish to totally abandon the possibility of collaboration with the Chinese in various mutually exclusive areas. Cooperation on joint interdiction to reduce drug trafficking, human migration and rescue operations on the high seas is realistic and required. As for territoriality --- that can be ironed out with time and with compromises on the bilateral table.

I understand that in order to feed public consumption both sides have to 'muscle pump' image on regards to territorial guard and territorial forces in the SCS and in the Long Sang border region. Viet Nam should indeed invest in growing her relations with other trade partners aside from China, however, one cannot deny or ignore the Chinese. Nor can the Chinese afford to ignore or totally isolate the Vietnamese.

My point: Vietnam has to maintain both hands ; keep your fist open, not closed.

actually before the chinese intentionally put oil rig into our waters with the goal of provocations, to intimidate and humiliate vietnam, many progresses are made: demarcation in the gulf of tonkin, fishery agreement, joint explorations and sea patrols in the gulf, ongoing negotations making the sea borders in the SC Sea, status of the islands, etc.

now the atmosphere is poisened. the trust is gone, the distrust comes back. also, the memory of the wounds that both countries inflicted on each others. whereas vietnam suffered more and most. that is very unfortunate.

 

[Jlaw]

The term 'Inchik' is not a derogatory term at all. I have lived in Cebu for a bit and even own a condominium in downtown Cebu City. Many of my good friends in Cebu are Inchik Na Pinoy (Chinese Filipino). To be specific, I would hang around with a lot of Filipinos who have Chinese ancestry , they are very accomodating and respectful. And by the way, they refer to themselves as "Inchik ako" OR "i am Chinese".



Never have heard of the term 'Tsekwa', but i guess it has a negative connotation. Some Filipinos also have a tendency of saying wrong terminology , i know that for the older generation they use the term "Hapon" which means "Japanese".

But they can also say "Hapon Yan", which i think has a negative connotation for Japanese people.



The proximity of Vietnam to Guangxi/Guangdong means a high casualty rate and infiltration by the PAV to southern China. The Vietnamese will definitely suffer overwhelming casualties if the entire PLA were to mobilize deep into Viet Nam, however, so too would the PLA.

The chance of collateral damage is high, and refugees from cross-border areas is also high. Disease would take a toll since we are looking at a contiguous zone that has anywhere between 300-350 million people.

In other words a war is no good for for both Vietnam and China. Its a lose-lose scenario. Best for both sides to chill out, calm down, talk it over.

If there was a war between China and Vietnam, there will be 0 chance Vietnamese troops can even step into Chinese turf.

 

[Aepsilons]

actually before the chinese intentionally put oil rig into our waters with the goal of provocations, to intimidate and humiliate vietnam, many progresses are made: demarcation in the gulf of tonkin, joint explorations and sea patrols in the gulf, ongoing negotations making the sea borders in the SC Sea, status of the islands, etc.

now the atmosphere is poisened. that is very unfortunately. the trust is gone, the distrust comes back. also, the memory of the wounds that both countries inflicted on each others.

I really wonder what precipitated this. It seems that it all started back in 2012 Scarborough Shoal incident.

Japan, too, was in cooperation with China in the Chunxiao gas exploratory deal and was in progress with a demarcation process. After the incident in the Philipines, it seems as if there was a region-wide contention process.

If there was a war between China and Vietnam, there will be 0 chance Vietnamese troops can even step into Chinese turf.

I really doubt a war would start. The Vietnamese had no intention of starting a war with China in 1979, anyways. They merely defended against a Chinese-initiated offensive campaign.

Currently, there is 0% chance of the Chinese to invade Vietnam; it would be against norm and would unravel everything China has done and worked for in the past 2 decades --- which is establishing greater trade and relations with Southeast Asia. It benefits China 0% to invade Vietnam or have a war with Vietnam.

That is why I say there will be no war. Worst case scenario is military provocation vis-a-vis naval tresspass here and there, but to the extent of actual war? No, zero chance.

 

[beijingwalker]

China has no land disputes with Vietnam so any possible future conflicts will be on the sea or the skies. China only needs to neutralize Vietnamese navy and air force, that's a easy job to do.

 

[Aepsilons]

China has no land disputes with Vietnam so any possible future conflicts will be on the sea or the skies. China only needs to neutralize Vietnamese navy and air force, that's a easy job to do.

The VPN won't go too far away from the protection of their coastal anti ship batteries, however. They will remain purely defensive.

 

[beijingwalker]

The VPN won't go too far away from the protection of their coastal anti ship batteries, however. They will remain purely defensive.

Chinese missiles will rain down on their coast and problem settled.