To people who say that "communists" destroyed democracy in China

[Paul2]

To people who tend dismissively shift the blame for ills befalling on China on the CPC. I want to say, please read some history books. Your rightist "liberals" of nineteen-thirties played a farce. They share as much blame, if not more.

I long wanted to write about the last days of the Beijing government in thirties, and not in its defence. I want to give a lesson to anybody wanting to rehabilitate that bunch, moreover repeat their mistakes.

This is to people who rave in this topic: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-and-democracy.670304, and who played 14 pages of mindgames, and farce in the "alternative history" topic in January.


Let's go.

People say CPC destroyed democracy in China, but those forgot that there was no functioning popularly elected parliament in China for more than a decade by the time PLA seized Beijing.

Who you think destroyed the original Chinese republic? It was your rightist uncle Jiang, who seized the reign over Beijing government under a gunpoint. By the time PLA marched into BJ, nationalist government there was already in a defunct state. And even before Jiang's takeover, it wasn't doing much better either.

The original Guomindang has died when Jiang destroyed the Canton Soviet, and Shanghai Commune in 1926-1928. It shattered the popular wing, and tore GMD onto right, and left, giving Jiang a free reign amid the confrontation he created.

By 1930, Jiang has purged GMD of all popular factions, and from that time on it was just him, the green gang, and plain criminals, with last few vestiges of popular rightist factions who were such jokes that they weren't even worth purging for Jiang.

People like that had no mandate to form the popular government to begin with. Try disapproving this argument if you dare. There was no more legitimacy to the kleptogangs who ran Beijing national assembly at the time than in some Bantustan parliament.

The rest of GMD popular wing has split into 10+ factions, and mostly perished. Some lived to this day in America and they keep sending letters with curses to GMD in Taiwan on every double ten.

--------

Now think, you think the people who tell that heavenly manna will fall upon us the moment they will hold a popular election never read history books? No, they did, and I bet they have this exactly in mind.

If those guys stage some putsch in the Party, and run popular elections overnight, they may well claim a nominally "democratic" rule. Would it be a genuine popular regime? Hell no.

People who conspire with rightist element in the Party with hopes of them bringing back any semblance of the late republican rule in any shape or form, and thinking anything good coming out of it, can't be making a bigger mistake.

There are hundreds of wannabe uncle Jiangs now coming to prominence in the Party, waiting for such gullible people to hand them the country.

If China is to embrace a popular rule, we are more likely to come to it with just anybody, but not the current wave of those petty rightists.

Believing those people who claim they can make a functioning, popular government in China overnight if you hand them the power, is no different from giving your money to people claiming triple digit interest in some scam financial scheme. Freedom, dignity, and money, all come through hard work, no magic trick for that. Anybody claiming otherwise is a plain fraud.

 

[vi-va]

I don't care. 99.99% none Chinese don't understand China at all. 0.01% none Chinese understand a little bit, and biased.

Most people in the world are like sheep, they followed whatever stuff fed into their brain, either by MSM, or social media.

When I was at age 20s, I was naive too. Until I came to US, damn. Reality is best wake up call.

Btw. No matter whatever killed so called western liberal democracy in China, I applause to it. Otherwise, China collapsed many years ago.


If China do applied western liberal democracy, we are doomed. Our future will not be a bigger India. Not possible. Unlike India, protected by Sea and Himalayas, far from USSR and US, China was surrounded by too super power. China has no future when your neighbor are 2 super power.

The current system is the best system to make us survive and be prosper.

 

[vi-va]

To people who tend dismissively shift the blame for ills befalling on China on the CPC. I want to say, please read some history books. Your rightist "liberals" of nineteen-thirties played a farce. They share as much blame, if not more.

I long wanted to write about the last days of the Beijing government in thirties, and not in its defence. I want to give a lesson to anybody wanting to rehabilitate that bunch, moreover repeat their mistakes.

This is to people who rave in this topic: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-and-democracy.670304, and who played 14 pages of mindgames, and farce in the "alternative history" topic in January.


Let's go.

People say CPC destroyed democracy in China, but those forgot that there was no functioning popularly elected parliament in China for more than a decade by the time PLA seized Beijing.

Who you think destroyed the original Chinese republic? It was your rightist uncle Jiang, who seized the reign over Beijing government under a gunpoint. By the time PLA marched into BJ, nationalist government there was already in a defunct state. And even before Jiang's takeover, it wasn't doing much better either.

The original Guomindang has died when Jiang destroyed the Canton Soviet, and Shanghai Commune in 1926-1928. It shattered the popular wing, and tore GMD onto right, and left, giving Jiang a free reign amid the confrontation he created.

By 1930, Jiang has purged GMD of all popular factions, and from that time on it was just him, the green gang, and plain criminals, with last few vestiges of popular rightist factions who were such jokes that they weren't even worth purging for Jiang.

People like that had no mandate to form the popular government to begin with. Try disapproving this argument if you dare. There was no more legitimacy in the kleptogangs who ran Beijing national assembly at the time than in some Bantustan parliament.

The rest of GMD popular wing has split into 10+ factions, and mostly perished. Some lived to this day in America and they keep sending letters with curses to GMD in Taiwan on every double ten.

--------

Now think, you think the people who tell that heavenly manna will fall upon us the moment they will hold a popular election never read history books? No, they did, and I bet they have this exactly in mind.

If those guys stage some putsch in the Party, and run popular elections overnight, they may well claim a nominally "democratic" rule. Would it be a genuine popular regime? Hell no.

People who conspire with rightist element in the Party with hopes of them bringing back any semblance of the late republican rule in any shape or form, and thinking anything good coming out of it, can't be making a bigger mistake.

There are hundreds of wannabe uncle Jiangs now coming to prominence in the Party, waiting for such gullible people to hand them the country.

If China is to embrace a popular rule, we are more likely to come to it with just anybody, but not the current wave of those petty rightists.

Believing those people who claim they can make a functioning, popular government in China overnight if you hand them the power, is no different from giving your money to people claiming triple digit interest in some scam financial scheme. Freedom, dignity, and money, all come through hard work, no magic trick for that. Anybody claiming otherwise is a plain fraud.

recommend 《党员、党权与党争 - 1924-1949年中国国民党的组织形态》, best book ever to understand KMT history in my opinion.
If you are interest in CCP history, one of the book I recommend from 高华。 I disagree with his ideology preference, but I respect his research, very deep and comprehensive research materials.

The first turn point as you pointed out is, Purge under Jiang. It destroyed everything, leftover is nothing but plutocracy, warlord and factions.

Second turn point is inner fighting, 力行社 and CC系(陈果夫、陈立夫)。

Third one is power base eroded. Ideology collapsed, so party can only sustain herself by military and money.

I am done with it, wrong place to discuss this as they don't care.

 

[Paul2]

I don't care. 99.99% none Chinese don't understand China at all. 0.01% none Chinese understand a little bit, and biased.

Most people in the world are like sheep, they followed whatever stuff fed into their brain, either by MSM, or social media.

When I was at age 20s, I was naive too. Until I came to US, damn. Reality is best wake up call.

Btw. No matter whatever killed so called western liberal democracy in China, I applause to it. Otherwise, China collapsed many years ago.


If China do applied western liberal democracy, we are doomed. Our future will not be a bigger India. Not possible. Unlike India, protected by Sea and Himalayas, far from USSR and US, China was surrounded by too super power. China has no future when your neighbor are 2 super power.

The current system is the best system to make us survive and be prosper.

I know a number of people with cushy government jobs, with whom I am kind of a childhood friend. They are constantly quietly bitching about the current state of the Party. They can't help but drink, and lament of us not being able to live like in normal countries.

The two had the best marks, and GK results in my secondary (with me coming third,) both thought in their youth of becoming "big men" through acing the exams, doing civil service, and getting a high post where "bigness," fame, and money should've befallen upon them.

I tell them "if you are such a big man you think you are, why can't you do anything about it with your government job?" He may well soon be the youngest section chief around, and still can do nothing.

If you want change so much, your best bet is to join the party, get into the thick of it. Take the fight there, seize the power, and be prepared to part with your head while trying.

People like that fail to realise the problem is them. 30 millions government officers, and party middle rank functionaries. All want cushy government jobs, government Audi, shoulder boards, big titles, and none of the burden.

They had 10 years to make China a normal country under Hu, and Wen, and not backstabbing them instead, and sabotaging their reforms.

Second generation reds, kids of "elders," the "hardline" left camp all sat that 10 years having their hand in every money making opportunity in the country, and every matter of lobby politics. They could've moved mountains. Instead they fought the few worthy people in the party, and put Xi on the throne in hopes of riding him like they rode Hu.

Now they are the ones screaming murder when it is them getting purged. They didn't do so when their guobao was running the shop: stealing land from villages, kidnapping union leaders, busting petitioners, using their own sham corruption trials for power grabs, and generally making life bad for people genuinely wanting to stop their deeds, and fix the country.

When their *** is on fire, everybody becomes a liberal.

It's not a coincidence that it's Ren Zhiqiang, who is 100% a member of that old'boys club, who is making a story out of this now.

 

[Viva_Viet]

I don't care. 99.99% none Chinese don't understand China at all. 0.01% none Chinese understand a little bit, and biased.

Most people in the world are like sheep, they followed whatever stuff fed into their brain, either by MSM, or social media.

When I was at age 20s, I was naive too. Until I came to US, damn. Reality is best wake up call.

Btw. No matter whatever killed so called western liberal democracy in China, I applause to it. Otherwise, China collapsed many years ago.


If China do applied western liberal democracy, we are doomed. Our future will not be a bigger India. Not possible. Unlike India, protected by Sea and Himalayas, far from USSR and US, China was surrounded by too super power. China has no future when your neighbor are 2 super power.

The current system is the best system to make us survive and be prosper.

Best system wt 600 millions poor starving Cnese as premier Li admit plus abt 205 millions jobless Cnese??

Still the best cos there r abt 600 millions Cnese still have good lives making money by exploiting those 600 millions poor and 205 millions jobles Cnese ?

 

[Beast]

Best system wt 600 millions poor starving Cnese as premier Li admit plus abt 205 millions jobless Cnese??

Still the best cos there r abt 600 millions Cnese still have good lives making money by exploiting those 600 millions poor and 205 millions jobles Cnese ?

Blah blah blah, we are still richer than you and technological superior. We send rover to moon and what have Vietnam send? Maybe a fart

 

[grandmaster]

Best system wt 600 millions poor starving Cnese as premier Li admit plus abt 205 millions jobless Cnese??

Still the best cos there r abt 600 millions Cnese still have good lives making money by exploiting those 600 millions poor and 205 millions jobles Cnese ?

the words of a jealous person

 

[Beast]

the words of a jealous person

This is their only way to ease the pain of watching rising China everyday.

 

[grandmaster]

This is their only way to ease the pain of watching rising China everyday.

He has no brain person. he thinks that he spits saliva onto the sky and the sky would be dirty.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Blah blah blah, we are still richer than you and technological superior. We send rover to moon and what have Vietnam send? Maybe a fart

Bcs u begged daddy Jap help in 1979. But still have 600 starving Cnese earning less than 140usd per month as premier Li admit, plus 205 millions jobless Cnese due to trade war and Covid.

Thats so pathetic for a 1979 beggar

 

[Mista]

I know a number of people with cushy government jobs, with whom I am kind of a childhood friend. They are constantly quietly bitching about the current state of the Party. The can't help but drink, and lament of us not being able to live like in normal countries.

The two had the best marks, and GK results in my secondary (with me coming third,) both thought in their youth of becoming "big men" through acing the exams, doing civil service, and getting a high post where "bigness," fame, and money should've befallen upon them.

I tell them "if you are such a big man you think you are, why can't you do anything about it with your government job?" He may well soon be the youngest section chief around, and still can do nothing.

If you want change so much, your best bet is to join the party, get into the thick of it. Take the fight there, seize the power, and be prepared to part with your head while trying.

People like that fail to realise the problem is them. 30 millions government officers, and party middle rank functionaries. All want cushy government jobs, government Audi, shoulder boards, big titles, and none of the burden.

They had 10 years to make China a normal country under Hu, and Wen, and not backstabbing them instead, and sabotaging their reforms.

Second generation reds, kids of "elders," the "hardline" left camp all sat that 10 years having their hand in every money making opportunity in the country, and every matter of lobby politics. They could've moved mountains. Instead they fought the few worthy people in the party, and put Xi on the throne in hopes of riding him like they rode Hu.

Now they are the ones screaming murder when it is them getting purged. They didn't do so when their guobao was running the shop: stealing land from villages, kidnapping union leaders, busting petitioners, using their own sham corruption trials for power grabs, and generally making life bad for people genuinely wanting to stop their deeds, and fix the country.

When their *** is on fire, everybody becomes a liberal.

It's not a coincidence that it's Ren Zhiqiang, who is 100% a member of that old'boys club, who is making a story out of this now.

You sound like someone with a lot of connections within the CCP lol.

The can't help but drink, and lament of us not being able to live like in normal countries.

They had 10 years to make China a normal country under Hu, and Wen

What do they mean by 'normal countries', and why lament about it? Aren't they the ones having a cushy job and special privileges in such a system?

 

[Paul2]

You sound like someone with a lot of connections within the CCP lol.

Pff, 2 office holders, 5 policemen/policewomen out of my secondary class of ~50...

Not much.

normal countries

Aren't they the ones having a cushy job and special privileges in such a system?

Should ask them.

When it comes to material well being, China's top cities have surely beaten most of the world. What makes the country unlike "a normal country" in they eyes has little to do with that.

What people like them lament about is them all getting so high up on the ladder, and not getting anything they've imagined that comes with that. Instead they just got a life in chicken coop for a job, and a government Audi.

Big job didn't make big men out of them.

The logic is "If I am so good, high class guy in an important job, putting a lot of effort, is still a nobody, there must be something wrong with that system!" Like as if such people could've gotten ahead more if Xi, or even the Party itself wasn't there.

 

[vi-va]

I know a number of people with cushy government jobs, with whom I am kind of a childhood friend. They are constantly quietly bitching about the current state of the Party. The can't help but drink, and lament of us not being able to live like in normal countries.

The two had the best marks, and GK results in my secondary (with me coming third,) both thought in their youth of becoming "big men" through acing the exams, doing civil service, and getting a high post where "bigness," fame, and money should've befallen upon them.

I tell them "if you are such a big man you think you are, why can't you do anything about it with your government job?" He may well soon be the youngest section chief around, and still can do nothing.

If you want change so much, your best bet is to join the party, get into the thick of it. Take the fight there, seize the power, and be prepared to part with your head while trying.

People like that fail to realise the problem is them. 30 millions government officers, and party middle rank functionaries. All want cushy government jobs, government Audi, shoulder boards, big titles, and none of the burden.

They had 10 years to make China a normal country under Hu, and Wen, and not backstabbing them instead, and sabotaging their reforms.

Second generation reds, kids of "elders," the "hardline" left camp all sat that 10 years having their hand in every money making opportunity in the country, and every matter of lobby politics. They could've moved mountains. Instead they fought the few worthy people in the party, and put Xi on the throne in hopes of riding him like they rode Hu.

Now they are the ones screaming murder when it is them getting purged. They didn't do so when their guobao was running the shop: stealing land from villages, kidnapping union leaders, busting petitioners, using their own sham corruption trials for power grabs, and generally making life bad for people genuinely wanting to stop their deeds, and fix the country.

When their *** is on fire, everybody becomes a liberal.

It's not a coincidence that it's Ren Zhiqiang, who is 100% a member of that old'boys club, who is making a story out of this now.

Human nature.

Typical establishment behavior. Vested Interests are conservatives as always throughout history.

That's why we need 现代治国理政。

 

[Mista]

What people like them lament about is them all getting so high up on the ladder, and not getting anything they've imagined that comes with that. Instead they just got a life in chicken coop for a job, and a government Audi.

In a way that's actually good for the country. I mean, what do they expect of an office holder? To flaunt and abuse their power?

 

[Paul2]

In a way that's actually good for the country. I mean, what do they expect of an office holder? To flaunt and abuse their power?

I imagine, they've imagined much more when they were taking the exam. As if they could've done anything more as 30 something office holders anywhere else, be it a commie country, or not.

As I've said, those 30 million mid-level party workers, SOE and government officials always had all the cards on the table to tell the establishment to GTFO. They really had an opportunity to do anything they wanted with the country back when Hu was in power, including any reforms they now want. They didn't, but now they complain. If they built proper civil institutes 10 years ago, Xi wouldn't have been in Zhongnanhai today.

I will give people more food for though. Do you thing the abolition of the idiotic one child policy didn't come upon the agenda during Hu? No, it came at least 4-5 times. What you think was happening when Hu was trying to push that to the central committee? An objection from family planning commission bureaucrats, and pretty much a riot... because abolishing the policy would've meant them losing their jobs!

You think such a small fish like the family planning commission could've not interfered on such a high level? Nooooo, there was a time when even county committees were shutting down the State Council, especially when anything meant less job opportunities for their Bobos.