Turkic World Photos/News/Discussions.

[telkon]

@telkon

Tuvan, Hakas, Yakut etc. sounds so alien , are they seriously close to Krygyz ? I think they're also significiantly effected from Mongolian.

ahah, you again wrote kyrgyz wrong i can understand tuvan and hakas (somewhere around 70%), but yakut is hard to understand because they fell apart from general turkic mass and got isolated. and i think there's little mongolian influence on these languages.

 

[Targon]

ahah, you again wrote kyrgyz wrong i can understand tuvan and hakas (somewhere around 70%), but yakut is hard to understand because they fell apart from general turkic mass and got isolated. and i think there's little mongolian influence on these languages.

I remember seeing some Mongolian words in those throat singing videos, like Möngün for silver, I can't find the lyrics with translation otherwise I was gonna look more.

 

[Charon 2]

it doesn't have anything to do with religion. they were assimiliated not because they embraced christianity, but because there wasn't any new influx of people from their own ethnic background. great mugals were muslim, yet they were assimilated. have you ever wondered why so many anatolian seljuk sultans have persian names?

Kutalmışoğlu Süleyman Şah 1077-1086
I. Kılıç Arslan 1092-1107
Melikşah 1107-1116
I. Rükneddin Mesud 1116-1156
II. Kılıç Arslan 1156-1192
I. Gıyaseddin Keyhüsrev 1192-1196
II. Süleyman Şah 1196-1204
III. Kılıç Arslan 1204-1205
I. Gıyaseddin Keyhüsrev 1205-1211
I. İzzeddin Keykavus 1211-1220
I. Alaeddin Keykubad 1220-1237
II. Gıyaseddin Keyhüsrev 1237-1246
II. İzzeddin Keykavus 1246-1260
IV. Kılıç Arslan (Rükneddin) 1248-1265
II. Alaeddin Keykubad 1249-1257
III. Gıyaseddin Keyhüsrev 1265-1282
II. Gıyaseddin Mesud 1282-1284
III. Alaeddin Keykubad 1284
II. Gıyaseddin Mesud 1284-1293
III. Alaeddin Keykubad 1293-1294
II. Gıyaseddin Mesud 1294-1301
III. Alaeddin Keykubad 1301-1303
II. Gıyaseddin Mesud 1303-1307

if there wasn't a mongolian invasion in 13. century, which prompted huge migration of mostly tengrianist turkmens from greater horasan to anatolia, anatolian turks would speak persian and most probably call themselves persian. so, no need to go allah akbar.

Only the Seljuk rulers were Persianized. The nomadic and semi-nomadic Turkmen could still speak their native tongue and they didn't loose it till today. The Turkmen refugees fled from they Mongol invasion and the Seljuks allowed the fleeing Turkmens to settle in Anatolia. Besides that the Seljuks could still speak Turkish. This is well documented

The Mughals were another story because Babur himself was bilingual in Persian and he also had Persian ancestry as Timurs son Sharukh Khan had a Tajik mother. So they were never purely Turkic at the beginning unlike Seljuks, Ottomans

I'm not a Muslim myself but we must admit that Turkic peoples had their Golden Age with Islam and the Islamic superpowers like Ottomans, Safavids or Mughals, Seljuks, Timurids. Delhi Sultanates... which were all of Turkic origin. Seriously how big would be the Ummah if the Turks hadn't mass converted? The Balkan peninsula, Anatolia and the Indian subcontinent wouldn't have had a significant Muslim population. Turks were the biggest spreaders and supporters of Islam after Arabs. That's a historical truth

While Avars, Bulgars, Cumans, Pechenegs..., got linguistically assimilated by Slavs, who also Christianized them and they were forever forgotten ecxept in history books

 

[Alienoz_TR]

While Avars, Bulgars, Cumans, Pechenegs..., got linguistically assimilated by Slavs, who also Christianized them and they were forever forgotten ecxept in history books

I am proficient in Cuman tongue. It lives in the language of Tatars.

Btw You cant understand local Turkmen tongues of Anatolia.

 

[Charon 2]

I am proficient in Cuman tongue. It lives in the language of Tatars.

Btw You cant understand local Turkmen tongues of Anatolia.

No it doesn't. The Cuman language is extinct. The Tatar language as a Kipchak language is related to extinct Cuman but they were still not the same

 

[Alienoz_TR]

No it doesn't. The Cuman language is extinct. The Tatar language as a Kipchak language is related to extinct Cuman but they were still not the same

Modern Turkish is not the same as Early Anatolian Turkish. Precisely, modern Turkish is an artificial language as much as Ottoman language.

Tatar language is evolved from Cuman/Kypchak tongue. Mongol speaking Tatars gave their name to local Cumans, but languages lived with Cumans. One of the largest clan (we call as aymak) was Kypchak during the Crimean Khanate. They were the largest Along with the other clans such as Argyn, Baryn, Shyryn.

 

[Charon 2]

Modern Turkish is not the same as Early Anatolian Turkish. Precisely, modern Turkish is an artificial language as much as Ottoman language.

Tatar language is evolved from Cuman/Kypchak tongue. Mongol speaking Tatars gave their name to local Cumans, but languages lived with Cumans. One of the largest clan (we call as aymak) was Kypchak during the Crimean Khanate. They were the largest Along with the other clans such as Argyn, Baryn, Shyryn.

Yeah but the Cuman language is different than the Kipchak language. The modern Tatar, Kazakh, Kyrgyz language evolved from the Kipchak language.

The Cuman-Kipchaks were nomadic people that lived in the steppes of Eastern Europe, north of Black Sea before the Golden Horde. The languages that descended from ancient Cuman are Crimean Tatar, Karachay, Balkar andKumyk.

Don't confuse Crimean Tatars with Volga Tatars

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Yeah but the Cuman language is different than the Kipchak language. The modern Tatar, Kazakh, Kyrgyz language evolved from the Kipchak language.

The Cuman-Kipchaks were nomadic people that lived in the steppes of Eastern Europe, north of Black Sea before the Golden Horde. The languages that descended from ancient Cuman are Crimean Tatar, Karachay, Balkar andKumyk.

Don't confuse Crimean Tatars with Volga Tatars

The word Kuman comes from Kun-man, I am a Kun. Kuns were a nomadic tribe came with Kypchaks. They spoke same language. But different tribes.

The tongue of Codex Cumanicus is the same language which Crimean Tatars, Balkars, Karachays speak.

Btw I am a Tatar who can speak Kypchak tongue, and also can understand Desert Nogai tongue.

This is your extinct Kypchak tongue. Listen:

 

[telkon]

Only the Seljuk rulers were Persianized. The nomadic and semi-nomadic Turkmen could still speak their native tongue and they didn't loose it till today. The Turkmen refugees fled from they Mongol invasion and the Seljuks allowed the fleeing Turkmens to settle in Anatolia. Besides that the Seljuks could still speak Turkish. This is well documented

i didn't understand this part, so i'm skipping it.

The Mughals were another story because Babur himself was bilingual in Persian and he also had Persian ancestry as Timurs son Sharukh Khan had a Tajik mother. So they were never purely Turkic at the beginning unlike Seljuks, Ottomans

why is it different story? they were turks, they were muslims and they got assimilated. btw, babur was son of omar sheikh son of abu said son of muhammad son of miran son of timur. shahruh mirza was timur's fourth son, while miran was his third son.

I'm not a Muslim myself but we must admit that Turkic peoples had their Golden Age with Islam and the Islamic superpowers like Ottomans, Safavids or Mughals, Seljuks, Timurids. Delhi Sultanates... which were all of Turkic origin. Seriously how big would be the Ummah if the Turks hadn't mass converted? The Balkan peninsula, Anatolia and the Indian subcontinent wouldn't have had a significant Muslim population. Turks were the biggest spreaders and supporters of Islam after Arabs. That's a historical truth

what does it have to do with what i said? from my poing of view, greatest turkic empires were huns and göktürks, not these arabicized caliphs and whatnot, who didn't even call themselves turks. i'm talking about ottomans and later periods of great seljuks and anatolian seljuks. have you ever read any seljukname? i think you can find info on them in wikipedia LOL

While Avars, Bulgars, Cumans, Pechenegs..., got linguistically assimilated by Slavs, who also Christianized them and they were forever forgotten ecxept in history books

my original post explained why they got assimilated in the first place. seems like you have some comprehension problems. besides, crimean tatar are direct descendants of cumans and kipchaks with some admixture of other turkic groups and gagauz are descendants of pechenegs.

Chuvashs- Yes they are classified as Turkic people but seriously I understand Persian and Arabic better than Chuvash which sounds just as foreign to me like Chinese. They are the most numerous Christian Turkic people with 1,6 Million native speakers

Gagauz- They number only 200.000 people or something like that. They are also Christians

you answered it yourself. you don't understand it and other turkic languages because your language is tainted with arabic and persian. also, as of 2014 the population of chuvashs in chuvash republic is around 1.240.000 of which 58% are orthodox christians and they profess some pagan beliefs alongside christianity. also, if your assertion that christianity helped to eradicate turks was true, there shouldn't be any chuvash or gagauz left.

I remember seeing some Mongolian words in those throat singing videos, like Möngün for silver, I can't find the lyrics with translation otherwise I was gonna look more.

of course there would be loanwords both in turkic and mongolian languages. they've been neighbours for quite a long time. anatolian turkish borrowed many words from hungarian in just 2 or so centuries.

 

[Charon 2]

i didn't understand this part, so i'm skipping it.



why is it different story? they were turks, they were muslims and they got assimilated. btw, babur was son of omar sheikh son of abu said son of muhammad son of miran son of timur. shahruh mirza was timur's fourth son, while miran was his third son.



what does it have to do with what i said? from my poing of view, greatest turkic empires were huns and göktürks, not these arabicized caliphs and whatnot, who didn't even call themselves turks. i'm talking about ottomans and later periods of great seljuks and anatolian seljuks. have you ever read any seljukname? i think you can find info on them in wikipedia LOL




my original post explained why they got assimilated in the first place. seems like you have some comprehension problems. besides, crimean tatar are direct descendants of cumans and kipchaks with some admixture of other turkic groups and gagauz are descendants of pechenegs.




you answered it yourself. you don't understand it and other turkic languages because your language is tainted with arabic and persian. also, as of 2014 the population of chuvashs in chuvash republic is around 1.240.000 of which 58% are orthodox christians and they profess some pagan beliefs alongside christianity. also, if your assertion that christianity helped to eradicate turks was true, there shouldn't be any chuvash or gagauz left.



of course there would be loanwords both in turkic and mongolian languages. they've been neighbours for quite a long time. anatolian turkish borrowed many words from hungarian in just 2 or so centuries.

Yes but they weren't pure Turks unlike Ottomans or Seljuks in the beginning. Neither Osman nor Seljuk were bilingual in Persian unlike Babur the founder of the Mughal empire.

Gökturks and Huns were also nomadic empires who had nothing to do with Islamized empires of Turkic origin like Seljuks, Ottomans, Mughals... The problem here is that these Islamized Turkic dynasties had a greater impact on world history and also an greater impact on Turkic peoples than Huns or Gökturks.

The Oghur languages and Common Turkic languages broke off from each other around 500 BCE. The Chuvash language is the only survivor of the Oghur Turkic language.

The Oghur, or Bulgar languages (also spelled Ogur, Oghur,Oguric; Bulghar, Bolgar, and variants; also known as Lir-Turkic), are a branch of the Turkic language family. It was historically spoken in the Hunnic Empire, Old Great Bulgaria (Magna Bulgaria/Onoguria), and later in Danube Bulgar Khanate (Danube Bulgaria) and Volga Bulgaria. Its only extant member is theChuvash language. This branch arguably broke off from Common Turkic perhaps as early as 500 BCE.[2]

Turkic languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare Chuvash words with words from Common Turkic languages.

Chuvash (Чӑвашла, Căvašla; IPA: [tɕəʋaʂˈla])[3] is a Turkic language spoken in central Russia, primarily in the Chuvash Republic and adjacent areas. It is the only surviving member of theOghur branch of Turkic languages. While many Turkic languages demonstrate mutual intelligibility to varying degrees, Chuvash has diverged considerably from the other languages in the group.

Chuvash is the most distinctive of the Turkic languages and cannot be understood by speakers of other Turkic tongues. Today, Chuvash is classified, alongside Khazar, Turkic Avar, Bulgar, and (possibly) Hunnic, as a member of the Oghuricbranch of the Turkic language family. It is the only language of this family which is not extinct. The conclusion that Chuvash belongs to the Oghuric branch of Turkic arises from the reasoning that the vocabulary shows the language to belong to the r-and l- type which is typical for all languages of this branch. The rest of the Turkic languages (Common Turkic) are of the z-and š- type."[14]

Since the surviving literary records for the non-Chuvash members of Oghuric are scant, the exact position of Chuvash within the Oghuric family cannot be determined.

Formerly, scholars considered Chuvash not properly a Turkic language at all but, rather, a Turkicized Finno-Ugric (Uralic) language.[15]

We Anatolian Turks have nothing to do with Huns. Only Chuvashs can claim a relationship with Huns

 

[Targon]

@Charon 2

No bro, he has a point, the only reason why some non-muslim Turkics lost their identity is because they didn't had further Turkic supply from where they came, if Anatolia wasn't supplied by vast numbers of Turkmens in Mongol invasions, Seljuks would indeed be assimilated into a hybrid Persian/Greek culture(Yes Greek too), they indeed had some Turkic elements but how long it could endure ?

Only reason why they had more importance in world history is because they ruled over a region which was important for world history, if Göktürks instead of warring with China, full force moved into Middle East they would also have the same importance.

 

[Charon 2]

@Charon 2

No bro, he has a point, the only reason why some non-muslim Turkics lost their identity is because they didn't had further Turkic supply from where they came, if Anatolia wasn't supplied by vast numbers of Turkmens in Mongol invasions, Seljuks would indeed be assimilated into a hybrid Persian/Greek culture(Yes Greek too), they indeed had some Turkic elements but how long it could endure ?

Only reason why they had more importance in world history is because they ruled over a region which was important for world history, if Göktürks instead of warring with China, full force moved into Middle East they would also have the same importance.

How many Turkmens did actually migrate to Anatolia during the Mongol invasion? You must differate between the elite and the civilians. The ordinary Turkmen nomads never adopted Arabic or Persian. The Seljuk rulers adopted Persian as court language but I'm sure that they still could speak their native tongue. Turkic Bulgars were also the elite in the Bulgarian empire but the Slavic peasants were able to assimilate them as a whole group.

Göktürks actually tried to move to the Middle East but they were defeated twice by the Sassanids. They also clashed with the Umayyads but the Arabs emerged as victors. Of course all those failures could be explained by the Chinese threat and the civil wars which were every common among the Turkic Khaganate

 

[Targon]

How many Turkmens did actually migrate to Anatolia during the Mongol invasion? You must differate between the elite and the civilians. The ordinary Turkmen nomads never adopted Arabic or Persian. The Seljuk rulers adopted Persian as court language but I'm sure that they still could speak their native tongue. Turkic Bulgars were also the elite in the Bulgarian empire but the Slavic peasants were able to assimilate them as a whole group.

Göktürks actually tried to move to the Middle East but they were defeated twice by the Sassanids. They also clashed with the Umayyads but the Arabs emerged as victors. Of course all those failures could be explained by the Chinese threat and the civil wars which were every common among the Turkic Khaganate

Its actually very simple to understand, think of Avars, a Turkic speaking elite with probably ten thousands of ordinary people, cutting their tie from east and settling in Hungary, elite was probably first to adopt surrounding languages, but ordinary people can't endure long as well, after a period of living together and intermarrying they would also assimilated because their numbers were not enough to be a dominating ethnicity in Hungary

Before 13th century, number of Turkmens in Anatolia was relatively small, they weren't a dominating ethnicity, while there are indeed signs of Seljuks vaguely retaining Turkish as a spoken language they were already on their way to be assimilated into a kind Perso-Muslim/Byzantine society, many of their decrees and inscriptions were already in Persian, Arabic and "Greek" , Greek was probably one of the daily spoken languages as well, beside slave soldiers and educated Persian/Arabic speaking elites, locals were also actively in the state system, if thats the situation in the state how do you expect some thousands of Turkmens to retain their language and culture ? considering they wree probably not united and lived close, it was just a matter of time.

Unlike what some people think, great steppe states were not merely a bunch of crazy tribal nomads, they had proper court system and order, they had officials, their military system was probably even more organized and disciplined then many of the settled civilizations, their most important problem was succession and civil wars, leaders weren't ruling over a bunch of poor subjects but almost equally strong tribes which were barely subjugated by power, if leader gets weaker they were ready to revolt, if lets say Göktürks had a permenent dynasty which was respected and accepted by everyone and they had a succesion system which leaves no place to disputes, they would be one of the major powers for centuries. Neither Seljuks solved this problem as they're quickly fell in to pieces, Ottomans could be same but they introduced a violent but effective system as you know.

 

[telkon]

Yes but they weren't pure Turks unlike Ottomans or Seljuks in the beginning. Neither Osman nor Seljuk were bilingual in Persian unlike Babur the founder of the Mughal empire.

Gökturks and Huns were also nomadic empires who had nothing to do with Islamized empires of Turkic origin like Seljuks, Ottomans, Mughals... The problem here is that these Islamized Turkic dynasties had a greater impact on world history and also an greater impact on Turkic peoples than Huns or Gökturks.

We Anatolian Turks have nothing to do with Huns. Only Chuvashs can claim a relationship with Huns

LOL i know english and russian, therefore i'm not pure turkic?

göktürks and huns have everything to do with seljuks and early periods of ottomans. oğuz states are the continuation of steppe empire culture and civilization. göktürks shaped the very essense of turks. and ottomans and seljuks ruled over persian and arabic population, while mughals ruled over god knows what. their impact was next to zero on turkics, unlike other turkic states out there. you don't think that seljuks were brought to earth by aliens, right? oğuz can be traced to tiele, who were the very building stones of göktürks. and btw i don't mean european huns, but asian. i felt the urge to point that out because i don't want you to copy-paste wikipedia pages, again LOL
lastly, all turks are connected with european huns. they emerged as late as second half of 4.century AD. you think they fell from the sky?

Unlike what some people think, great steppe states were not merely a bunch of crazy tribal nomads, they had proper court system and order, they had officials, their military system was probably even more organized and disciplined then many of the settled civilizations, their most important problem was succession and civil wars, leaders weren't ruling over a bunch of poor subjects but almost equally strong tribes which were barely subjugated by power, if leader gets weaker they were ready to revolt, if lets say Göktürks had a permenent dynasty which was respected and accepted by everyone and they had a succesion system which leaves no place to disputes, they would be one of the major powers for centuries. Neither Seljuks solved this problem as they're quickly fell in to pieces, Ottomans could be same but they introduced a violent but effective system as you know.

naah, before islam turks were a bunch of barbarians

the problem of succession was the greatest enemy of turks for like forever. wei of china tried to solve this problem by introducing chinese style aristocracy, but the notion among steppe people that only the capable and talented can rule over people prevented that from happening. tribes revolted and wei kingdom collapsed. in this context, ottomans' success is really worth admiration.

P.S. it is estimated that around 700-800k oğuz turks entered anatolia after malazgirt. at that time, population of anatolia was approx. 9-10 million. after mongol invasions, another 1.4-1.6 million oğuz entered anatolia.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

How many Turkmens did actually migrate to Anatolia during the Mongol invasion? You must differate between the elite and the civilians. The ordinary Turkmen nomads never adopted Arabic or Persian. The Seljuk rulers adopted Persian as court language but I'm sure that they still could speak their native tongue. Turkic Bulgars were also the elite in the Bulgarian empire but the Slavic peasants were able to assimilate them as a whole group.

Göktürks actually tried to move to the Middle East but they were defeated twice by the Sassanids. They also clashed with the Umayyads but the Arabs emerged as victors. Of course all those failures could be explained by the Chinese threat and the civil wars which were every common among the Turkic Khaganate

Court language means the language of official documents. In Middleast during middle ages, it was either Arabic or Persian on documents.

Turks didnt develop a written form of Turkic language based on Arabic script until late Anatolian beylik times.

Turks were using Uyghur script in Asia. But when illiterate, nomadic Seljuks invaded ME, they adopted Arabic script. Because they never wrote ever, and they never took Uyghur script because of their illiteracy, peasantry.