US tough talk could push Pakistan closer to Russia, China

[Secur]

Look at Russia's ties with Indonesia, Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Like Pakistan they were on opposite side of the cold war versus Soviet Union. They have much improved relationships with Russia. Despite being on opposite sides on Syria Russia sold the turks S-400. Even after Turks shot down Russian aircraft.

You can name all the high level visits you want. Putin has not shown up in Pakistan. He has made 70 trips in the last 5 years including 3 to India. For all the talk of defense co-operation Pakistan has bought 4 Mi-35 attack choppers for $150 million.

Russia's relationship with Pakistan can improve. In the short run it will be dwarfed by their ties with India.

There's a huge difference, there. They may have been on the opposite sides of the USSR back then, but we were directly involved in fighting against them in Afghanistan. Keeping that in mind, the Russia-Pakistan have improved considerably in-spite of all the historical bad blood.

So, if the Russians have no use for Islamabad as per you and dealing with our country negatively impacts their relations with India, why make an effort to improve ties and pursue co-operation with Pakistan? Putin did show up in'02, which was followed by high level visits by both parties. Forget the Mi-35, tell me can the JF-17 fly without the RD-93, which is acquired through China and whose sale hasn't been blocked by Kremlin despite all the Indian protest?
What's Driving Russia-Pakistan Cooperation on Afghanistan?
Russia endorses full SCO membership for Pakistan
Russia supports China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project: Russian envoy Alexey Y Dedov

 

[wiseone2]

There's a huge difference, there. They may have been on the opposite sides of the USSR back then, but we were directly involved in fighting against them in Afghanistan. Keeping that in mind, the Russia-Pakistan have improved considerably in-spite of all the historical bad blood.

So, if the Russians have no use for Islamabad as per you and dealing with our country negatively impacts their relations with India, why make an effort to improve ties and pursue co-operation with Pakistan? Putin did show up in'02, which was followed by high level visits by both parties. Forget the Mi-35, tell me can the JF-17 fly without the RD-93, which is acquired through China and whose sale hasn't been blocked by Kremlin despite all the Indian protest?
What's Driving Russia-Pakistan Cooperation on Afghanistan?
Russia endorses full SCO membership for Pakistan
Russia supports China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project: Russian envoy Alexey Y Dedov

SCO does not serve Russian interests. Central Asia was part of USSR. Now they have to share influence with China.

What is there in Afghanistan for Russia ?

What is the use of CPEC for Russia ? Name one Russian export that will come through CPEC

 

[Secur]

SCO does not serve Russian interests. Central Asia was part of USSR. Now they have to share influence with China.

What is there in Afghanistan for Russia ?

What is the use of CPEC for Russia ? Name one Russian export that will come through CPEC

See, I am not trying to contest the fact that Indo-Russian relations have been historically excellent and driven by a long standing strategic partnership. What I am arguing on, is your earlier statement that Russians have no use for Pakistan. That doesn't appear to be supported by the Kremlin statements and actions, since a long period of time. You present all these arguments, yet fail to ponder the fact that Moscow has been persistently trying to mend its relations with Pakistan, even with a negative effect on its relations with India. Why?

 

[wiseone2]

See, I am not trying to contest the fact that Indo-Russian relations have been historically excellent and driven by a long standing strategic partnership. What I am arguing on, is your earlier statement that Russians have no use for Pakistan. That doesn't appear to be supported by the Kremlin statements and actions, since a long period of time. You present all these arguments, yet fail to ponder the fact that Moscow has been persistently trying to mend its relations with Pakistan, even with a negative effect on its relations with India. Why?

USSR had poor relationship with most of the world. that is the reason for losing the cold war. Russia has tried to repair relationships. Improvement in relations with Pakistan has to be looked within the context
Improvements is a function of government policies, core national interests and business relationships. Pakistan is not a big buyer of energy or Russian weapons. it never will be.

I like to know what do you think is Russia's core interests ??

 

[Basel]

Pakistan can give nothing to Russia

India has a TEN time bigger market
And even the Afghans support ; prefer ; like India

Strategic relationship is not transaction based and Russia want strategic relationship with Pakistan and both are working gradually towards it.

If Russia don't give importance to Pakistan then why Russian Navy is expending it cooperation with PN??

@Rashid Mahmood please shed some light here on aforesaid.

 

[Providence]

you guys should chill a bit. Trump is just being a tad bit more dramatic than usual !!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

If Russia don't give importance to Pakistan then why Russian Navy is expending it cooperation with PN??

Exercises of what scale and level given PN's limited abilities

Russia has limited exposure to the militaries of the world given their isolation
from the West ; Hence they dont mind exercising with PN

 

[Basel]

Exercises of what scale and level given PN's limited abilities

Russia has limited exposure to the militaries of the world given their isolation
from the West ; Hence they dont mind exercising with PN

It's tech exposure for Pakistan and learning western way of war fighting for Russia.

 

[T-72M1]

Compared to the Indian military's acquisition needs and plans, Pakistan just don't have enough economic muscle to wean Russia away from India in a strategic sense.

 

[Secur]

USSR had poor relationship with most of the world. that is the reason for losing the cold war. Russia has tried to repair relationships. Improvement in relations with Pakistan has to be looked within the context
Improvements is a function of government policies, core national interests and business relationships. Pakistan is not a big buyer of energy or Russian weapons. it never will be.

I like to know what do you think is Russia's core interests ??

Nobody does anything for the sake of it in the pragmatic and logical world of today, specially in foreign policy. Russia is trying to repair relationship with Pakistan, because it sees some utility in it and not otherwise. That isn't possible. Not everything is related to purchasing a large number of weapons and energy, there are other factors driving the change. An acceptable if not positive outcome of the war in Afghanistan, stability and peace in the Russian backyard, access to CPEC and subsequently keeping American influence in check (already mentioned in my first reply).

1. Pakistan Army actively participated in Russian Army War Games 2015 held in Russian Far east. Pakistan was also among the 6 countries that took part in Master of The Air Defense Battle Competition besides Russia, China, Egypt, Venezuela and Belarus.
Six Nations to Compete in 'Masters of Air Defense' Battle at Army Games

2. As it officially conveyed to Moscow, India was disturbed by Russia's decision to hold its first ever joint military exercise with Pakistan days after Uri terror strike which left 19 Indian soldiers dead. The Russians justified it by saying that the exercise was meant to help Pakistan deal with terrorism. (Exercise Friendship 2016) Russia supports China-Pakistan Economic Corridor project: Russian envoy Alexey Y Dedov

3.The Kremlin has given credibility to these assumptions by describing Pakistan as a constructive counterterrorism partner in public statements and expanding bilateral military cooperation with Pakistan. On March 30, a Russian military delegation, accompanied by senior Pakistani army officers, made a historic visit to the conflict-ridden Pakistan-Afghanistan border areas of North and South Waziristan.
What's Driving Russia-Pakistan Cooperation on Afghanistan?

4. Prime Minister Putin said relations between Pakistan and Russia have reached a level, where both the countries were in a position to enhance trade, measuring up to their strong ties. The Russian premier also supported Prime Minister Gilani’s proposals for implementing trade and energy projects. He announced financing of 500 million US dollars for the CASA-1000 for the power transmission from Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Putin also offered Russia’s assistance for the enhancement of the production capacity of the Pakistan Steel Mills by increasing its production from the current one million tonnes to three million tonnes. He also offered coal gasification technology for the Thar coal and upgradation of the Guddu and Muzaffargarh power plants to increase power generation capacity to help meet country’s growing energy needs. Putin supported Pakistan’s stance on war on terror and agreed to pursue the policy of counter-terrorism for ensuring regional peace. Pakistan, Russia to go for FTA, currency swap agreement

5. In 2012, Russia and Pakistan covertly developed geopolitical and strategic relations behind the scenes of world politics. As the NATO-led ISAF Forces are planning to depart Afghanistan, the Russians thought Pakistan was a crucial player and decided to close-in. Russia-Pakistan: Evolving Military Relationship

6. China went ahead and gave Pakistan two RD-93 equipped JF-17 fighters for its annual air force day in March. This had the Indians protesting to Russia that the Chinese had violated the end-user agreement. Moscow has "frozen" a Chinese request for re-export of RD-93 engines, used to power the multi-role JF-17 fighter, to Pakistan. Two JF-17 fighters, handed over to Pakistan by China as part of a joint-venture agreement last March, have been returned to Beijing. After India lodges protest, Russia stops China from handing its engines to Pak for fighters
In what could cause concern to India, Russia has reportedly permitted China to re-export its RD-93 fighter engines to Pakistan.”This permission will enable the supply of 150 Chinese JF-17 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan, and help implement the contract for the supply of Russian engines worth USD 238 million,” Russian daily ‘Kommersant’ reported today.
Russia to Permit Chinese Sale of RD-93 Fighter Jet Engines to Pakistan

7. Pakistan and Russia inked the Mi-35 sale on 19 August 2015. At the time, IHS Jane’s reported that Pakistan could procure a total of up to 20 Mi-35s. Pakistan’s procurement timeline is not known, but MoDP Hussain mentioned that talks were underway with Russia for Mi-35s in June of this year. Considering the cost of raising the requisite logistics and maintenance infrastructure of the Mi-35, it is unlikely that the Pakistan Army would only operate four units. Pakistan was also in talks with Rostec to raise a local maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) centre to support the Mi-35s and Mi-17s.
Pakistan will reportedly receive Mi-35 helicopters in 2017

8. Firstly, the Crimean annexation and trouble in East Ukraine put Russia under several stringent economic sanctions by the European Union and the United States. This resulted in Russia turning to China as well as other countries to stabilise its economy. Additionally, it is possible that the Chinese interest in Pakistan’s strategic location in terms of the Pak-China Economic Corridor, highly crucial for China’s trade and security, may also have tickled Russia’s fancy of reaching the warm waters of Indian Ocean. Secondly, India’s growing close association with the US is also a factor compelling the Russian Federation to look for alternative allies in South Asia.
Pak-Russia defense relations

 

[wiseone2]

Deleted verbose response

what do you think is Russia's core interests ??

 

[Secur]

what do you think is Russia's core interests ??

Perhaps if you would read my posts, you would know, before hastening to reply to the post. But for someone more interested in scoring brownie points and seeing things through the lens of jingoism, seeing more than visible facts might be difficult.

 

[wiseone2]

Perhaps if you would read my posts, you would know, before hastening to reply to the post. But for someone more interested in scoring brownie points and seeing things through the lens of jingoism, seeing more than visible facts might be difficult.

Russia core interests
1. lift economic sanctions by the West
2. access to EU market for goods, services and people
3. maximize hydrocarbon revenues
4. nuclear parity with USA (China in the long run)
5. no threats to its periphery (most of them are Islamic)

Pakistan adds nothing to the first four. Pakistan can help marginally on the 5th

If you disagree you can post here

 

[Secur]

Russia core interests
1. lift economic sanctions by the West
2. access to EU market for goods, services and people
3. maximize hydrocarbon revenues
4. nuclear parity with USA (China in the long run)
5. no threats to its periphery (most of them are Islamic)

Pakistan adds nothing to the first four. Pakistan can help marginally on the 5th

If you disagree you can post here

I thought there were no Russian uses for Pakistan as stated earlier by you, now suddenly you have started to find things, even if "marginally". Moscow can gain greater access to Middle Eastern and African markets through CPEC, crucial in these testing times of EU sanctions, a fact not lost on Russian policy makers who were quick to support the project hoping that it can be extended to ex-USSR states. Also, engagement with Islamabad, makes certain that American influence in the region is kept in check, as well as being an effective answer to the growing New Delhi-Washington ties. And making certain that extremism and violence doesn't spill over in the Central Asian states, Pakistan can help greatly with that, not just "slightly", being a major player in Afghanistan for decades. Know something better than the Russians do, again? All of this, was already there in the excerpts I posted above, try to read them next time.

And you still haven't answered my basic question: Why go to all this trouble, if there's nothing in it for Kremlin? Why is there something, instead of nothing?

 

[Post Colonnial]

Russia is spiritual. If Pakistan emphasised that she is also waiting for the return if the Messiah(PBUH) then one would see an even more positive response from Russia.

Russia, spiritual.....Vodka.
and how will you explain messiah to chinese?