US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

[VelocuR]

This is latest news , where you discussed it earlier young man?

NATO admits fault in Pakistan attack
CNN|Added on November 26, 2011

 

[Chogy]

guys i tell u from real credible source that it was a planned attack.the americans were given coordinates of all the post along the Pakistan afg border well in time.where the hell was all that tech once they crossed thr intl border.it was no mistake.it was a sheer act of blunt aggression.

First, there is zero evidence for this.

Second, if the USA decides to intentionally attack Pakistan, you'll know it. It'll look like Baghdad 1991. It won't be a pair of Apache gunships in the mountains.

The incident was horrendous enough without adding rumors to the mix.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

First, there is zero evidence for this.

Second, if the USA decides to intentionally attack Pakistan, you'll know it.

Given the 'delay', perhaps this was not intentional at the 'institutional level', but intentional at the 'local level' - a few 'rogue soldiers' acting out of rage and hate towards perceived 'Pakistani Military duplicity'.

There are plenty of articles out there now that highlight the distrust and dislike towards Pakistan among the 'average US soldier' deployed in Afghanistan, and especially those deployed along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Given the 'delay', perhaps this was not intentional at the 'institutional level', but intentional at the 'local level' - a few 'rogue soldiers' acting out of rage and hate towards perceived 'Pakistani Military duplicity'.

There are plenty of articles out there now that highlight the distrust and dislike towards Pakistan among the 'average US soldier' deployed in Afghanistan, and especially those deployed along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

There so many incidence in which US soldiers have shown that they are losing discipline, I think the war has made many of them mentally disturb. post war syndrome is now with every second solider. Its time US should bring all their soldiers back home.

Never the less the attack could be litmus test of the memo

 

[Chogy]

I'm not saying it is impossible for what you've described to happen, but please consider - when a truly disturbed soldier group commits an act of violence outside ROE, it is usually a couple or three individuals, maybe a squad. But to have an entire aviation squadron commanded by high-ranking officers ignore ROE, go rogue and decide one day,

"Let's smoke us some Paksiatnis! Sure it'll create an international incident of epic proportions. It'll destroy relations. Our careers will be over, we may face court martial. But screw it, I want to kill somebody!"

How likely is this for highly trained officers? Not at all, IMO.

Was there gross negligence and a screw-up of epic proportions in November? Of course. But still a FAR cry from "Lets kill us a gaggle of Pakistani border soldiers!"

 

[lem34]

I'm not saying it is impossible for what you've described to happen, but please consider - when a truly disturbed soldier group commits an act of violence outside ROE, it is usually a couple or three individuals, maybe a squad. But to have an entire aviation squadron commanded by high-ranking officers ignore ROE, go rogue and decide one day,

"Let's smoke us some Paksiatnis! Sure it'll create an international incident of epic proportions. It'll destroy relations. Our careers will be over, we may face court martial. But screw it, I want to kill somebody!"


How likely is this for highly trained officers? Not at all, IMO.

Was there gross negligence and a screw-up of epic proportions in November? Of course. But still a FAR cry from "Lets kill us a gaggle of Pakistani border soldiers!"

Hi chogy

forget the deliberate or not delibrate argument for now but dont you think obama is out of order for not apologising immediatly.

 

[Chogy]

Hi chogy

forget the deliberate or not delibrate argument for now but dont you think obama is out of order for not apologising immediatly.

Yes. It is ridiculous NOT to apologize profusely.

I'm not sure why the USA doesn't do this. Sometimes, I think it is connected with our current lawyer and litigation driven society. To apologize means to admit fault. Ignore this case for a moment. Let's say in the USA you have a car accident. If you know it was your fault, normal human nature is to tell the cops "I'm SO sorry - I was distracted, I hit the guy" and that is guaranteed to make you lose in any court of law. You have ADMITTED fault.

I know this thing isn't going to court, but this tendency not to admit error is sadly becoming ingrained in our culture.

 

[lem34]

Yes. It is ridiculous NOT to apologize profusely.

I'm not sure why the USA doesn't do this. Sometimes, I think it is connected with our current lawyer and litigation driven society. To apologize means to admit fault. Ignore this case for a moment. Let's say in the USA you have a car accident. If you know it was your fault, normal human nature is to tell the cops "I'm SO sorry - I was distracted, I hit the guy" and that is guaranteed to make you lose in any court of law. You have ADMITTED fault.

I know this thing isn't going to court, but this tendency not to admit error is sadly becoming ingrained in our culture.

Thank you Chogy. As far as the legality goes I copy here for you what I posted earlier

They started the whole act by not informing Pakistan what they were doing on that border which they admit they should have. The chain of causation is not broken therefore legally they are still culpable and blame lies with them. They dont need me to tell them I am sure they have JAGs who would tell them. So why cant Obama appologise. Surely you would call me a cynic that Obama may be being influenced by his forthcoming election and he doesnt want to look weak. See this is the crux 26 pakistanis dead is less important to americans than their damn election

---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

^^^^^^ sorry Chogy should have said american president or american govt not american people lol

 

[lem34]

You see Chogy moving on from that. If Obama had done that maybe it would not have escalated to where we are. He has really gone down in my opinion and also he is hurting american interests, deaths of any soldiers are sad they are just doing their duty but blue on blue even more so and we should at least expect an apology if we move on from, here from our ally

 

[fd24]

First, there is zero evidence for this.

Second, if the USA decides to intentionally attack Pakistan, you'll know it. It'll look like Baghdad 1991. It won't be a pair of Apache gunships in the mountains.

The incident was horrendous enough without adding rumors to the mix.

You are one in a few that are in fact respected for your logical and rational thinking. I respect your opinion but would like to ask you a few things - Things i have asked before on here yet your flag bearers dance round answering the question.
Firstly if this incident was as horrific as you and myself suggest then why the hell hasnt their been a more vocal remorse and regret from the official voice of Nato and the US? In fact i see more regret in your posts than any of the leaders and their official statement. Its almost an after thought. This leaves an aftertaste of annoyance and anger of all Pakistanis which is the opposite of what perhaps they want.
Secondly blue on blue went on for 2 hours! Chogy - sit in a room for 100 seconds mate. Its a long time. Imagine 7200 seconds - of continious attacking! It just doesnt add up nor is it justifiable. As a person who has served his country you have to admit and accept there is something that doesnt add up.
Finally the enquiry held was in fact an attempt to question the accused and ask them what happened. How difficult is this when you are the offender, jury and judge - it simply impossible, hence my belief the enquiry is a no go and simply a rejection of what is the real version which will in reality never come out.
Please dont in any way be offended - i am asking something that is genuinely concerning me - and i cant fathom the logic or decifer the thought process to give me answers that balance the equation.

(Sorry im a slow typer ^^ you have already posted part of the answers whilst i was typing this!! Soz Chog - you could still voice your opinion on the rest of what i ask!)

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi chogy

forget the deliberate or not delibrate argument for now but dont you think obama is out of order for not apologising immediatly.

this is my personal opinion and people have right to disagree


1. we shouldn’t expect, accept or demand an apology because firstly, it will be a political suicide for the current American government, secondly it goes against its policy to apologise to anyone. even its "cousins across the pond". let alone Pakistan. So none will come but if the unthinkable happens that’s not good enough because they wont mean it, We have lost 172 soldiers due to “friendly” fire and there is no telling if that apology will prevent a similar incident from happening in the future.

2. Expecting or accepting any money for the deaths will be shameful and the western media will mock us 24x7 and it will appear that no matter how much Pakistanis make a noise after any similar incidents, just throw some dollars and all will be fine.


So what do I propose?

1 Pakistan to announce withdrawal from the WT cooperation. Clouse of all covert and overt operations and bases in Pakistan. Stop providing the storage facilities and corridor for NATO supplies.

2 Stop all military operations that are ONLY meant to assist the Americans. And concentrate only on TTP and BLA.

3 Scale down the cooperation to a level of Turkey or Saudi Arabia. And help provide help in the political and peaceful resolution in Afghanistan for its stability that also indirectly helps the Americans to get out of Afghanistan sooner rather than later.

 

[CENTCOM]

It is understandable that in these types of personal and emotional situations, it is difficult to refrain from bias, as it is easier to find consolation in blaming the other side, than in thinking of a solution to a persistent problem. As difficult as it may seem to accept, the fact of the matter is that mistakes were made by both sides. The investigating officer’s findings revealed that the U.S forces were first fired upon, after which they demonstrated a warning signal through a fly by; however, they were still targeted. A show of force via a ISAF aircraft, in theory, should have informed the Pakistani troops that they were ISAF forces. To say that we deliberately or intentionally wanted to harm Pakistani troops or that we were on Pakistani soil is completely false. From our side, we have accepted our mistakes during this incident which resulted in the unfortunate death of Pakistani soldiers.

Time after time we have asked for increased border cooperation and coordination by all parties in order to avoid tragic incidents such as this one. These incidents can be avoided if we focus on improving and building trust in our relationship. We ask and remain hopeful that the Pakistani military will join us in working through loose ends that are hindering our joint efforts to disable terrorists from using the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan as a means of hiding and transporting transnational terrorism.

MAJ T.G.Taylor,
DET – U.S Central Command
U.S. Central Command

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan gets blamed and scape-goated for everything untowards that happens; isnt that emotional and bias as well

 

[SQ8]

A show of force via a ISAF aircraft, in theory, should have informed the Pakistani troops that they were ISAF forces.

IF the ISAF forces KNEW that those were Pakistani troops.. why keep attacking?
Moreover, if a return of fire was necessary.. was it also necessary to respond with maximum force? A bomb for a bullet?

 

[fd24]

IF the ISAF forces KNEW that those were Pakistani troops.. why keep attacking?
Moreover, if a return of fire was necessary.. was it also necessary to respond with maximum force? A bomb for a bullet?

The question of blue on blue is paramount and simply not brought to the table. You have hit the nail on the debt Santro - over 120 minutes of bombardment is an eternity in warfare - truly extraordinarily long time....why??