Turkey rejects labelling the International Union of Scholars as a ‘Terrorist Organisation’

[HannibalBarca]

What kind of nonsense is that? My family (paternal) is from Makkah and I consider it as my city. Makkah has an 4000 year old history if not a 5000 year old. Makkah is a Hijazi city. It's not an African or Anatolian city let alone a Sri Lankan one.

Don't mix up religion with history, demographics or actual geography. There is a difference between Al-Masjid al-Haram (the most holy site in Islam) and the city and the native people.

Well, your opinion does not matter the slightest. The current government are sons of Arabia and they have 1000 times more legitimacy than a foreign dynasty would have or some "elected" foreign leader.

Don't spread nonsense. KSA turned Makkah and Madinah into top modern cities (an ongoing process) that will serve 10.000 times more pilgrims than just 5 decades ago.

Well, I have breaking news for you. KSA (nation state) is no different to any nation state, including your country of origin (Tunisia) or your country of residence (France) so please cut the comedy and try to convince some ignorant drone instead of your 'unbiased' and 'wise' words.

See... you didn't understand the view of the subject...
Anyway... it's not like I wish to change your mind or push you to view things on a different prism...

Best regards.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Every religious institution, group or organization that is withstanding or fighting against the revivalist/Wahhabi version of the Saudi/GCC Islam cannot be considered "terrorist"; in fact, even we liberal Muslims have to support them. In this sense, the Turkish government made a right choice. Objecting the Saudi version of Islam on all levels should be a common goal for all righteous Muslims regardless of the confession.

EDIT//
No wonder Saudi Arabia wants them to be labeled as "terrorist".

There are at least 90,000 Muslim scholars to be found in the union, who claim to bring together Sunni, Shia, and Ibadi Muslims.[1] According to Islamopedia, "membership in the Union is open for scholars who graduated from shariah universities and Islamic Studies departments at various universities or have a relevant background."[2] They also accept all of those who care of and attend to the sciences of Shari’ah and Islamic Civilization, who have significant writings in the field, or have contributed to some tangible activity thereof.[3] According to the IUMS website the IUMS does not follow any certain country, group, or sect. It is not hostile to governments, but rather seeks to open windows of cooperation for the good of Islam and Muslims.[3][4]

 

[Saif al-Arab]

See... you didn't understand the view of the subject...
Anyway... it's not like I wish to change your mind or push you to view things on a different prism...

Best regards.

I understand it fully well.

You want to deny us locals of our city, history, population and want us to be ruled by foreigners just because we do not deserve to rule our own land according to you, an foreigner. Or just because you dislike an government that are sons of the soil regardless of how good or bad they are.

You believe that you have ownership of Makkah and Madinah because you share a religion with us. Using your logic some Mongolian convert will claim Makkah and Madinah (Hijaz in general) next and tell us locals what to do.

Kindly **** off with such kind of rhetoric. You are not going to fool anyone here and "anyone" here being locals as we are the only ones that matter in this context.

Every religious institution, group or organization that is withstanding or fighting against the revivalist/Wahhabi version of the Saudi/GCC Islam cannot be considered "terrorist"; in fact, even we liberal Muslims have to support them. In this sense, the Turkish government made a right choice. Objecting the Saudi version of Islam on all levels should be a common goal for all righteous Muslims regardless of the confession.

Well, KSA is the cradle of Islam and all the Islamic sects are home indigenously to KSA unlike any other Muslim group. The Islam that you supposedly follow is native to KSA, not Turkey. Please tell me where Sufism originates from while we are it it. HiJ, yes, Hijaz.

Secondly there is nothing called "Wahhabism". It is the Hanbali fiqh, one of the 4 recognized Sunni madahib. A minority of people in KSA are Hanbalis.

Thirdly, yes, an organization that is headed by Qatar (100% Hanbalis - thus same "ideology" as KSA) and headed by a scholar who openly supports suicide bombings, is "progressive". What a joke.

I know that you could not care less about religion but understand that your Erdogan MB project in the Arab world failed spectacularly and his idea of creating pro-Turkish (AKP) proxies. This is what really bothers you. Because the reality is that KSA is no longer the same KSA as just a few years ago and that MbS will deal with the Mullah outcasts that are now hosted by Qatar and to a smaller degree Turkey (MB etc.). That probably also bothers you.

 

[HannibalBarca]

I understand it fully well.

You want to deny us locals of our city, history, population and want us to be ruled by foreigners just because we do not deserve to rule our own land according to you, an foreigner. Or just because you dislike an government that are sons of the soil regardless of how good or bad they are.

You believe that you have ownership of Makkah and Madinah because you share a religion with us. Using your logic some Mongolian convert will claim Makkah and Madinah (Hijaz in general) next and tell us locals what to do.

Kindly **** off with such kind of rhetoric. You are not going to fool anyone here and "anyone" here being locals as we are the only ones that matter in this context.

Still... you didn't understand it...
Try to re-read my post.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

I understand it fully well.

You want to deny us locals of our city, history, population and want us to be ruled by foreigners just because we do not deserve to rule our own land according to you, an foreigner. Or just because you dislike an government that are sons of the soil regardless of how good or bad they are.

You believe that you have ownership of Makkah and Madinah because you share a religion with us. Using your logic some Mongolian convert will claim Makkah and Madinah (Hijaz in general) next and tell us locals what to do.

Kindly **** off with such kind of rhetoric. You are not going to fool anyone here and "anyone" here being locals as we are the only ones that matter in this context.



Well, KSA is the cradle of Islam and all the Islamic sects are home indigenously to KSA unlike any other Muslim group. The Islam that you supposedly follow is native to KSA, not Turkey.

Secondly there is nothing called "Wahhabism". It is the Hanbali fiqh, one of the 4 recognized Sunni madahib. A minority of people in KSA are Hanbalis.

Thirdly, yes, an organization that is headed by Qatar (100% Hanbalis - thus same "ideology" as KSA) and headed by a scholar who openly supports suicide bombings, is "progressive". What a joke.

Islam speaks in Arabic to us; but not every Arab speaks and acts like a Muslim should do. Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia are proving my point.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Islam speaks in Arab to us; but not every Arab speaks and acts like a Muslim should do. Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia are proving my point.

Useless one-liners expose you as they prove that you have nothing to add and cannot counter any of my factual points.

Yes, the only righteous "Muslim" government is that of Erdogan. The pro-Israeli, the NATO member the populist, the hypocritical etc.

In fact we do not need to know more as you have already written everything. You consider a group composed of controversial figures and headed by a cleric that openly supports suicide bombings for "progressive" albeit we all know that you could not care less about religion as most Turks. You are interested in Turkey gaining more influence rather than religion but you are using the rhetoric that you are using to rally innocent Pakistanis (mostly Islamists here on PDF) and others against Arabs (that are supposedly deemed not Muslim enough or too Western or whatever nonsense - totally ridiculous when you are a Turk but whatever) although this will fail and already has failed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/935508243899731968

Of course you cannot say anything else as your country is hosting MB terrorists while we speak and aids anti-Egyptian and airs anti-Arab government propaganda from channels operating inside Turkey with the blessing of Erdogan. We all know what happens in Turkey to those criticizing Erdogan the Sultan (great Arabic title).

Anyway this is a fruitless discussion. Turkey actually befriending Qatar, MB and supporting their agenda is good news for KSA and most Arab governments as this will not give Turkey anything but trouble. As it already has. KSA should be happy actually. Similar to Erdogan's constant instability (that he creates) within Turkey and inconsistent policies.

 

[Azadkashmir]

Saudis family are more Jewish than Rothschild. I like to say Sorry to all arab members but your leaders were put there by British Rothschild empire. Since that time, have served western interest to this day maybe except king Faisal but he had to go. They are from najd. They along with israel, usa, funded isis aka al bagdady mossad agent simon elliot, and Muslims get blamed.
Now they want to help israel/usa to invade iran and call them kafir, the ultimate agenda of the Rothschild luciferian dajjal. All for greater Israel expansion.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

I don't care about Erdogan, tbh. He is just a figure in our contemporary domestic politics. He will leave the political arena eventually. I'm just sick of your self delusion.

Useless one-liners expose you as they prove that you have nothing to add and cannot counter any of my factual points.

Yes, the only righteous "Muslim" government is that of Erdogan. The pro-Israeli, the NATO member the populist, the hypocritical etc.

In fact we do not need to know more as you have already written everything. You consider a group composed of controversial figures and headed by a cleric that openly supports suicide bombings for "progressive" albeit we all know that you could not care less about religion as most Turks. You are interested in Turkey gaining more influence rather than religion but you are using the rhetoric that you are using to rally innocent Pakistanis (mostly Islamists here on PDF) and others against Arabs (that are supposedly deemed not Muslim enough or too Western or whatever nonsense - totally ridiculous when you are a Turk but whatever) although this will fail and already has failed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/935508243899731968

Of course you cannot say anything else as your country is hosting MB terrorists while we speak and aids anti-Egyptian and airs anti-Arab government propaganda from channels operating inside Turkey with the blessing of Erdogan. We all know what happens in Turkey to those criticizing Erdogan the Sultan (great Arabic title).

Anyway this is a fruitless discussion. Turkey actually befriending Qatar, MB and supporting their agenda is good news for KSA and most Arab governments as this will not give Turkey anything but trouble. As it already has. KSA should be happy actually. Similar to Erdogan's constant instability (that he creates) within Turkey and inconsistent policies.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I don't care about Erdogan, tbh. He is just a figure in our contemporary domestic politics. He will leave the political arena eventually. I'm just sick of your self delusion.

More useless one-liners. This has become a tradition of yours when you cannot counter the facts that I write. You know that I am right as well.

Unlike you though I am not bullshitting and quite frank and open in my views and I say things like they are. I am not trying to sugarcoat in order to please various groups here on PDF. My arguments stand on their own merits.

Self-delusion is denying facts. Self-delusion is claiming that an organization supported by Qatar (basically run by them), headed by one of the most controversial Muslim clerics in the world, a cleric that openly supports suicide bombings (how progressive) is a progressive organization.

Self-delusion is denying AKP's wet and failed dream of using MB and other Islamist movements in the Arab world in order to create a proxy or some kind of reliable partner. That is the only reason why your country (Turkey) under Erdogan has a fetish for Qatar. Because the same Qatar has betted on the same losing horse. Now when in a losing position, those two have joined hands.

Because the reality is that one emirate in UAE alone (let alone all of UAE) could offer more to Turkey than Qatar let alone all of the GCC, not to mention KSA.

But Erdogan has a tradition of creating foreign policy blunders in the past few years (Iraq and Syria being the prime examples along with Egypt) so of course we can expect him to switch sides and views every moment and when that happens you will parrot the new view blindly while pretending to be a progressive and liberal Muslim based in the West. As if there is anything progressive about AKP or Kemalism for that matter although I have seen you criticize the latter.

Now try to deny what I wrote above of facts or maybe writing "Wahhabis" will help you out?

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Well, KSA is the cradle of Islam and [...]

Just bear in mind that before becoming the birth place of Islam, Saudi Arabia was also the cradle of Jahiliyyah.

What bothers me most is that on a non-political, personal level you might be one of those Saudis who would make us non-Saudi Muslims hope about the future of Saudi Arabia. However, all of your education hasn't gave you the ability to think critical for once. In a very ironic and sad way at the same time, you are the actual reflection of Saudi Arabia's societal state of affairs: young but backward, educated but not enlighted, Arabic without having understood Islam etc.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Just bear in mind that before becoming the birth place of Islam, Saudi Arabia was also the cradle of Jahiliyyah.

What bothers me most is that on a non-political, personal level you might be one of those Saudis who would make us non-Saudi Muslims hope about the future of Saudi Arabia. However, all of your education hasn't gave you the ability to think critical for once. In a very ironic and sad way at the same time, you are the actual reflection of Saudi Arabia's societal state of affairs: young but backward, educated but not enlighted, Arab without having understood Islam etc.

You, mean the same supposed Jahiliyyah that was present everywhere else and even to a larger degree as KSA at least had large Christian, Jewish and Hanif minorities while many regions of the Muslim world had neither?

Well, I am afraid to tell you this but KSA is already (as in people) one of the most progressive, most educated, most-travelled and most achieving (compared to population size) Muslim groups in the world. In fact we are the ones that should wish all the best for most of the Muslim world as we are ahead on most fronts. This might sound arrogant but it is the reality. What has kept KSA behind is not the people but the system (that MbS is destroying for the better while we speak due to pressure from the people and ground realities that have proven the system wrong) and a small minority of powerful conservative clerics who are completely not in touch with the youth of KSA (70% of the people). This is confirmed by the 100.000's of Saudi Arabian students (of all backgrounds, from all sects, from all regions of KSA) that have studied and lived from the US to New Zealand.

Well, as for your useless characterization, I could easily say the same about you and @HannibalBarca who thanked your post. It's very easy in fact. However empty words not substantiated by actual arguments are useless.

As for backward, enlightened, not understanding Islam, I am willing to bet my two crowns down below, that I am far ahead of you on all those accounts. Especially if the average Turkish (mostly of Anatolian village background) migrant in the Netherlands or Germany is the bench mark.

I could say the same thing about Arab Maghrebis, mostly based in banlieues in France and Belgium.

BTW trying to change the topic of discussion due to an inability to counter your opponents arguments, label a person that you have no clue about, never met and never will meet (most likely) etc. various "ills" is the sign of an inability to argue the points of the discussion.

 

[Mitro]

Killer of Muslim in Mecca and Medina is near in sha Allah and it’s wahabia government.

 

[The SC]

Every religious institution, group or organization that is withstanding or fighting against the revivalist/Wahhabi version of the Saudi/GCC Islam cannot be considered "terrorist"; in fact, even we liberal Muslims have to support them. In this sense, the Turkish government made a right choice. Objecting the Saudi version of Islam on all levels should be a common goal for all righteous Muslims regardless of the confession.

EDIT//
No wonder Saudi Arabia wants them to be labeled as "terrorist".

There are at least 90,000 Muslim scholars to be found in the union, who claim to bring together Sunni, Shia, and Ibadi Muslims.[1] According to Islamopedia, "membership in the Union is open for scholars who graduated from shariah universities and Islamic Studies departments at various universities or have a relevant background."[2] They also accept all of those who care of and attend to the sciences of Shari’ah and Islamic Civilization, who have significant writings in the field, or have contributed to some tangible activity thereof.[3] According to the IUMS website the IUMS does not follow any certain country, group, or sect. It is not hostile to governments, but rather seeks to open windows of cooperation for the good of Islam and Muslims.[3][4]

The majority of these "Scholars" were just wasting their time in those universities.. 10 000 elite scholars would have been more than enough to cover the Muslim world needs.. in any case they will never be able to analyse or conclude on Islam better than what have been done centuries ago.. they are needed to reinforce those deep understandings of Islam..nothing more..
I am neutral on this decision by KSA because I do not know yet the motivation behind it..but
It seems _according to your posts_ that Turkish Islam is the real Islam.. and Saudi Islam is wrong.. I will ask you gently to come back to your senses..

 

[mohd497]

You, mean the same supposed Jahiliyyah that was present everywhere else and even to a larger degree as KSA at least had large Christian, Jewish and Hanif minorities while many regions of the Muslim world had neither?

Well, I am afraid to tell you this but KSA is already (as in people) one of the most progressive, most educated, most-travelled and most achieving (compared to population size) Muslim groups in the world. In fact we are the ones that should wish all the best for most of the Muslim world as we are ahead on most fronts. This might sound arrogant but it is the reality. What has kept KSA behind is not the people but the system (that MbS is destroying for the better while we speak due to pressure from the people and ground realities that have proven the system wrong) and a small minority of powerful conservative clerics who are completely not in touch with the youth of KSA (70% of the people). This is confirmed by the 100.000's of Saudi Arabian students (of all backgrounds, from all sects, from all regions of KSA) that have studied and lived from the US to New Zealand.

Well, as for your useless characterization, I could easily say the same about you and @HannibalBarca who thanked your post. It's very easy in fact. However empty words not substantiated by actual arguments are useless.

As for backward, enlightened, not understanding Islam, I am willing to bet my two crowns down below, that I am far ahead of you on all those accounts. Especially if the average Turkish (mostly of Anatolian village background) migrant in the Netherlands or Germany is the bench mark.

I could say the same thing about Arab Maghrebis, mostly based in banlieues in France and Belgium.

BTW trying to change the topic of discussion due to an inability to counter your opponents arguments, label a person that you have no clue about, never met and never will meet (most likely) etc. various "ills" is the sign of an inability to argue the points of the discussion.

Agree to some extend. Saudi arabia is moving forward now if what you wrote is true.

Western education do have this effects. A person change his views to nationalistic one forgeting about the past glory which was achieved by islam not through US/ new zealand education.

 

[war&peace]

Mecca is occupied my friend, sad truth.

I used to think that end times are still far and

Yes, locals ruling Makkah and Madinah (as for 3000 + years in a row) and during the Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid and Famitid and even Ottoman (The Sharifate of Makkah ruled directly and de facto) are "occupiers". On the other hand people claiming to be from Central Asia and who embraced Islam thanks to those same Arabs, are "locals".

In alternative universe maybe but nothing else is to be expected from a Erdogan drone.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

Al-Qaeda was created in Afghanistan by a half Yemeni and half Syrian (OBL) that was stripped off his citizenship (that he only gained due to his father's connections with the House of Saud) in 1994 way before any Al-Qaeda terrorism. The spiritual founder of Al-Qaeda was OBL's spiritual leader Abdullah Azzam who was Palestinian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Azzam

OBL's personal notes have proved that he was heavily inspired by MB and that he considered Al-Jazeera as the best channel.

An article from 2012;

http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/10/03/osama-bin-laden-and-the-saudi-muslim-brotherhood/

An article from this year after the exposure;

https://www.thenational.ae/world/th...was-shaped-by-the-muslim-brotherhood-1.672646

15 indivduals (mostly of Yemeni origin and picked by OBL himself due to tribal loyalty) are 15 individuals acting on their own behalf and not that of a country let alone KSA. Since the 1970's almost 500.000 Saudi Arabians have been studying in the US. How many terrorist attacks were made by them apart from 9/11. I will tell you. Zero.

Same can be said about the Egyptian, Emirati and Lebanese individual (s).

BTW I thought that anti-Western Islamists would be happy when the West is targeted, after all this is what many of them dream about. Is that not why pro-Iran Shia Islamists are having seizures each time Iran threatens (but never acts) against the West?

Yes, an organization that is headed by a cleric that openly supports suicide bombings and violence in numerous Arab countries, is not composed of controversial figures at all.

How many Pakistani suicide bombers have blown themselves up in Pakistan? How can you support clerics that support such un-Islamic filth?

These are some interesting facts.